Why can we not all get along and learn something?

[paul e. wog]

The true sign of a professional forum troll is his ability to use muti layered, innocuous statements where they aren't needed, that enhance his suffering self esteem into delusions of importance....but in the end the visions he puts forth mearly define the origin of his words.

[vincetylor]

The number of harsh, cold, mean, unkind or my favorite the *I'm the ultimate authority* type of comments is really quite rare. A few people here and there and that's basically it. Sometimes it is just a cultural issue. Other times perhaps a matter of sour grapes, especially if a photographer has a good measure of success. It can also be due to frustration because of seeing an abundance of the "great shot", "incredible capture"... "WOW" comments that are often given on very average images. Those are the ones that catch my attention the most because in reality you are helping nobody this way to become a better photographer. In fact you are actually hurting them since they THINK there *okay* images are really something special. While reminders from time to time to show some good-ole manners when expressing our thoughts on someone elses images is always a good thing, in reality I do not see this as much of a problem at all considering the volume of images posted and number of comments given on this site. This is just my opinion here, though I have been around for a little while now.

 

The real root of the greatest negative issues on this site has to do with ratings! Because there IS a ratings system that rewards the highest rated images with extra visibility, people throughout the site often have hidden agendas. And this is to be somewhat expected. Who out here does not want their images to be seen and appreciated to some degree? Whether it's the "you rate me high and I'll rate you the same" mate-rating that is all to common here, or the "I'll fix this inflated-rated image" balance brigade lowballing movement that has also grown a bit, it all creates the mood or spirit of competition that often leads to many of the problems mentioned above. Abolish the ratings altogether, and I guaranty most of these issues/problems would also go away. However since it is proven that most visitors come to Photo.net because of the gallery (which of course is created based on the ratings) getting rid of the ratings will never really happen. So then, it is what it is and I wouldn't count on much changing. Nevertheless I do agree when coming to the table to eat as mom always said "bring your manners with you!" Sorry Ma, I'll try to do better! Well, Mom is of course correct, and we all owe each other at least that. And... it don't cost a dime.

[vertigoclimb]

Most of the people who post photo's (or have none to post, so just critique) here on photo.net are adults. As adults we've been around long enough to see the bullies on the playground and as adults everyone has run across those people who are just miserable and "misery loves company".

Keeping this in mind, when we're online we need to expect these same people to act like themselves, keep their personal status quo and do what they do (a lot of us can remember Mimi from the Drew Carey Show). They may try to deflate others in the hopes of bringing others down to their level in the "real" world. So, it's only natural for them to do it here.

 

I'm not sure that a personality can be hidden (even online) forever. The hate, contept, envy, or happiness, contentment, politeness that these people show in their "real" lives will be transfered here depending on their personality and motivations.

 

Again, keeping these things in mind we need to treat these people on photo.net just as we would in our "real" lives. I choose to ignore them. They will continue to push our perverbial buttons but it's our decision as to if we react. If someone feels a need to degrade another to justify their own existence or feel better about themselves, that is that persons personal problem not ours.

 

People like this have been around for a long, long time and it seems that they will continue to be. I for one, choose to just ignore that aspect of humanity and focus on the other side. It's all very relative and I choose to be positive and uneffected by the few who try to seek balance in their lives through contempt.

 

I'm not entirely sure (as I have no advanced psychology degree, only what I've learned of people through my own experience) but, it seems to me that some people may feel they've balanced the inbalances (lack of power or control) in their "real " life by bullying here because they are so ineffectual and powerless outside of photo.net.

 

I've been "hit" by these people here on photo.net. I was perplexed and defensive until I put it into perspective.

 

Just let these "parasites" (yes, these people seem fit the definition) of humanity who feel a need to justify their existence off the backs of others wallow in their own failure to produce anything useful (including critques).

 

Just let them ride your shirt tail in their misguided attempt to control something. If they had anything useful to give or add and weren't here to just justify themselves (for whatever reason) off the "fat of the land" they'd not be parasites. But, since nothing of value (that I've seen or hear about from others) is given or produced by them and they take what they'd like... they fit the definition of a "parasite". Sad, yes. But, not my idea and I didn't put them into this position, they did.

