entry level competely manual nikon for my son

[ishik_tuna]

my high school son is taking a photography course next month.

i would like to get him a completely manual nikon (TTL metering

acceptable but not required, should not have any auto aperture or

shutter). roughly a F2.8 35 or 50 mm lenses (thereabouts)

 

what would you folks recommend as a reliable, used Nikon option with

these features. looking to spend less than 200

[elliot]

Nikon FM with a 50mm f1.8 or a 35mm f2. The FM2n also might be a good camera if you can get a good deal on a body.

[tristanlaing]

If you must have completely manuel, you are limited to the FM or the FM2. If you are willing to have a camera that is both manuel OR apature priority, there are many FE, FG, FG-20 F3 bodies out there. Don't worry about "E" series lenses, they are excellent. All nikon bodies have TTL metering (except certain prisms on the nikon F, and the rangefinders before that). However, the FM, even the FM2 do NOT have Flash TTL metering, something you get with the FE, and I believe with the FG aswell.

[Spearhead]

What does the teacher recommend? That's usually the first thing to check when picking a camera for a course. It doesn't mean the teacher picks the thing you would pick, but it does help to make sure the student is on equal footing with the others.

[ishik_tuna]

i think a FN or FN2 will be a good choice for the course. i want something that will continue to interest him after the course is over, and is basically a well built vintage camera.

 

if he sticks with it..he's got a camera system he can expand on if he wants. i assume there are numerous vintage nikor lenses he can acquire..if he doesn't, we could presumably sell the camera and recoup a good portion of the money....

 

i'm a "leicaholic" a phrase someone on this forum coined....originally, i bought him a vintage Leicaflex Sl...decided to get it CLA'd then decided to keep it for myself!

 

maybe "Leicaholic" is appropriate, even though i prefer the appellation "Leicaphile"...

[ShunCheung]

It is the Nikon FM (M as in manual) and FM2, not FN. And there is also the even older Nikkormat FT3, etc., but keep in mind that only the FT3 is AI compatible and they have weird controls, e.g. the shutter speeds are set on a ring near the lens mount.

 

Is the instructor suggesting a manual film SLR? I too would check what other students use in this course. For example, if most people are using digital and they get to watch and critique their results immediately, using film can be very frustrating in comparison. If everybody is using film, it would be a totally different situation.

[ishik_tuna]

yes, i meant FM, and yes, it is a all film course (B&W film, self-processed)

 

looking at the canon AE as well with a 1.8 50mm

[andrew_hall1]

The Canon AE-1 is not "completely manual" - it has shutter priority AE, hence the name.

[russ_butner___portland__or]

Nikon FM !

[andrew_hall1]

>only the FT3 is AI compatible

 

The FM/FM2 are an Ai cameras. So are EL2 and FE, though they both offer AE.

 

>and they have weird controls, e.g. the shutter speeds are set on a ring near the lens mount.

 

Such "weird controls" can also be found on the Olympus OM series. The user does not have to remove the index finger from the shutter button while adjusting shutter speeds. This is a much better (to me at least) arrangement than the Leica style (which, of course, Nikon followed except for the Nikkormat FT series.)

[andrew_hall1]

>even the FM2 do NOT have Flash TTL metering, something you get with the FE

 

The FE2 has TTL flash metering, the FE does not. (Yet I don't think ishik wants this feature, considering his "completely manual" requirement.)

[david_kelly1]

If you buy an FM or early FM2, budget $25-50 top have the foam

seals and mirror bumper strip replaced unless this has been

done by the seller, as these will usually have deteriorated after

two and a half decades.

[david_h._hartman]

Ill recommend the Nikon FE2. Yes, it has aperture

preferred automation but one can ignore that easily. This camera

handles much like the FM2n, another camera I recommend, but it

offers standard TTL flash while the FM2n does not. The FM2 is

very much like the FM2n but the flash sync is 1/200 while the

others are 1/250. The top shutter speed of these camera is 1/4,000th.

