Ron Wisner is unreliable and unethical

[daniel_smith6]

A couple of emails said they couldn't get the link to work so here is the printed blurb from the eBay ad for this Wisner camera.

-------------------------------

 

This is a 14x17 Wisner View Camera in mint condition. The camera has been used only a few times in the studio and it is essential new. This camera has been extensively modified by Richard T. Ritter www.lg4mat.com who is a premiere large format specialist. The entire front standard has been replaced with a new one made out of brass allowing much more extensive movements. In addition the camera has been modified to allow changes of bellows and all the springs have been replaced with stronger ones. Overall this camera is far superior than the standard model sold by Wisner that is limited in many aspects. This package includes : 1)The 14x17 Camera modified as mentioned 2) Standard Bellows 3) Wide Angle Bellows fabricated for this camera 4) 10 14x17 wooden film holders manufactured by S+S these holders are all unused except for two used for testing the camera. These retail for 395 and piece at Quality Camera Company www.qualitycamera.com 5)Wisner lens board and adapter for technika lens board For the specs on the standard camera please visit www.wisner.com although as mentioned this camera is far superior than the original.

[pawel1]

I have to take exception to Daniel Smith's comments. In the interest of full disclosure, I have already acknowledged that I consider Ron Wisner a friend, but even if I did not know him, I would still have to beg to differ with Mr. Smith's comments. His logic just doesn't hold for me. Specifically, it is clear that the eBay seller bought a production camera from Ron, and then had it modified to certain specs that he desired. I am guessing the seller never considered ordering it from Ron to his desired final specs? With respect to the spring strength, my understanding is that in large part, it is a function of which holder the user will be putting into the camera. If one were to examine Ron's website, you will find that he even makes a springless back. I readily acknowledge the fact that Ron's deliveries sometimes (but not always) slip. In large part, it is because of the volume of his business, but even more importantly, because of his commitment to quality. I think it is unfair and unwarranted to buy a production camera when a modified one is desired, and then state that "...what too often has to be done to be done to make the Wisner camera work properly". To reiterate what I stated earlier - the fact that Ron has occasional scheduling issues and production delays does not make him unethical and dishonest as implied in this thread; one can get to the same outcome of delays via a strong customer orientation, and a genuine commitment to excellence, and too great a demand for his product.

[r_wisner]

You will note in this same string that Tracy Storer ("For the record, I really enjoy using my Wisner camera, 14x17 Traditional") has a 14x17 which is identical to one in question. He likes his and has had no reason to "modify" it. When Smith uses words like "often" and "to make them work properly" he is simply being sloppy in language and facts. We have made about half a dozen 14x17 cameras. We have shipped close to 5,000 some odd cameras in total. In 99.9% of cases when the owner would like a change, he calls me directly to request this or that modification, which we have done many times.

 

If, on the other hand, an owner opts to spend money with an outside shop to make modifications, he is at liberty to do so. I am not offended any more than Ford is when a teenager soups up his Mustang. As with the Ford, part or all of the warranty will be void. It is not surprising that such an owner will take ownership of and tout said "improvements" especially when he is hoping to interest another buyer on Ebay.

 

It is one thing for a guy to tinker with a successful production model, quite another to run a factory and deliver a finished camera with a competitive price balanced against all of the elements of design, engineering, features and benefits. I have vast experience doing this, having designed over forty distinct camera bodies.

 

It will interest you to know that in the time this thread has taken to run its course, I have sold a 16x20, an 11x14P, two 4x5s, and an 8x10 Traditional. Without exception, they all went to repeat customers, none of whom has ever seen fit to "modify" one of my designs to make it "useable."

 

It is very possible that an independent repair shop which has no affiliation with Wisner would not know that oversized front standards are available from us and have been for years. It is not really surprising, is it, that we have encountered photographers who insist on using ten pound lenses? Occasionally such a customer will requested the oversized front standard. Most know that it is not really necessary and that it comes at a weight cost. In such cases the customer becomes the "co-designer" of their camera with me and is involved in the same judgment calls regarding the compromise between cost, weight and performance. A solid brass front standard, for instance, comes at a great weight penalty. Some of my customers request them, most don't. 6061 aircraft aluminum offers a real weight advantage.