 

They are fully aware of the fact that they are inferior or they wouldn't have to keep throwing their superiority in others faces. If they were superior it would be self evident and they wouldn't even have to mention it because we'd already know. Again, it's sad. I say we should all do our best to be overly kind to these people. If for no other reason: if we don't play their game they will have no one to play with so, the game will stop. Just like I tell my kids to do with the bullies at school. hehehehehehehe........ that will show them. It would be like sending a naughty child to his room to think about his actions or putting a naughty child on "timeout" to seperate them and give them a chance to think about interacting with others.

 

We live on a planet FULL of people and to disregard their feelings in favor of ones own is very infantile and self destructive, to say the least and seeing all the damage it causes in ones own life and contnuing the same selfdefeating behaviors DOES NOT SHOW AN OVER ABUNDANCE OF INTELLIGENCE.

 

Not being able to have open discourse with other people without it turning contemptful and meanspirited is a very glaring character flaw. How can one be successful on a planet full of people when one can't even interact in a civil way. It really shows just how much thought and time should be given to these people.

 

I hope your days are warm, fruitful, and sunny and your nights are filled with good company and a full stomach. :o)

 

ALways Kind Regards, _Lisa

 

 

[paul e. wog]

Rashid

 

I would hope that 1:47 message of yours wasn't a message of goodbye. A message was sent to you. A picture and a title that was impossible to misread. It was a message of peace along with the symbol of an event that happened...that never happened. In the simplest form of english i will explain for you, just the first part for you . You failed to get that message, you wrote..."yestrday you posted an image for the fighter plane and one person came and did comment on it that it as wrong timing and and by means of not a good expouser"

 

I attacked your picture. I was not wrong but i was not right. I failed to stand in your shoes and view things as you see them. For that i'm sorry. Its over. I feel no anger to you or your friends and i hope you forgive this mistake. Through your writing i now realize just how much each image means to you. You believe it has a soul. I believe the very same. We are very much the same. So my friend i am sorry once again and have learned a valuble lesson. I hope to point it out to others in the next part but doubt you will understand because you are of a different culture and events that happened here can only be felt here. So just know i'm sincere and no hard feelings my friend from Quatar. peace.

 

So probably i'm the smuck who started this whole deal with my uncaring lack of finess. If it wasn't me it would have been some other rightous bozo unapprised of this huge cultural barrier we face worldwide. We are asking almost the immposible here to quantify ratings and at the same time address peoples inner beliefs. Vincent words it best so far.

 

Mistakes like this where people get feelings hurt over a simple picture are easy to see. We judge whats best and most meaningful and its directly related most times to the bucks invested. The poor person in say Phillipines works a year for a cheap digital. He competes against guys that a top nikon is a months pay. He is treated equal in our comfortable little concept of being liberal about it...but stands little chance.

 

So the rich get richer out in the real world and similar in cyberspace. The concept of cyberspace is to bring the world together, to be a positive thing. Its a superhighway all right...too super. We meet on neutral ground under the same rules. He goes out to click some pics with his prized camera he may have to ride a donkey a mile or two is his max..i jump in a fast chev and go anywhere... we come back and compare the results...who wins?

 

The issues in this article, combined with the setup here at PN is cybershock, or cybercultureshock... a world going too fast. As far as i can see we are doing this for fun..aren't we? To have to prove i'm better than you doesnt seem much fun. This inherent flaw we are facing is not PN's fault it may be the advent of the digit worldwide and the price dropping. What was pretty 1st world before becomes inclusive of 3rd world more everyday...and these people are more innocent and for lack of a better word, primitive.

 

As Vincent points out effectivly. Ratings are the mutt here..the cause of all this. I wouldnt go so far as advocate seriously scraping those but why can't some of these factors be weighed here. The very simplest solution would be to make entering the ratings system an option as it was before....Then it can be clearly stated...you are entering a world of pain...are you ready?

