eos 1D vs 20D (sorry!)

[bojan_hohnjec1]

Igor,I just saw jour earlier posting asking me if the image was "heavily processed" & the answer is NO that is original straight out of camera image only "processing" was camera's sharpening.I don't know why there is no EXIF information on image properties as that shows almost all of the parameters used & if the image was modified in any way.Anyway here are some of the parameters :ISO 250, f10 1/80 , AI servo (don't ask),auto white ballance,EF 17-40mm f4 L USM @ 40mm ...If you want to see it yourself let me know your e-mail & I'll send you the picture with EXIF info.

[danny_lee2]

It's all subjective really. One man's trash is another man's treasure. Some say you can print a 8x11 with the 1D, and you CAN. but the resulting image quality is lower than if you used the 20D. it's in the pixels, the more pixels you have the more detail you have. some people cant tell the difference between a 200 DPI print and a 300 DPI print. some people can. but basic rule is that for the best print possible, use 300 DPI. and at 8 x 11 size, 8 Megapixels just covers that and a little bit more. ( 4 mp will cover a 8 x 5.5 )

 

anything less than 300 DPI is just to the observer really, say a 100 dpi poster print viewed from far away is acceptable, but that dont mean that "The 1D can print up to 16x20" that would be misleading.

 

as for the images you viewed above and on the other sites, remember they are being shown on a monitor at 72 dpi. ( low res )

 

I believe Scott when he says that he astonished some publishers with his images out of his 1D. Like I said, it's all subjective. publishers dont only care about DPI, I bet his pics got some real good subject matter also !

 

any camera can be good for your own satisfaction. but I cant live with myself if I print a 8x11 at anything less than 240 DPI.

 

It just all depends on the person. I once showed newsprint to a friend to tell him about pixels, he said the newprint looks really good. It just goes to show, it's all up to you what you think is acceptable or not.

[danny_lee2]

Also before I get flamed, I dont correct my spelling on internet forum posts I apologize for the mispellings, I also write in a verbal informal manner as opposed to correct writing, so forgive the grammar, and I dont get too technical with the terms and jargon so forgive the obvious mistakes. Like, I mean I know the correct stuff, I just dont wanna use it all the time. and igor, I mean PPI not DPI but I always just say DPI for no good reason.

[chiswick_john]

"Best Action Shots, the images are truly amazing!" - at the small size his shots are posted at on the net you can't tell anything about the image quality - a P&S would likely get the same results. Lets see some 100% crops so we can see the real quality.

[scott_ferris]

Hey Danny,

 

I'm not flaming you but do try and get your facts straight, a 1D image printed at 240 dpi at

its native resolution comes out at 10.267 x 6.867 inches. NOT 5.5 x 8 inches. Any printer

set on scale to fit media will produce a perfect 8 x 11 without any photoshop interpolation

(yes I understand this is interpolating) but I have not found an imageing professional who

can tell the difference at 8 x 11.

 

Take care, Scott.

[scott_ferris]

And another thing, publishers absolutely do care about resolution, the ones I deal with will

not accept anything less than 300 dpi because that is what they have been told NOT what

they see, that is why they were so surprised by the shots I showed them. They also always

look to crop so want some extra sizeing to allow for it. The most common comment is

"what is the file size" so I say 23 mb because that is the size of a 16 bit RAW uncropped

file.

 

Take care, Scott.

[bestactionshots]

Here are the links to actual files from camera. They are about 3MB each.<br>

<a href="http://www.softechie.com/Photos/Samples/Canon20DTests/ISO/Originals/Canon20DISO0100.jpg">ISO 100 Photo</a><br>

<a href="http://www.softechie.com/Photos/Samples/Canon20DTests/ISO/Originals/Canon20DISO0200.jpg">ISO 200 Photo</a><br>

<a href="http://www.softechie.com/Photos/Samples/Canon20DTests/ISO/Originals/Canon20DISO0400.jpg">ISO 400 Photo</a><br>

<a href="http://www.softechie.com/Photos/Samples/Canon20DTests/ISO/Originals/Canon20DISO0800.jpg">ISO 800 Photo</a><br>

<a href="http://www.softechie.com/Photos/Samples/Canon20DTests/ISO/Originals/Canon20DISO1600.jpg">ISO 1600 Photo</a><br>