High shutter speeds are really nice if one would like to use fast

lenses, f/2.0 to f/1.4 at wide apertures in bright light, also

with medium fast lenses like the 105/2.5 or 135/2.8. All of the

cameras below have maximum shutter speeds of 1/1,000th second.<br>

<br>

If the above are too expensive Ill recommend the Nikon EL2.

Again this camera has aperture preferred automation but its

so easy to ignore. The EL2 does <u>not</u> offer standard TTL

flash. One advantage of the Nikon EL2 shared with the above and

not with the following is Silicone Blue or Silicone Photodiode

metering. The Nikon FM belongs somewhere in this paragraph. It

has gallium photodiodes in its meter, similar, probably better

and I think more expensive than silicone photodiodes. These

meters are very accurately calibrated and react very quickly.<br>

<br>

The Nikkormat FT3 accepts AI, AIS and AF/AF-D Nikkors. Has no TTL

flash and uses slower Cds metering cells. The Nikkormat FT2 (also

Nikkormat EL and ELW) accepts pre-AI Nikkors and lens indexing is

via the old f/5.6 Rumba. It also accepts AI, AIS, etc. but stop

down meters via the DOF preview button is required.<br>

<br>

I would not worry about aperture preferred automation. Even if its

used the photographer is kept quite aware of the roll of the

aperture for esthetic control and its relation to the shutter

speed. I see no advantage in using auto-flash (formerly auto-thyristor

flash) and particularly manual flash until manual ambient

photography is well in hand. All of the Nikons that offer TTL

flash have aperture preferred automation.<br>

<br>

For a lens I recommend a 50/1.8 AI or AIS (early) or a 50/2.0 AI.<br>

<br>

Hope this helps,<br>

<br>

Dave Hartman.

[john_liu5]

Nikon FG bodies sell for $20-50. If a film camera that has auto and manual exposure modes is acceptable, this is a very cheap Nikon route. Could probably pick one up with a cheap lens, maybe an E series, for appx $100 at a swap meet.

 

My wife just took her first photo class using a FG w/ 35-105mm f3.5-4.5 AIS. Was a perfect camera for the purpose.

[edward_h]

Seems like nobody else has asked this question, so it looks like I'll have to: why are you forcing your son to use primitive technology?

 

Do you realize that he'd learn much faster if he didn't have to wait for the results and wasn't afraid of trying things out because of the price per round?

 

I'm figuring you'se is one of those people who got a manual camera when you were young (there being nothing automatic at the time), played around shooting perhaps a roll or two every week and now want to teach your kid the same way you learnt. That's not being very nice. Photography isn't about waiting and philosophizing about the rounds you just shot; it's about getting a good picture. Timing and framing. Those two things can be learnt either with a manual camera that forces you to limit your shooting to about a frame every hour (due to calculations and guessing the light and what have you) or with a digital camera that can tell you if what you chose, be it P, M, S or A-mode was correct.

 

The manual camera will cost your son two years of his life and there's no guarantee that he'll actually know anything after two years. The digital will teach the kid what works and what doesn't within 6 months. It took me 6 months to produce professional quality results, I figure since your kid has more than my two braincells he'll do it quicker.

 

But shit. It's your choice.

 

PS: Buy the kid a manual camera and he'll have to get a new one when he finds out that AF is nice, metering is nice and that there are cameras that can shoot several hundred rounds without having to take a timeout to change rolls. Do you think he'll be shooting sports and weddings with that manual camera? I don't...

Buy him a proper digital camera (if he's serious about photography) and he can take the SAME camera he learnt with to the wedding and use the SAME habits to make some money, compared to having to get a new camera and get used to it before shooting something proper.

 

Your mind is probably made up already, so I'm probably wasting my time, yo.