 

We are dealing with a powerful weapon here. We here at PN are the worlds greatest photographers...just ask us...Is there anybody here who is over say, 40 that can't visualize right now the image that practicaly stopped Vietnam? A naked child covered in napalm, running. I still see it, what 25 years? later clear as day. Thats the power an image can hold.

 

Whats the next historic image that could change the world..the real world? Who knows, could be a PN freak riding a donkey captures an image so compelling it could lead to the end of world hunger or whatever...same as that news guy in nam.

 

I would like to think a worldwide web of the greatest photographers had something more to offer than a sum total that produced pretty pics....so searched...best images last 5 years what we got...#1 horserace thingie...i hate horses. #2 Some pototoes??? got them in my kitchen #3 some lake?? i have 10000 slides of lakes gone bad... the whole page has nothing except very pretty pics. Is that all we can do to change this world? The product of this ratings thing speaks for itself..it means nothing....so why rant about its flaws.

 

Elvis has left the building as far as a grand design thats workable to the ratings, just judging of PN's responce to any proposed idea changes...and i totally agree by looking at the results, but wanna ask them just one thing.

 

Does this lack of initiative (ratings) apply to any other proposed major change or proposal, that would be additions to the system, offering an actual purpose to all this?

 

I ask cause i may have maybe,a very win win idea for a lot of people here and the budget of pn, but don't want to be bothered talking to a wall...so if you are i will do a post on it, lemmie know...thanks, Paul.

[bw]

I don't go out of my way to anger people, but some of the best and most cutting critiques I have received have been from people I've angered. At first they achieved what they had set out to achieve, they p*ssed me off. But they actually made me think more about my photography, much more than nice DOF, horizon's not level, etc etc. type comments.

 

Just a thought.

[root]

brevity is the . . .

[paul e. wog]

Seems the number one moaner of the ratings can only look down from above and condesend...no wonder you are talking to a wall.

[root]

Paul, it seems I am.

[jayme]

Nicely said both Paul and Rashid.

 

Carl- this is a forum, right? Not exactly sure what your comments meant. Don't want to misunderstand. Please explain, will you. They were a little too brief. LOL

[spaghetti_western]

carl's were the only posts i understood perfectly. like a well-conceived-and-done-photo-without-words they spoke volumes to me. brevity is the soul of wit. keep it simple and pointed. yes, carl, you are talking to the wall but maybe soon some mortar will crack and... of course, as we all should know by now, soon the cycle will 'begin again begin again, mister finnegan'

[jayme]

Dear Spaghetti & Carl,

 

Let's start with Spaghetti's post:

 

"carl's were the only posts i understood perfectly. like a well-conceived-and-done-photo-without-words they spoke volumes to me. brevity is the soul of wit. keep it simple and pointed. yes, carl, you are talking to the wall but maybe soon some mortar will crack and... of course, as we all should know by now, soon the cycle will 'begin again begin again, mister finnegan'"

 

 

I find your response interesting. Do I denote a little arrogance in your tone? Or am I just being "overly sensitive" as usual? LOL I hate to speculate, but are you making referrence to Joyce's "Finnegans Wake" with your loose referrence of 'begin again Mister Finnegan'? Just checking. Perhaps it would have been better to say, "this is nothing new" and "it will be and has been discussed over and over". (others not so educated as yourself, or familiar with the words, may have understood better what you were implying). The proverbial quote which Carl eluded to, without completion, "Brevity is the soul of wit" (I guess he really does believe in brevity, since he didn't finish it, or dare I assume he was showing us his quip humor or maybe he was short on time? Hummm, I did not know, that's why I asked) I am familiar with it. It comes from Shakespeare's "Hamlet". But others may have been lost by the incomplete comment.

 

Other such proverbial quotes like: "Boys will be boys", "The buck stops here", "Birds of a feather, flock together", "The bigger they come the harder they fall", "The bark is worse than the bite", "The bad workman always blames his tools", "All that glitters is not gold", "Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration", "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" ," It's never over till it's over", "Knowledge is power", "There's no fool like an old fool", "Two wrongs don't make a right", "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar", "We have met the enemy, and they are us", "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones", "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds", "One picture is worth a thousand words", "When in Rome, do as the Romans do".