 

Some repairmen apparently are not aware that our springs are adjustable. They do not need to be replaced with "heavier" ones. Springs which are too stiff, especially on big cameras, become very tiring to the operator. Better to choose holders which don't have too much bowing so overly strong springs are not necessary.

 

Or go with our exclusive new option, no springs at all. On our larger cameras we offer the option of a sliding back in which the holders slide into a tongue and groove. They are completely light-tight, easy to use and you don't have to fight the springs. http://www.wisner.com/16x20.htm

 

Innovations such as this and our new sheepskin bellows (introduced in November) come from our constant quest for better cameras, better materials and easier function in the field. The P series of cameras came directly from input from one particular customer who has arthritis. It has become one of our most successful and popular models.

 

Best regards,

Ron Wisner

[william_littman]

I met Ron Wisner a few times at the NY photo expo plus, he seems like a no nonsense kind of guy, his products are well made and I'm not going to speak of what I know nothing about as would be specific circumstances, but I was impressed when the old general manager of Polaroid OEM told me that Ron folds his own bellows.

 

I believe he has greatly contributed to large format , Thank you

[daniel_smith6]

Ron and others.

I didn't write what I posted. It is a direct copy & paste from an ad for a Wisner camera for sale on eBay.

 

That said. I know of no camera maker other than Wisner who has custom camera repairmen regularly "fixing" their cameras so they will work as they were supposed to from the factory.These are fixes just to get the camera to work. Take that for what it is worth.

 

I have stated numerous times in these threads that Wisner "can" make an excellent camera when he wants to and he "can" provide excellent service as well. His bellows is very nice & the carry handle one of the best around.(Ihave even tried to buy a handle to put on my Deardorff) The sad truth is that it is hit and miss with both quality and service, with some ordering products & never receiving them, others waiting far longer than promised for products already paid for and still others ordering cameras that take many trips back to the factory in attempts to get them to work. This should not happen.

 

Ron. HIRE A PROFESSIONAL BUSINESS MANAGER!Then spend your time putting out a product that is what you advertise. That will stop these complaints. These complaints are facts, not some conspiracy theory. The complaints all follow the same idea... quality control in production and service are not up to par. We NEVER see these complaints with your competitors. There are only two names that come up for these things. A maker and a restorer. Change the business practices & produce the products you advertise. First time and every time and you will be spoken of as one who does what he says. The complaints of shoddy products & poor business practices will stop. Returns for service to repair what left the factory less than perfect will stop. Take some of that advertising money & use it to produce the camera quality you brag about. Most of us here know you can do it, we have seen some beautiful cameras come from your factory. But seeing some partly finished, with flawed finishes, levels way off, cameras that fall of the tripods as the mounts come out of the camera, backs falling off, wrong front standards on the cameras... all right from the factory, just doesn't cut it.

 

Tell people the truth when they call to order something. There is nothing wrong with that. Gandolfi does it. Dick Philips does it. Keith Canham does it. Even the low budget Shen Hao maker does it. Why not you? Be realistic & promise only what you can deliver & then produce it on time, every time and with the quality you promise.If you do that you will stop the talk of being 'a flim flam man'.

 

That is all we ask. Do it and these complaints will stop. Do that and your dealers won't be dropping Wisner cameras or telling customers they should buy another brand. Do that and you dealers won't be telling people to deal with them only on what they already have in their stores so that quality & delivery is assured. It can't be any simpler than that.

 

Even in this topic you don't get the customer or his camera problem right. How much attention do you pay to your business if you make an error such as that?

 

It is the little things that make the difference and you aren't doing them. That can be changed if you honestly work on it. Don't you get tired of these topics & apologizing & explaining failures? Do it right & the failures will be the exception, not ongoing topice on how Ron Wisner does business.