<a href="http://www.softechie.com/Photos/Samples/Canon20DTests/ISO/Originals/Canon20DISO3200.jpg">ISO 3200 Photo</a><br>

<br>

<i>Chiswick John , dec 06, 2004; 07:06 a.m.<br>

"Best Action Shots, the images are truly amazing!" - at the small size his shots are posted at on the net you can't tell anything about the image quality - a P&S would likely get the same results. Lets see some 100% crops so we can see the real quality.</i>

[bestactionshots]

Here are the 100% cropped files of a small part from photo:<br>

<br>

<table>

<tr>

<td>20D ISO 100<br><img src="http://www.softechie.com/Photos/Samples/Canon20DTests/ISO/Canon20DISO0100_01.jpg"></td>

<td>20D ISO 200<br><img src="http://www.softechie.com/Photos/Samples/Canon20DTests/ISO/Canon20DISO0200_01.jpg"></td>

<td>20D ISO 400<br><img src="http://www.softechie.com/Photos/Samples/Canon20DTests/ISO/Canon20DISO0400_01.jpg"></td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td>20D ISO 800<br><img src="http://www.softechie.com/Photos/Samples/Canon20DTests/ISO/Canon20DISO0800_01.jpg"></td>

<td>20D ISO 1600<br><img src="http://www.softechie.com/Photos/Samples/Canon20DTests/ISO/Canon20DISO1600_01.jpg"></td>

<td>20D ISO 3200<br><img src="http://www.softechie.com/Photos/Samples/Canon20DTests/ISO/Canon20DISO3200_01.jpg"></td>

</tr></table>

[danny_lee2]

Best Action, That's What I'm Talking About ! lets see a 1D even try to match that kind of quality ! Great examples ! Technology Rules !

 

Scott: you said it yourself: "1D image printed at 240 dpi at its native resolution comes out at 10.267 x 6.867 inches" and "the ones I deal with will not accept anything less than 300 dpi" and I did say at 300 dpi, the 1D will cover a 8 x 5.5 I didnt say at any lower res.

 

If you have a choice scott, would you prefer to print at 300 or 240 ? and not talking about some home printer either, for ALL your printing tasks both at home, and at the pro offset machines.

 

Well, the poster igor was deciding to PURCHASE a 1d or a 20D, can you honestly say that you can recommend the 3 year old 1d as a purchase knowing full well that it costs 1600+ on the used market meanwhile the 20D is 1450 for new? If canon offered a 250 dollar upgrade for the 1D to change out the sensor for a 8 megapixel would you not do it?

 

Although you never met someone who can tell the difference, I also know people who claim that cubic zirconias and diamonds cant be differentiated with the naked eye, or that the fake rolex looks the same or whatever. It all depends on who you talk to.

 

The man is about to dump 1500 plus on a camera, Although the 1D is a good camera, I Myself cannot tell him to buy a used 4mp camera for that price no matter what the reasons. and if he does buy that 1d scott, and he then wants to print larger one day. are you going to buy it from him so he can then move on to a 8mp + sensor camera ?

 

Can you say that 4mp noisy sensor of the 1D is better than the 8mp smooth sensor of the 20D ?

 

I know it is fancy to have a "1" on the camera, or that the weather sealing is better or bla bla bla, but isnt photography about the photo?

 

I'm not saying that the owners if a 1D need to upgrade, It is still serviceable I know. but THE MAN IS ABOUT TO DUMP 1500 BUCKS on a CAMERA TODAY ! DECEMBER 06 2004.

[bestactionshots]

Got another test for you! I called it <b>SPEEDY DOG TEST</b>.<br>

The main objective is to compare the AF speed between the two cameras and <b>mostly can 20D keep up with 1D.</b><br>Overall I've found it can keep up but have more OOF photos. 1D AF is truly amazing and 20D is not far behind.<br>

<br>

<a href="http://www.softechie.com/Photos/Samples/Canon1DTests/SpeedyDogTests/">1D Speedy Dog Test<br><img src="http://www.softechie.com/Photos/Samples/Canon1DTests/SpeedyDogTests/1-67CG8424_RJ.jpg"></a><br><br>

<a href="http://www.softechie.com/Photos/Samples/Canon20DTests/SpeedyDogTests/">20D Speedy Dog Test<br><img src="http://www.softechie.com/Photos/Samples/Canon20DTests/SpeedyDogTests/IMG_0041.jpg"></a><br><br>

[scott_ferris]

Ok Danny,

 

Firstly, Igor wanted to know how the 1D compared to the 20D printed out to no larger

than 8x11, my experiance is that I have not met one person, including imageing

professionals, who can tell the difference between 1D and 20D image quality at that size.