 

 

These all could have been used appropriately at sometime within the context of this forum, but for what purpose? Bevity? Quip humor? I fear Rashid & others, without a resplendent command of the English language, would have indeed needed an interpreter. Most of these short, pithy sayings are nation specific, not universal. Since we were dealing with a multicultural, multilingual group, I felt emphatically, it was best to avoid such old adages and, if they arose, to explain them adequately, so all might be able to understand. While I agree they do have their place, I believe I quoted the "Golden Rule", which I believed to be universally understood. I believe Carl's quote was inadequate, that's why I asked for HIS explanation.

 

 

I quote from The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. 2002

 

 

"Proverbs are short, pithy sayings that reflect the accumulated wisdom, prejudices, and superstitions of the human race. In general, the particular phrasing of the proverbs, not their ideas, is what belongs to the cultural literacy of each nation and language."

 

"We don't wish to encourage ideas such as "Boys will be boys" or "Frailty, thy name is woman!"; (Oh, surely not) in fact, we would prefer people question proverbial wisdom rather than accept it blindly. But we also want to give everybody the chance to be an insider in literate AMERICAN culture." (End of quote).

 

One old proverb this particular book fails to list, possibly due to the inability to assign an origin, is "Be careful when you assume, for to assume makes an 'ass' out of 'u' & 'me'". This being absolutely limited to the English language.

 

No doubt "intelligent speech and writing should AIM at using few words". I guess that's why most of the world's great novelists, like Joyce, only needed a few hundred pages to get their point across? No sarcasm intended, just an analogy to suggest this old adage is most assuredly not always true.

 

 

Sadly, I received an e-mail from Paul this morning. I am attaching a copy of the e-mail he received earlier today from PN:

 

 

Paul,

 

You do not seem to be able to avoid making your comments personal. You may

start out in a fairly rational fashion, but you usually end up ranting and

giving personal attacks. I want that to stop! In order to help you control

yourself, I am banning you from photo.net for the next month. That should

give you time to reflect on your behavior and correct it - maybe...

 

You will be reinstated in one month, on January 6, 2005, unless you do

something else rude on photo.net before then. If you do, the ban will be

permanent.

 

Sincerely,

Jeremy Stein, for photo.net"

 

 

Sadly, as noted above, Paul has been banned from PN for one month. I sincerely hope it was not because of my forum posting. Who will be the next to go? TT?, "Z"? In keeping with Carl's brief, intellectual, proverial style, I will add "absence makes the heart ........" and obviously, "When in Rome, do as the ........". At least, the latter proverb may be useful.

 

 

As always, my comments and beliefs are my own, and "the buck stops here". Paul apparently was felt to be "a fish out of water" and we all know "you can't fit a round peg in a square hole". I assure you his "bark was worse than his bite". Photo.net continues, it seems, to "cut it's nose off to spite it's face", one needs to remember that "from the sublime to the ridiculous is but a step". Sadly, "what will be, will be". However, my "hope springs eternal" and I believe "it's never too late to mend". "Knowledge is power" but "a little learning is a dangerous thing". I believe "to err is human, to forgive divine" and that "variety is the spice of life". "Walls (apparently do) have ears, so "if the shoe fits, wear it". "Life is short; art is long" just as "man proposes, God disposes". I suppose "the game is not worth the candle", and I should "let bygones be bygones". I guess my new adage "hell hath no fury like a woman" (yes, I left out the "scorned" on purpose) may actually be true. So I ask, is brevity the the soul of wit?

 

The statement above sounds pretty ridiculous and most definately will be confusing for some. For this reason, I believe old adages (proverbs) were not appropriate in the context of this forum. I also believe that flaunting one's intelligence is extremely inappropriate. I apologize, I was making a point.