[rapidfixer]

It is unfortunate that Ron Wisner cannot refrain from making promises he can't keep. His motivation for this behavior is not entirely clear but seems to be 1)He doesn't know how to say no. He is, when all is said and done, a nice guy. 2)He doesn't want to lose a sale 3) If he told the truth about delivery dates he wouldn't be getting deposits in and would soon be unable to continue his operation. One thing is for sure, HE IS A LIAR. I for one am fed up with it. AM INVITING RESPONSES FROM PEOPLE WHO WANT TO PARTICIPATE IN A CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT. I am Bruce Cahn at --

brucescameras@aol.com

[philippe_metayer]

In December 2004, I emailed sales@winser.com an enquiry regarding the 8X10 cameras. Within minutes of sending the email, I got a personal phone call from Mr. Wisner himself. I was impressed, and placed an order on the phone immedialtely for an 8X10. I paid in full right away.

In February 2005, I asked Wisner through an email, if I could cancel my order. I got again an immediate reply. He said that he could not cancel my order because my camera was a special order. He could however put it on consignment for me. Not knowing how long it might take to sell on consignment, I told Wisner to proceed with my order.

At the end of February 2005, I asked Wisner for a date on the delivery of the camera. He said it would be ready in 3 weeks, which meant mid-March. From there on, it has been impossible to get hold of Wisner, but finally, at the end of April, he answered his 800 number. He told me that the camera would be ready to ship on May 13, that he was a very busy man, and goodbye.

No camera yet. Since the beginning of June, I have been emailing him daily regarding the delivery of the camera. No answers.

Cerainly, I have no one to blame but myself. In my defence though, I will add that I opted for a Wisner camera because of the reviews his cameras get in the photographic press(magazines). I did not know about this site until a friend and photographer emailed me the link to this site.

In retrospect, I would not buy a Wisner camera. I agree with many commentators that Wisner should hire a business manager.

[philippe_metayer]

Here is a typical answer from Ron Wisner to my emails. Ron never calls back later on in the day. I have had several of these replies during the past months.

 

Ron,

What will it be? Tell me now.

Philippe Metayer

 

>From: RWisn@aol.com

>To: metayerphilippe@msn.com

>Subject: Re: 8X10 black field Expedition for Metayer

>Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:46:37 EDT

>

>

>In a message dated 6/23/2005 9:48:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,

>metayerphilippe@msn.com writes:

>

>Ron,

>

>I cannot wait any longer for the camera I ordered in December and which you

>promised to deliver at the beginning of March. Last time I talked to you on

>the phone, you said it would be ready on May 13. I just cannot operate like

>this. I have deadlines too, and my time is as valuable as yours.

>

>You may if you wish substitute with any other 8X10 camera you have in stock

>right now and ship immediately, or refund me in full right now. No more

>games.

>

>Philippe Metayer

>

>

>

>I hav just returned from travel. I am checking your camera now. Will get

>back to you later today.

>

>Ron

[philippe_metayer]

I finally got my refund from Wisner. What an ordeal!

[tom_johnston4]

I realize this thread is old but I want to describe my experiences with Ron Wisner for the benefit of those who may find this while doing research before buying a camera.

 

I ordered a Wisner 4x5" Technical Field camera field camera from B&H. I was leaving on a five week photographic trip and B&H absolutely promised me that I would have the camera before I left. Based on that promise, I sold my other 4x5" camera. The day came to leave on the trip and the camera hadn't arrived. B&H had, despite their assurances, accidentally sold the camera they reserved for me to another customer. Of course, that is not Ron's fault but what happened after that is.

 

B&H felt very bad for their mistake and because I was a good and long-time customer, they offered to give me a discount on the camera to make up for their mistake and also to keep me from buying it elsewhere. That was between B&H and me. When Ron found out about that arrangement, he told me that he would not allow B&H to give me a discount!!!!???? He said that if I got a discount, everyone would want a discount. (As if everyone would have experienced the same screw-up that I did.) Then Ron tried to talk me into canceling my discounted order from B&H and ordering it at full price from him. It gets even more bizarre! I refused to buy it from Ron when I was going to get a discount from B&H and Ron did not like that at all. The deal I made with B&H was absolutely none of Ron's business. It was between B&H and myself and the discount came out of B&H's profit margin. It cost Ron nothing. Well, he didn't like the fact that I wouldn't play along with him so he held up the order to B&H. After numerous calls, B&H finally managed to get my camera from Wisner. It was sent to them by Wisner specifically for me and it was then sent to me. The camera was loaded with defects! It's as if it was some kind of mock-up or prototype. Here is a list of just some of the defects it had: 1) There was a huge gouge of wood out of one of base cross-pieces. It happened after the finish was put on, obviously, because the finish was gouged off too. 2) The front standards had never received the shellac coating and they immediately turned black. 3) The levels were off by at least 10 or 15 degrees! It's as if a blind person just epoxied them in. They weren't even remotely close to being right. 4) The front centering dots were not on the standards. 5) The bag bellows were twisted in their frames. 6) The front latches were at wild angles revealing terrible and careless workmanship and one would not even latch. There were other defects too but I just can't remember them right now. All of these defects made an absolute mockery of Ron's claim that each camera receives a complete inspection. You didn't even have to inspect the camera to see the defects!

