Best Low Light Candid Portrait Affordable Smallish Lens?

[mark_amos]

I know every word in my post is relative. I'll clarify. I've been

happy with my 35 summicron ASPH as my main carry-around lens for my

classic M6. Its great for showing people in context to an

environment. Its no mystery why people debate about whether the 50 or

35 is the best for an M because I find that with care, so much can be

done with and between these focal lengths. I've carried a 40 cron-C

on a CL, and it might be the very best solution except the frameline

issue, so I use the 35 and enjoy the sharpness at 2. But inside some

unattractive interiors, like people's homes at holidays, more

isolation than a 40 is useful. I have a 90 Elmar-C (I heartily

recommend), and f4 is fine even for overcast days with Kodachrome 64,

but I want more speed. I've studied the options for several months

and just about determined that a used late 50 summicron would do the

trick, but then I started reading about this occasional flare issue.

 

I've identified/decided on problems/issues with the alternatives: 50

1.5 Voigtlander-not Leica,E.Puts mentions decentering, 50 lux M-still

not cheap used and not as good at 2 as the cron, 50 lux M ASPH-would

be perfect, but $$$, 75 2.5 VC-little bigger, not Leica, not very

fast, 75 lux-blocks finder a lot, expensive even used, heavy, Leica

90s-TE disease, summicron is not smallish and gets hammered all the

time for questionable wide open sharpness, APO would be awesome, but

expensive and not really compact, I've got a 90-C. The Nikon or Canon

options don't seem to be available readily enough for me to move in.

 

I know its questionable to reduce these great lenses to these little

issues, but the 50 cron M seems to be the best balance of a super

sharp, affordable, compact, fast enough for semi-isolated get-a-

portrait-when-needed lens. Is there a better answer? Is the 50 cron M

a good solution in spite of the "flare"? If you tell me the flare is

a problem, then what is better for what I've described/implied as my

need?

 

Thank you very much. I've been enjoying photo.net for years, and this

is my first post. (I checked the past posts before posting.)

[jorge]

<i>>>Is the 50 cron M a good solution in spite of the "flare"?<<</i>

<br><br>

Mark, what flare?

<br><br>

I've had one of the current Summicron-M 50's for over a year and lots of rolls and don't find it to be flare-prone in the very least.

<br><br>

Here are a couple of examples with strong backlighting or highlights in the frame.

<br><br>

<center>

<a href="http://www.photo.net/photo/2319018"><img src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/2319018-md.jpg"></a>

<br><br>

<a href="http://www.photo.net/photo/1937609"><img src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/1937609-md.jpg"></a>

</center>

<br><br>

Follow the links for details...

[roger_michel]

#1 you have disqualified so many lenses on your short list for silly reasons. what does it matter if a lens is "nonleica" if it will do the job. certainly any of the VC lenses will have far better measured MTF performance than an older SC summicron.

 

#2 the flare issue with the summicron is way overblown. use a shade and forget it.

 

#3 i doubt you will get the significant difference in isolation that you are looking for -- either in terms of what is captured in the frame or in terms of DOF/selective focus isolation -- with a 50mm.

 

i heartily recommend the VC 75 2.5. it is a fabulaous lens, tack sharp, quite fast, and admirably compact. in fact, if there were one lens i could compel leica to build, it would be a 75/2.5 (indeed there have been rumors for years that leica is going to build such a lens). it is a great focal length nad make the perfect compliment to your 35mm.

 

after that, a 90AA would be next on my list of recommendations. but it is quite heavy, and obviously out of the question if $$$ are scarce.

 

get the 75mm and call it a day.

[sk_szekiat]

I second the 75mm VC. I would say it is the most under rated lens of all time. It is so sharp

wide open and the bokeh is really quite good. And its cheap too. My only regret is selling

it when i took a small break from RF a few years ago. I've always thought the perfect

pairing would be a 35mm and a 75mm or a 90mm and a 50mm. 35 and 50 is really too

close. 75mm is wonderful for those 1/2 body portraits taken about 2-3m from your

subject. It allows you to maintain a certain amount of intamacy with the subject and allow

you to talk to him/her. For me, being able to maintain communication with the subject is

dead important as it makes her focus on me. I use a 90mm these days but it doesn't have

the same effect as i find myself doing what i call 'stand off' photography. If i try talking,

the subject can barely here me and the effect is lost as she strains to hear me. I'm saving

up for the 75mm lux or i'd get another VC.

[mark_amos]

First of all, I can't say enough of how cool it is to get thoughts/responses from knowledgeable people after only reading for years. Thank you.

 

Jorge, I accept what you are telling me-there isn't flare to worry about, especially when I think of all the other good by occasionally flaring lenses I have enjoyed such as my Rollei 35 tessar, Retina IIa Xenon and others.