 

 

I also believe this forum did precisely what it set out to do, air some animosities and come to a peaceful resolution while learning that proper communication is valuable. If we were too wordy for some, my apologies.

[jory320]

Personnaly, I think the problem here is blown a little out of proportion. Then again, my images have not reached the masses as many of the people who have responded to this post have certainly achieved. However the main issue IMO is miscommunication. There are a billion ways to say "that image was good" or "that image was bad". When you add in DOF, color, composition, aesthetics, originality, and many other factors, you can see that communicating a contructive critique can be a headache to say the least. And I think this causes many to sum up their critiques down to one or two sentences, sometimes conveying themselves incorrectly or setting themselves up for misinterpretation. My advice: spend a little more time crafting your critique so that the image poster can understand 'precisely' what it is you're trying to say. Remember, be respectful and be helpful. Best Regards and I hope we can steer away from this bump in the road and get back to creating memories and cherrishing this beautiful planet! -JS

[root]

Jayme, I've noticed that a few members recently have resorted to unusually long comments to the point where I suspect that others, like myself, won't go to the trouble to read them. Some members'comments seem to be clear and friendly while others are incoherent or just ugly rants. This is your thread, so it is reasonable that you get to set the tone, but there are others who really have hijacked threads by going off on a tangent.

 

A tangent in this case would be anything not related to your clearly stated point about getting along and learning something. There's something ironic about going off on someone - which Paul did to me in a series of emails - as a result of this thread.

 

But just as I read and enjoy most of Marc's famously long posts, I, and I'm sure others, will give you some latitude because you don't resort to personal attacks and even have a sense of humor, as evidenced by the remarks you just left on my images.

[bens]

jayme, i've left numerous posts in feedback about encouraging constructive feedback in the last few months, all without any response from the site's administrators. i hang around cuz of people like you and many of the posters in this thread who use this site as a learning experience, have great creativity and are willing to generously share their thoughts in a constructive way to help me learn. i do not think the tone of the site overall, including the judgmental, sometimes negative tone in the air that you are addressing, will not change unless the site's managers make a concerted effort to change it, and i don't think they are interested in changing it, as they appear to think it cannot be changed and don't appear terribly interested in the issue of promoting constructive feedback as you and I understand it. fair enough, i'm sure they have plenty to deal with beyond helping posters learn. so for me, its about leading by example, like you did with the young poster, and making good connections with many different people of different cultures, talents, etc. and working to maintain them. that's about it. maybe, as long as we try, the impact will be felt somehow. thanks for taking on the issue, this is a very interesting, unique and stimulating thread, much like your magnificent photos.

[jayme]

Carl- I do have a well developed sense of humor, along with a well developed sense of fairness. This thread's purpose was to express feelings and air out differences. Clearly, even those of us that got a little long winded (I admit, I am guilty, but I had a lot to say) stayed on topic. The conflict was resolved and we have all learned to be a little more clear and tactful. My mission, as moderator (Mom), was both thought provoking and rewarding. Rashid and Paul are both to be commended. They actual found out they had a few things in common and even like each other. How better for the thread to end.

 

But I must admit, after your rather brief comment and then what appeared to be the rather condescending tone of Mr. Spaghetti, I can see how anyone could be a little confused. I felt Mr. Spaghetti assumed because I asked you to explain, I was not intelligent enough to know what you meant. When actually, I was not sure many beside myself knew what you meant. I felt it was your place to explain what you meant. If I was not secure in my own intelligence, I might have gotten my feelings hurt. But, instead, I wrote a book validating our long postings! LOL. The proverb, "Golden Rule" had come up earlier, as I mentioned. I purposely encouraged them to write books, so we could get to the root of the problem. It worked. I didn't want any short, trite responses, that is what got them in trouble in the first place. Both Paul & Rashid e-mailed me frequently, I offered direction.

 

Now to have Paul banned for 1 month, it seems unbelievable. I just don't understand. Rashid was happy, Paul was happy. What the heck happened?