[ilkka_nissila]

I think 99% of digicam users don't have a clue about aperture or shutter speed, nor do they care. They may laugh when the subject has a weird expression and red eyes because of the flash that is too close to the optical axis of the lens, they'll play around and get frustrated because the timing of the exact moment of exposure is impossible to control. I would never want to use such a camera. People who are introduced photography with such toys are unlikely to be serious about it in the future either. Just my two cents.

[mondiani]

I completely second Edward H. If you want your son to be hooked by photography just buy him a cheap p&s digital camera. It is the way I started some years ago. If you want him to become a camera-what-ever-brand-phile buy him a vintage camera.<p>

 

Why start the hard way? You already expecting him to fail and to resale the camera or to keep it for you.<p>

 

It is your son, your money, his time, your expectations: you decide.

[michael_meyer]

i think edward's totally off the mark--first because he isn't answering the simple

question from ishik, second because he's ignoring the class requirements and third

because i just think he's wrong, flat out wrong.

 

while a digi may let one see something immediately, it also lets one ignore the

process. and, process is critical to understanding photography. when everything is

done manually, it reinforces every other step of the process and lends the student a

clear understanding of everything that happens in the photographic process--from

film to exposure to development to printing. all things being perfect, students would

start with view cameras, and then move to smaller formats, as this will only further a

student's connection to the process.

 

as an aside, i briefly partnered with a terrible photographer who didn't understand a

thing about the process, either conceptually or technically. he shot with a d70 but

preferred his sony f707--because, though he never said this, it isolated him from his

own ignorance. his photography would have improved tenfold if he understood what

was going on inside his cameras.

 

and so, back to the original question, i'd recommend any of the fm/fe line. while the

fe and fe2 do have aperture priority, they also have match needle manual that is very

capable. the fe2 also will have ttl and allow your son more space in which to grow.

same goes for the new fm3a.

 

you mentioned lenses--a 50 f1.8 is a good place to start. the 50mm f1.8 i had on my

first camera of my own, a canon ae1, was one of the best lenses i've ever shot with. in

the classes i teach, i generally recommend that students get a 50 f1.8. whatever you

do, get him a fixed focal length--it will be the best way to learn about perspective,

and the importance of moving closer or further from a subject.

 

oh, and toss a domke strap on there. i like domke straps so i'm going to recommend

adding one to whatever camera you buy your son.

 

best of luck to him.

 

-m

[ishik_tuna]

"why are you forcing your son to use primitive technology?"

 

The course is about B&W photography...they develop their own film and make prints, the camera they use is supposed to be manual focus and manual aperture and manual focus. I'm not "forcing" anyone to do anything.

 

I applaud the teacher for encouraging buddy young photographers to think about how they make their images.

 

I suppose it's easier to just post a response to a thread (kinda like "point and shoot", eh?) than actually spend the time to read a thread before you post this sort of nonsense.

 

or maybe it's just Leica envy.......

[todd peach seattle, washi]

I'll suggest one that folks rarely consider: an F2 Photomic. The base price for a chrome 'bargain' body is about $200, and if you're willing to accept one with a broken self timer, engraving, or a cracked eyepiece, they go for cheaper than that at KEH. That leaves you a little budget to cover a non-AI 50mm.

 

I know if my kid had the requirements you state, that's what I'd hand them off of my own shelf.

 

And to speak to the others in the thread above: yes, I would choose an F2 for weddings (and I do on a regular basis, albeit not for my 'day job') and even for indoor sports. It all depends on the person involved. An F2 may well be your kid's camera for the next twenty years.

[eric friedemann]

My camera store sits in the middle of several affluent school districts and has a college nearby with a huge photo program. As such, we sell a ton of entry level SLRs to Photo I students.

 

 

The thing is this. Most kids think photo classes will be easy. They are annoyed by the workloads and lack the patience for all-manual cameras. As such, at the end of the class, the manual camera is put in a closet and is not used again.