 

 

Roger, I have a VC 15 Heliar and a lot of Nikon MF SLR equipment, so I'm not absolutely prudish about a lens being a Leica, but I prefer Leica for my M6 when/if its the best solution and affordable-meaning readily available excellent used for under $1000. I understand the limits of the 50 for isolation, but I'm concerned the 75 2.5 is not quite enough because I've found myself shooting the 35 cron ASPH at 2 with 800 ISO at 1/8th braced on my elbows on a chair back, and I think the 75 would need/want even higher SS. Its also larger than a 50. I have an 85 1.4 Nikkor I use on an FM3a, but Leica is my small/best companion stuff, so size is very important to me.

[johnny massey]

Yes, the VC75, wish I could show you a 5400ppi scan.<div></div>

[sk_szekiat]

The VC75mm is really not that big. Granted it is long but i find that just gives me a better

grip to focus. Depending on the situation, f2 to f2.5 is about 2/3 of a stop and an f2 lens

will not really help you. At the end of the day, IMHO, at such low shutter speeds, whether a

photo appears sharp or not really depends on how large you print. I think u will find that

anything below 1/10 and enlargements will always exhibit a bit of motion blur. I would

consider using higer speed films. For b/w, ISO1600 is quite acceptable these days and i

regularly use ISO3200. For color, press800 performs superbly at 1600. This will improve

not jut your portrait shots but all your other shots as well. Honestly, bang for buck, the

75mm is the way to go. If cash is not an issue, 75mm lux (like me) or a 50mm noct. Solve

all your problems once and for all.

I often call the 50mm the neither here nor there lens. It is good for travelling and remains

the lens that stays on the camera while i am walking about. It allows me to do reasonable

tele by taking 1-2 steps closer or 1-2 step back for wideness. However, it doesn't do very

well as a portrait lens as i find sometimes the min focussing distance is a hiderance. if you

must get a 50mm, can i suggest the DR then.

[john_morris4]

I wouldn't call the VC 75 "fast", as roger did, but it is "affordable" and "smallish".

 

It is fast to focus, in case that's what roger meant. It handles nicely, is barely bigger than a 50mm Summicron, and doesn't block the frame lines. Very handy paired with a 35, as others have suggested.

 

The attached picture at least shows that the background can be attractive with this lens. Probably f/4 or f/5.6.<div></div>

[mark_amos]

I've always thought a 75 would be great. I understand what SK says about the relationship to the subject-staying in touch/communication, but the VC seems a slight compromise in size and speed, but maybe that's o.k-or maybe its the best one could ask for unless Leica makes a cheap small 75 summicron one day (not likely?).

 

I carry a camera in my small briefcase every day. How safe for flare is it to leave the hood off the VC 75? (Impressive cyclist shot.)

[johnny massey]

Finger out<div></div>

[mark_amos]

John, I see the light coming in from across the street, but I can't quite tell if you were in the edge of a shadow when you shot. Did you take this without the hood?

[sk_szekiat]

What hood?

Oh u mean the lens hood....lost that a long time ago.

Honestly, it is not a very flary lens. Of course the usual rules still apply, no point light

source in front, etc. But if u take care then its fine. I find the hood sometimes helps to

protect the lens from damage though. Also, when shooting in low light, remove all filters.

U won't believe how much light a UV can cut down, when every singe bit of it matters.

 

http://www.photo.net/photo/830621

 

I shot that one in bright sunshine, without a hood. Sorry for the poor quality but it was

done a long time ago and the scan is from a 8R print.

[paul_neuthaler]

Why am I falling more and more in love with the collapsible 50 Summicron?

[max_fun]

How about a 90mm pre-Asph Summicron? It's faster than the 75mm VC and takes

gorgeous portraits. Despite having the 100mm Apo R, I simply can't bare to go without my

90mm 'Cron.

[johnny massey]

I think I was shooting downwards to the point where no sunlight would have struck even the inside of the supplied hood so I dunno about flare if that is your concern. I have to say that this lens has been severely under-used but that's more to do with the kind of stuff I do.

[mark_amos]

Paul has a point about a collapsible 50 summicron. I know where I can get one, but I haven't thought it was highly regarded for sharpness, but I know this is relative to one's expectation. It would be hard to beat as the shortest fast near-portrait lens, wouldn't it?

 

I've considered the pre-APO 90 cron, but I have the idea that its a little big whereas I might accept the size on the APO because of its acclaim. There is this whole balancing of aspects. Whenever I start getting tempted by these other 90s, and even the 135, I remind myself that size is a huge issue. I've been known to take my camera in the grocery store or have it on my shoulder at the table in a nice restaurant.

 

What I am really after is what I've heard the 75 lux called: a great party lens-for focal length and not necessarily size, I suppose. I've wondered whether I could do this with a 50 cron. Having mainly a 50 and a 35 might seem silly, (I still have my 90-C) but consider that some people carry different versions of the SAME focal length because of differing fingerprints!