You are talking numbers but not showing anything, how much have you used BOTH

cameras?

 

Second, I tried to make the point, that a lot of imageing pros have been told they have to

work at 300 dpi, this is not backed up by their eyes, you need to go up to very high

printing standards to be able to really see the difference between 240 and 300 dpi. I know

this from my own experience, not because I read it somewhere on some bullitin board.

Though I am not the only person who has realised this, check out Dan Hellers web site and

his opinion on dpi for one.

 

Third, I stated 240 dpi because that is what you said you would print an 8x11 out at. The

amount of interpolation needed to print out to that size really is well within the algorithms

of all but the most basic printers and manipulation programs.

 

Fourth, I don't doubt that the 20D benefits from a couple of years of R&D but are you

saying a 2 year old Mercedes is rubbish because there is a brand new Ford out ? I'm not

argueing that the 20D has better high iso performance than the 1D, it does, and I said in

my first post that if that was important to Igor he should get the 20D, he subsiquently said

the high iso performance was not that important to him, so there is no overwhelmingly

good reason to go for either camera.

 

Five, the vast majority of times I could care less about 240 or 300 dpi, I will interpolate

up to 36x24 inches at 240 and the grain is not much different from 35mm slides blown up

that big, the more important factor seems to be the sharpening, it has a bigger effect on

enlargments than interpolation, well it does in PSCS, but what would I know, I'm only doing

it?

 

Six, not only would I recommend Igor get a 1D if there was an overwhelming reason too, in

previous posts I have suggested both as the better answer to a specific request, but how

do you think I got mine? The tooth fairy. I paid for it, and I got it after useing the 20D. I

have used and understand both cameras. I decided the 1D was a better answer for my

photography than the 20D, why could that not be the case for Igor?

 

Seven, if a $250 1D upgrade was available, yes I'd buy it, does that mean it is rubbish

without the upgrade ? No of course it's not. It will do everything Igor states he wants, I

wouldn't recommend a D60 (for different reasons) but a lot of people are buying them and

are very happy with them, are they all idiots ? Can their cameras still take good pictures ?

Of course they can. You are really hung up on this newer is better trip but as Igor said if

the 1D can do all he wants why not ? Your main reasoning seems to be because it it old

and can't do the job. Several posters here and in other threads that actualy use the

cameras being talked about know you are wrong.

 

Eight, if imageing pros can't tell the difference and Igor has said that he has no publishing

asperations then so what. If a fake compound golf club is made buy the same people in

the same factory with the same materials and it is indistinguishable from the genuine

article by pro golfers, does it matter if it is a fake ? What is a fake ? Why is it relevent ? You

have bought into the numbers game and repeat what you have been told, some of us are

out there playing around useing the firmware upgades and the improved software and not

being dictated to by the "rules" but relying on what we actualy see.

 

Nine, you haven't used the 4MP camera so who cares what your opinion is ? If Igor wants

to print bigger , despite saying he did not want to then guess what, he can. There are an

aweful lot of people who print out 1D files at 12x18, guess what, they look great. Don't

argue the numbers game until you have seen one, as I said earlier in the thread I don't

understand why the prints look so good but they do. It does not all turn to mush after 8x5

at 300dpi you know.

 

Ten, Igor has stated that he preffers the look he is seeing from 1D images over 20D

images, you tell him that the 1D is worse, oh yeh you already did didn't you. The 1D is not

noisey at lower iso's, the 20D out preforms the 1D at higher iso, I've agreed that so many

times now, I even mentioned it before you did, so what? Igor has said that high iso

performance is not a deciding factor for him. Please stop making the same point. But Igor

seems to be thinking the 1D sensor will give him what he wants, who are you to tell him

he and his eyes are wrong ?

 

Eleven, yes photography is about the photo and Igor is obviously looking for a camera that

will give him a specific feel to his pictures, so far he has said he has seen that feel in1D

images and not 20D images, so which camera do you think will serve him better ? There

are also other specific advantages the 1D has over the 20D other than weather sealing,

those were the factors that made me put my money into the 1D. Am I wrong despite the

fact that I am happy ?