 

 

With this in mind, if you must get your son an all-manual camera and it has to be a Nikon, I would advise getting him the inexpensive Cosina-made FM10 for just over $200 with a 35-70mm lens:

 

 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=112196&is=USA

 

 

A camera that is much more likely to get used even if your son only takes one photo class is the Pentax ZX-M with a 35-80mm lens. For the same price as the FM10, the ZX-M is better-built than the FM10 and has manual, auto-shutter, auto-aperture and program modes. This is a camera your son will use after the Photo I class is over, regardless of whether he retains anything he learns in the class:

 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=145123&is=REG

 

 

The ZX-M can also be purchased in a kit with a basic 50mm f/2.0 lens:

 

 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=161594&is=REG

[stephenedwards]

> > "why are you forcing your son to use primitive technology?"

 

 

I would assume it is because if the camera does it all for his son, all he will learn in the end is that the camera isn't perfect and he is left with no better idea on how to fix it. I would second the recommendation of the FG. There are many on the used market that have received little use, are in excellent condition and go for low prices. It does have Aperture Priority, though.

[johnw63]

I would suggest the FG as well. They are not as in demand as the full F series cameras, and so the price can be very low. Yes, it does have a program and AE setting, but that can be left off. It has TTL flash and is rather small. The down side is the flash sych is lower than the other F series, 1/90th I think, and the max shutter speed is 1/1000th. Of course the venerable Pentax K-1000 can be purchased cheaply. You just don't get all the lens choices.

[michael_walter1]

I think it is good to learn on a fully manual camera. Back in '69 (in 'Nam) I had a Ricoh Singlex TLS. I learned how to work the beast,as well as devlop and print my own film. I drifted away from photography for quite a while. Had a series of P&S cameras, including a very nice Rollei. Last year I bought a Canon Rebel Ti. It has a lot a flexibility. Nice light camera. However, I miss the old manual. I bought a few Ricohs from EBay over the last couple years. After 3 times being told that the light meter works, and finding our it didn't, I gave up on them.

 

Last week my brother-in-law told me he wants to sell his old Nkon FT2 (with lenses). We struck a deal for $50. I am anxious now to get back to dinosaur days. I will use the Canon "auto" features for people pictures, etc. I will use the Nikon for stuff that requires a bit for work.

 

I think your son will appreciate learning on a manual. Composition, etc takes a long time to learn, irrespective of the camera you use.

 

My .02 worth.

[ishik_tuna]

Thanks for all of you Nikonians who made useful comments..i just purchased a vintage Nikon FG with a 1.8 50mm lens.

 

looks perfect. has new seals and bumper strip.

 

while full automatic, digital certainly reduces the mental effort in taking photographs, it also strips away some of the fun and creativity that photography has to offer. Photography is so much more than "framing" the image, and "selecting" the moment. You can isolate the point of interest by changing depth of field (aperture control), you can add an element of movement with a slow shutter speed. You can utilize bokeh to make a mundane image become magical. Different lense have different personalities for heaven's sake!! you never hear the all digital boys talking about lens like that...

 

All of this is lost with auto everything! And if you start out with the mentality that you don't need to know or want to know how to select aperture or shutter speed for yourself, how will you ever learn? by scrolling through 5 layers of menues on your LCD screen to turn off the auto features and figure out what the light meter is telling you? While a digital SLR may allow you switch from auto to manual easily, i'm not away of a digital slr that sells for $120.

 

you loose out on the amazing resolution of slide film....try projecting a digital image to 40 feet in width on a screen..

 

tell me you've never had your digital camera battery run out..

 

driving an automatic transmission car is certainly easier to learn, and assures you of a smooth ride, you also miss out on the intrinsic fun of driving a stick shift car.

 

for the record, i have film cameras, multiple digital cameras, a slide scanner (nikon!), and enjoy using each of them for different reasons.

 

p.s.,i'm even looking into trying a medium format film camera (oh the horror! obsolete! out-dated!).