[jayme]

Ben- Thank you for the lovely, kind words. When I first posted on PN, I was a bit intimidated. But I also found others willing to answer my questions and offer solid advice. I tend to believe, that artistic people, as a whole, tend to be very sensitive about their creations & a bit insecure. So the chances for misunderstandings are magnified greatly. I also do not want the standard "wonderful job!", "7/7", "super" blanket responses. This is no help either. I'm my own worst critic. I truly want to know. What is it you like? What is it you don't like? How can I improve next time? Give me some information. Answer my questions. I wouldn't post it if I didn't want advice. Some people are good with words, others with show & tell. I tend to use both. I've had and seen people post one liners. For example: "No subject matter" "Obvious digital junk" What does that help? I tend to be very honest about my postings. Others though, sometimes, deny they have done anything in PS to their image, even if it's obvious they have. This I find a little odd. I sit on the fence when it comes to the conflict between digital vs. film. I have seen good and bad in both. I like to think it's the person behind the camera that makes the difference, not necessarily the camera.

 

So in the end, I feel good communication skills, honesty, fairness, lots of tolerance & most important, humor, are some of the qualities required to survive just about anything, not just PN critiques.

 

I'm on my way to check out your site!

[bens]

jayme, its a pleasure to dialogue, imagine, how would we have been able to do this otherwise?

 

i used to train/organize people and events, and found that specific, truthful feedback, tempered by an understanding of the sensitivity and skill level of the person you were addressing, helped best to bring people along. people won't listen if they don't trust you, but they won't trust you unless you have something meaningful to say.

 

btw, don't forget the person in front of the camera -- its often as much or more about the story than the story-teller.

[jayme]

Rashid- This is not your fault! This is some crazy misunderstanding on PN's end. That was so nice of you to write PN. Maybe this will help Paul. It just seems crazy and weird. What were they thinking? But please, this is not your fault. You have been patient, kind and very willing to discuss the conflicts and you hung in there until it was successfully resolved. Not an easy thing to do. I am really honored to have been able to help straighten things up. It was nice to be able to express my opinions too. You're a genuinely nice person & I am glad to get to know you. I know Paul thinks so too, he wrote me these same things yesterday in an e-mail. So don't feel so bad. It had nothing to do with you & I.

[spaghetti_western]

jayme - the 'finnegan begin again' reference was to the satirical 'the never ending song' (thus, 'begin again') of contemporary childrens music, and by extension, was paradoxically and unknowingly predictive of sir greenwoods banning, probably due to his being repeatedly warned about not beginning still another cycle of personal scoring to settle as had been his habitual wont since joining this site

[spaghetti_western]

and the tie in to carl was entirely an homage to his insight that unless fundamental changes occur to the ratings system which drives such behavior, that the names will change (last week rashid and paul, next week william and sabrina?) but the same crap will recur in perhaps another forum thread

[travis1]

Because people have a lot of ego attached to their works and internet is a faceless interface. So you see a lot of ball-less people talking big behind their screens and using funny log-in names.

[mg]

Jayme:

 

Good post. I guess what you meant was "Make love, not war" - right...? :-) If so, even I do agree ! :-))

 

Walter:

 

You wrote: "And what do you do with the rater whose goal is to normalize a perceived distortion in the level of ratings being assigned? We have a few of this type of member here."

 

I believe I'm one of them - sometimes at least. So, tell me, could it simply be that you misjudged such raters' exact intentions...? Could it be for example, that this "normalization" you are refering to would just come from a simple will to act for a good cause...? Could this good cause, for example, be "to express a contradictory opinion from which others may later learn"...? If so, could it be that the (harsh) critic you are refering to was actually just a person strongly convinced that this photo A was good and that this photo B was crap...? If so, what's so wrong with that ?

 

You wrote: "He or she is motivated not by a concern for an honest evaluation of the photograph but rather a desire to pursue an agenda completely unrelated to the quality of the artist's efforts."