 

I've heard it said (I'm sorry I don't remember who to credit.) that he problem with having more than one lense is that you always have the wrong one on the camera. I appreciate this "perspective". Maybe if you have just a 35 and a 50 with you, either lens can do what you want, but with slightly different emphasis, so you shoot with the one on the camera until you can switch if you feel like it-which is what I probably do often anyway. Sound rediculous?

[les_lammers]

A collapsible Cron would be plenty sharp for what you want it for. Ppl

do not want to see all their 'cosmetic defects' in portraits.

[__jon__]

>Jorge M. Treviño , dec 30, 2004; 03:55 p.m.

 

>I've had one of the current Summicron-M 50's for over a year and lots of rolls and don't

find it to be flare-prone in the very least.

 

Same here--I use mine in dance/theater with hot, directional lighting, and it handles flare

better than any other lens I've used. I'm quite amazed sometimes that it handles what it

does.

[john_morris4]

"[A collapsible 'cron] would be hard to beat as the shortest fast near-portrait lens, wouldn't it?"

 

A 50mm f/1.4 Nikkor comes close, and it's a stop faster. The Nikkor is certainly smaller when ready for use (the cron is longer when extended). The Nikkor will focus to half a meter, too.

 

If you're interested in the 50mm Nokton (for low-light, candid, and affordable), note that lots of people use it without its shade. The shade makes it seem a lot bigger. I use it with an empty filter ring on the front, just to keep the glass from being quite so exposed. I got a "Canon Ultrasonic" 52mm snap-on cap for it (for the size and the irony).

 

I had both the Nikkor and the Nokton for a while. The Nikkor is great, but I kept the Nokton because I like the smoother backgrounds better. Also, the Nokton vignettes less wide open.

[rick_koo]

Mark-

 

This (assuming I've correctly attached the photo) is about the worst flare I've been able to coax out of my 50 'Cron.... And there was even (gasp) a UV filter on the front. Your tolerance may differ, but I'm okay with this performance considering I was basically trying to burn a hole in the shutter.<div></div>

[larry_kincaid1]

Since you say "Low light Candid Portrait," you should abandon the use of "sharp" as your measure of a "good lens," which is what you seem to be doing. You don't always want extreme sharpness in a portrait anyway. Low light would lead you to the 50mm 1.4 lux or the 75mm Lux. If you're thinking about more than headshots, say various types of environmental portraits of head and shoulders or more, then the 50mm Lux would be fine. I just got a used one because forum members here promised me it had better bokeh than the cron, had less flare, and produced the "Leica glow" more often (if you believe in that. . . I do.) The 75 Lux is also an "old" formula which seems better suited for portraits. There are many examples posted here that prove that point. Ideally, you'd get both Lux lenses; or one at a time to see how you like them. Money is another issue altogether.

[johnny massey]

Sharpness? How about this perverse combination? Sorry for dust, not a user frame.<div></div>

[mark_amos]

Rick, I do not see flare in your skyline image that I could call objectionable. The flare I worry about (maybe its not called flare-maybe its glare) is the kind that results in an overall reduction of contrast and haziness over a noticeable part of the image. The criticisms or comments I've read about flare in the 50 cron were from light actually just outside of the image area, but I feel fairly convinced from the thread that its a non-issue, issue. My 35 cron asph has been regarded as very resistant to flare, and I've had very good experience with it in that regard, but E. Puts says "its not immune to it", so I'll accept that the 50 cron M is the best 50 f2 around, period, although it must come with its own characteristics. I conclude that if 50 is tight enough and 2 is fast enough, then the 50 cron is it,

BUT,then Larry brings up the Luxes.

 

I paid about $1000 for my 35 cron ASPH w/ caps-hood, which is about my dollar limit, but I was willing because for archi and landscape, it didn't/doesn't seem to be a compromise in any way-not big-39mm, almost consistent performance at all aps, no/very low flare..and..the low flare works well for me for low light people-environment shots.

 

Larry makes a good point in saying that for my low light candids, maybe the previous Leica look of the wide open M luxes would make sense, but somehow paying so much for a lens that is recognized as soft wide open doesn't make sense, and it continues to give VCs at least some kind of appeal.

 

(Truth be told, even with the size, I think I'd love the 75 lux, so maybe its not about the money. Its the money.)

[kevin m.]

"#2 the flare issue with the summicron is way overblown. use a shade and forget it."

 

It's not flare, and the shade does nothing to help the problem. It's internal light reflections inside the lens. Johann Fuller made a light baffle for his Summicron 50, check the archives.

 

If your lens has the problem, it's not predictable at all, and it looks godawful in a print. The Hexanon 50 costs half what a Summicron does, and doesn't have this problem.

[blakley]

John's right on the money - the 50/1.4 LTM Nikkor is the one you want. I know because I

bought one from John. If I get a sec I'll scan one or two of my REALLY low-light shots (1/

30 at f/1.4 on XP2 Super 400) tomorrow and show you what I mean.