 

I contacted Ron and, to his credit, he offered to replace the camera. When I got the replacement, I found that two of three lens boards didn't fit at all. So much for his humidity control! I called Ron and he told me to sand them down myself. He never even offered to exchange them. Why should someone have to modify the lens boards that they buy from Wisner to make them work? I fixed them but not only did they have to be sanded on the sides but the step-up that fits the camera had to be carved.

 

Although my experiences with Wisner were lousy, the camera itself is nice. However, he greatly exaggerates his quality claims. Also there are several very easy changes that he could make to the camera that would make it better. Here are just a couple suggestions:

 

1) The tiny screws that hold the camera latches in place are prone to ripping out if the dark cloth slides across them. In fact, that has happened to me several times. That could be fixed by simply using a screw that accepts a nut and washer on the other side. Dark cloths do slide across the latches so they should be installed with that in mind.

 

2) The ground glass protector simply falls off the camera if you have a Fresnel installed. Ron should design it so it locks or latches in place. As it is, I have to use elastic bands to keep it from falling off. A simple latch mechanism would do it.

 

3) Despite Ron's claims that shellac finishes are the best for brass, that simply is not true. I have been a woodworker building museum quality period furniture for over 35 years and I know something about this. Believe it or not, Ron, advances have made in finishing technology over the last few hundred years. Shellac is beautiful for wood that is protected (often by a top finish of varnish), but it is very poor when it comes to moisture resistance. Your fingers have moisture in them. The brass on my camera started tarnishing soon after receiving the camera as anyone who knows about shellac would expect. A far better finish is common modern lacquer. I have brass hardware on furniture that I have built decades ago that I lacquered and it looks like it did the day I finished it. (One of these days I'm going to remove all the shellac on the brass of my camera and lacquer it properly.) Think about this: Lacquer is used on cars that have to withstand extreme weather, washings, etc. Shellac is not the finish for brass. Not in this century! If anyone doubts this, simply do a little internet research on the properties of shellac.

 

4) Other tiny screws on the camera should be backed by a brass nut and washer where possible. A tiny screw in wood that is about 1/4" thick with no nut and washer is asking for trouble. I find them loose and about to fall off regularly on my camera.

 

5) Get whoever it is that makes the bag bellows at Wisner to get some glasses. I know I am not the only one with twisted bellows because others have complained about this. However, the twist does not prevent the bellows from being used. It just looks bad and it indicates careless assembly.

 

6) The frames for the bellows are one application where modern materials should be used. High impact modern plastic would be much better. As it is, Ron's frames are made of four very thin and brittle pieces of wood glued together with lap joints in the corner. My bag bellows frames have simply fallen apart. The only way to avoid that would be to store them in a well-fitted protective box of some kind so if Ron insists on using lousy wooden frames for his application, he should at least supply a box to protect such a delicate arrangement. I am a traditionalist by nature but there are some things that should take advantage of modern materials. Ron could have infinitely stronger and almost indestructible one piece modern bellows frames made for his camera that would cost less than his delicate wooden ones. A photographer does not need to have his equipment fall apart in the field.

 

After all that, and in fairness to Ron, I do like the camera and I am satisfied with it but it does not live up to his quality claims.

Ron has a real problem with how he handles customers and his quality control.

 

 

[daniel_smith6]

Has Wisner opened his 'new' factory or is he now completely out of business? Did he ever make good on all the work he had not completed/orders not filled/repairs not done?

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

Who, at this point, would be crazy enough to order from him?