 

MAYBE SOME people are indeed nasty, but many people already felt I was nasty to them, about their pictures etc, yet only I know for sure why I do post harsh comments on and off. I always mean what I say, although many people here have doubted I did. I'm sure there are many other people in the same case as me, and too many sensitive folks winne about harsh comments. Harsh comments move the reader. If the picture is pure crap, and if I say it VERY bluntly, then perhaps I should tone it down a little, reword a thing or two, but there is no very nice way to make you feel I think your pix is REALLY VERY BAD... So...?

[mg]

You wrote: "My only self-imposed rule is to not say anything online that I wouldn't say to a person's face."

 

I like that. I practice that too. Yeah, I know, it's tough to believe, but I really do. And it shows how courageous I am in the real world too...:-)) (Disclaimer: This was a serious joke)

 

But the thing you'd see in the real world is that I smile a lot, even when I say something very harsh...

 

To add to Jayme's plead, I think we all must also remember, that the internet is international: and in each country, people have different ways to say things. Sometimes there could also be a language issue. And mostly, we do not see people's expressions as they write...

[mg]

You wrote: "I am *by far* my own worst critic and seldom like any shot that I take! ;-) I always think about what I could or should have done better and am really hard on myself. So having others "pile on", I feel, won't do me much good, personally."

 

I found this part of your post very interesting. Here is how I would rephrase it to express how I personally feel regarding these matters - I will highlight in caps (no idea how to use italics on the site) the few words I'd want to change...:

 

"I am *by far* ONE my own BEST critics (OR AT LEAST I AM NAIVE ENOUGH TO THINK SO :-), and seldom like any shot that I take! ;-) I always think about what I could or should have done better and am really hard on myself. So having others "pile on", I feel, WILL ALWAYS do me much good, personally, BECAUSE IT WILL CONFIRM MY DOUBTS ABOUT MY OWN WORK."

 

I think, an important part of Jayme's original post in this thread is to remember that our pictures ARE NOT US. We always do WHAT WE CAN.

 

We rarely do as well as we could have done. If we accept this (sad) fact, we stop taking our pictures too seriously. Once we do not take our pictures too seriously, we get better at accepting criticism, and at making the best out of the possibly harsh critiques we receive.

 

It is not the critic's job to be overly nice. A critique we receive, unless it's absolutely nasty and purposefully hurtful, is a favor someone does to us. We should be greatful and learn to take what comes as it comes, without necessarily thinking that the critic is rude, stupid, etc.

[jayme]

Travis:

 

Unfortunately you are right. The down-side of the internet.

 

Spaghetti:

 

Thank you for clarifying your remarks. I am not familiar with this children's song "The Never Ending Song". It doesn't ring any bells with me.

 

 

I believe in being very careful when commenting on PN, as one is addressing the world. Besides the obvious cultural barriers & language barriers, there are also within those sets, subsets of people with different educational backgrounds. One must speak simply and make one's point clear, if one is to be heard and understood.

 

 

I believe because of this lack of understanding, we are doomed to repeat this same discussion over and over again, as you mentioned. As the old adage goes: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it". Thus, I do not disagree with your statement. But each time it is repeated, someone learns something and that is enough for me.

 

 

Regarding Paul: Taking the time to understand others different than myself is important to me. I learn something I did not know each time I make the effort. My effort with Paul & Rashid has been a learning experience. I am a better person for the effort. I happen to like both Paul & Rashid very much. Both have e-mailed me, both have learned from this experience. Both are nice people. Through constructive dialog, they have resolved their differences. That was the goal and the goal was achieved. I, like you, am cynical, but I am also optimistic. Cynical because, I feel as you, this discussion will be repeated many times in the future. Optimistic that it will not be with Paul and Rashid.

 

 

Everyone needs to feel they have someone in their corner, who has their best interests at heart. Not everyone has this sense of security. Maybe, if we all took the extra time to listen with an open mind and try to understand without being judgmental, everyone's life would be improved.

 

 

But then there's always going to be that 2% that are not reachable no matter the amount of time spent. Those are the ones that concern me the most because they are the ones who are truly dangerous. People like Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Khan, Benito Mussolini, Ivan the Terrible, Vlad the Impaler and Marquis de Sade, just to mention a few from history.