 

Twelve, yep Igor is going to buy a camera, he can decide which will be best for him, I went

through the same process recently and guess what ? The 1D was the right answer for me.

 

Thirteen, I have not said "Igor get the 1D" what I have said, in answer to his specific

enquiries, is "yes the 1D will do all the things you want it to, as will the 20D"

 

Take care and either put up or shut up, Scott.

 

P.S. At least Best Action posts pics illustrating his points ! Even though the thrust of his

argument ( better high iso performance in the 20D) has already been said by Igor to not be

that important to him.<div></div>

[bestactionshots]

I know Igor will want this photo for Christmas.<br>

<br><b>Happy Holidays Everyone!</b><br>

<a href="http://www.softechie.com/Photos/Samples/Canon20DTests/ISO"><img src="http://www.softechie.com/Photos/Samples/Canon20DTests/ISO/Canon20D_2_ISO3200.jpg"></a><br>20D ISO 3200 50mm f/5.6 1/13sec

[danny_lee2]

Scott: Nice set of opinions you have there, well anyway, I still stand with NO for the 1D, and Yes for the 20D . Igor, if you really need the benefits of the 1D, I think you would be happier with the 1DmkII.

[bestactionshots]

Actually Igor should do his own tests like what I've done and pick the best price/performance based on his own criteria. To each his/her own I guess.

[scott_ferris]

That, Best Action, is the smartest thing you've said and I agree 100%. You did your

homework and came out with the 20D for your reasons, I did my homework and came out

with the 1D for my reasons. Igor is trying to do his homework whilst Danny keeps

comming out with regurgitated garbage and has probably never touched either camera.

Now he says don't drop $1500-1800 on a body, go spend $4000+. Amazing...

 

Take care, Scott.

[igor_feldman]

>Igor, if you really need the benefits of the 1D, I think you would be happier with the 1DmkII.

 

Danny, I?ve never thought of it but I suspect I would be happier with the Mk2. I even think I could be happier with a 1Ds Mk2. Guess what, I?m sure I would also be much more delighted to drive a 2005 BMW 330 Ci than the 1995 Nissan Maxima I?m driving. Life ain?t perfect, we all know that :-).

 

Best Action Shots, thanks for the Christmas pic. The 20D?s ISO performance is still up there in the skies :-).

 

Everyone, thanks very much for your input! It was a great and very fruitful for me discussion. I think I even made up my mind about a camera thanks to this thread :-).

 

Take care and see you around,

Igor.

[andreas_thaler]

Only 3 things to add ....

 

... Igor, tell us in time how you made up your mind :-)

 

... all of you ... just keep cool. A lot of valid opinions were voiced and discussed, but there's really no need to start insulting each other...

 

... for me, this thread is interesting as well ... after leaning very heavily towards the 20D because of its high iso capabilities ... but still knowing that a 1D would be *very* nice to handle ... now with the photos posted, I'm wavering a bit again ;-(

 

Scott, could you post a high ISO /low light picture from the 1D?

 

Best regards,

Andy

[scott_ferris]

Hi Andy,

 

I'm sorry if I have offended anybody, I did not mean to, where I come from telling

somebody to put up or shut up is meant literaly and is not insulting! But it really gets me

annoyed when people who clearly have no experiance of something lecture on about it, it

is very counter-productive.

 

Anyway onto your request, I don't know how to align different pics like Best Action but half

his pics don't come up on my server so I have to post examples individualy.

 

This is an inside shot taken at 1600 iso, the first post should be the entire frame, the

second a 100% crop, the third a crop at 800 iso, the fourth a crop at 400 iso. The 3200

setting on the 1D is a personal function, I have not included this but if you want me to just

say.

 

The EXIF data shows, .2 sec at f 2.8 at 1600 iso, I think that puts it at EV 0>1 so you don't

get to use them much dimmer! There is a -2/3 compensation but even that is generous as

the scene is much darker than it looks.

 

Hope this all works and hope it helps. Take care, Scott.<div></div>

[scott_ferris]

Second post, 100% crop from above frame 1600iso EV 0>1.

 

The white band through the frame is the corner of my house! OK so I didn't spend too long

setting this up. I must be honest I am pleasantly surprised by how good these are

compared with fast film, I am going to do some portraits at high iso and low EV with the

intention of converting to B&W to see how they feel.

 

There is no processing atall in these shots, no corrections, levels, or cleaning.

 

Take care, Scott.<div></div>

[scott_ferris]

Third post,

 

800 iso 100% crop.

 

Take care, Scott.<div></div>

[scott_ferris]

Fourth post, 100% crop at 400 iso.

 

Take care, Scott.<div></div>

[danny_lee2]

"put up or shut up" I still dont know what that really means, to "put up" to me means to endure agony such as "I have to PUT UP with my boss." but any which way, I cant speak for others but I did at one time look into a 1D as a purchase about 2 months ago since the price dropped down in the used market. After reading the reviews on Dpreview, I decided on the Digital Rebel Instead. Everyone has their opinons and mine is that any 4 MP camera is not worth 2 grand, not now anyway. I decided on the rebel because I do alot of studio work, portraits using cold lights, I print at 6x9 max. I myself decided that 6 MP would be enough to cover and even crop a little, FPS isnt important because my monolights dont recycle any faster than the rebel can shoot, and that because I am indoors I dont need water resistance. Using the powerful cold lights I am able to just stay with iso 100 for noise free shots so the noise free 20D sensor was not important to me. There was no advantage for me to go any higher than the rebel, and after canon's juicy rebate I was able to get one for 405 dollars. I chose not to go legacy/discontinued cameras because pricewise it didnt make sense, and I do not wish to interpolate the images for sending to the professional image printers at 300 DPI/PPI. the 1D is very old. it is just one camera above the D30 in the timeline of canon. 4 MP is not enough for my 6x9 printing needs at the various printers with whom I do business. and god forbid if I had to crop that 1D image. for ME and IMHO, the Digital Rebel satisfies all my needs for the in studio camera, and it is a vast improvement over the ancient olympus E10 I was using, it was a thousand dollars less than the 20D, One thousand Six Hundred dollars less than the 1D which I cant even use at all.

 

Now I harbor no ill feeling nor ill will for those who would disagree with my opinions, that is what makes this world an interesting place. I enjoy a good debate, I even learn alot from many debates I have had in many forums. It is always good to see other people's point of view and at that, I shall close with one last statement "everyone's different and thus will have different points of views and that is all right in my book !"

[scott_ferris]

Hi Danny,

 

It wasn't your opinions I had a problem with but your obvious and now admitted lack of

experiance with the cameras in question. I do not criticise you for dismissing the 1D in

your case and you are obviously happy with your Drebel (another camera that I have used

a fair amount) but it does seem strange to me how vociferous people can get when they

don't have any hands on knowledge, but like you say the world is made up of many

different sorts and it is better for it.

 

Put up or shut up, means put up some evidence of your experiance or stop talking about

stuff you have no knowledge of.

 

Anyway, take care and have a great Christmas and New Year. Scott.

 

P.S. If you want to Email me your address I will post you some 8x11 prints from the 1D, it

MIGHT make you think a little differently.

[bestactionshots]

I'm sorry to say but I have one word for 1D high ISO performance: uuuggglllyyyy! :-)

 

I love its AF though! 1DmkII would be the best ideal camera but it costs way too much for my budget.

[danny_lee2]

Oh heavens, I cant believe this statement "I had a problem with but your obvious and now admitted lack of experiance with the cameras in question."

 

What does experience with a particular model of camera have to do with what I have to say? I dont need to shove a 1D up my @ss to know it is a 4 MEGAPIXEL camera.

 

And 4 megapixel camera no matter the brand still has 4 megapixels.

 

I dont need to take a 1D out to dinner and kiss it to realize it will not suit my partiuclar wants and needs.

 

for MY NEEDS I print at 300 DPI/PPI. I WANT MY FILES to be 300 DPI/PPI when I send them to the printers.

 

the 1D simply do not have enough pixels. and I didnt need to give it alimony payments to find that out either.

 

Look, like I said before. What the 20D can provide at TRUE 300 DPI the 1D can only provide at 200 DPI. When sending my files to my printer people, If I had the 1D, I would have to software interpolate to achieve 300 PPI, which means ONE THIRD of that image will be a computer's guess at what those extra pixels will contain. That always results in a softer image than it can be and it is well documented in unlimited books, sites, forums and is also common knowdlege.

 

thus without Waking up everymorning and calling the 1D honey, I am able to say, NO FOR THE 1D for Igor since if he wants the best possible print quality at 8x11 inches.

 

Man, how hard was that to understand ?