3 speedlites versus 2 for group shots

[shaun_carter]

i would like to improve the lighting in my large group shots and am looking for

a little advice on light setup. i have the 20d w/580ex and a 430 ex. i have

always done the group shots with only the 580ex on my stroboframe bracket. the

middle of the group gets good lighting but the light usually falls off on the

edges. these are usually shot at 17mm on my 17-55 2.8. would a third

speedlite improve large group shots (one on camera and one off to each side)?

or would the ST-E2 on camera controlling two flashes off to each side be a

better setup? i don't mind purchasing another 430EX or an ST-E2 if it will

improve these shots. thanks!

[jon jacobson]

The ST-E2 is a little less reliable in a big room for what you'd want to set up. I'm certainly not saying you should't get one..., just not as practicle here.

 

This past weekend, I had a 580 pointed straight up as the master. Then I had 3 "butlers" set up (420, 550, 580). Two on stands about 15' out and 12' high on each side of me (one further back), and one more illuminating the background. The ST-E2 did not reach the butlers in this particular room (60's built church with steep a-frame wood ceilings and carpet floor).

 

Oh yeah, I've also found that an omnibounce on a master 580 has better reach for remote triggering.

 

(both computers are batching right now, so I cannot show an image)

[jon jacobson]

<img src="http://www.picturemichigan.com/blog/uploaded_images/0956328.jpg"><p>

5d - 24-105 4 // 60mm, 1/50, f4.0 //<br>speedlights setup as noted above<br>the glare and shadows make the placement obvious

[picturesque]

Depends what you mean by improve. Three lights would improve the evenness of light across a wide group. But so would not shooting at 17mm (about 28mm on a non crop camera) and dragging the shutter. Try to not shoot wider than about 35mm (non crop), which gives the flash's light a better chance at evenness. Try that plus dragging the shutter first before buying extra flashes and triggers. Also, you might want to manually zoom your flash wider than the angle of view you have on your lens, for better coverage.

 

Three lights would also introduce cross shadows, which some may view as a negative. Are you talking about evenness or quality of light for portrait work?

[shaun_carter]

nice shot jon! simple pose, well lit. thanks for sharing.

 

here are a few examples of shots that had shadows where i think more speedlites would have helped filled the shadows.<div></div>

[picturesque]

Delanza--they are so small its hard to tell what shadows you are talking about. In the first, the only thing I see is the possibility that you needed more fill. In the second, it looks like you did well with dragging the shutter, but see no "bad" shadows or unevenness of flash. In the third, very slight fall off of flash on the edges of the group--would have been more even if you bounced the flash since you have a nice, white ceiling.

[shaun_carter]

thanks for the reply nadine. here's my attempt to try and post the picts larger...

 

all were shot with an omnibouce on my 580ex. i usually have it pointed at 45 degrees. i see what you're saying about the third picture. i got some ceiling bounce with the flash pointed at 45 degrees, but maybe the light would have covered the edges better with full bounce. i can drag the shutter handheld now that i have the 17-55 2.8 IS lens. the middle image was shot at 1/30th of a sec at ISO 400. in the top image the sun was high and to the right casting light on the left side leaving a slight shadow on the right. hopefully it shows up better with this posting. but you're right, more fill may have helped...<div></div>

[tom_luongo1]

If you've already got stands for the flashes, how about using umbrellas and/or softboxes? The larger the light source the softer the shadows.

[shaun_carter]

Tom, i don't have any light stands, umbrellas, or softboxes yet for my speedlites. it's a good thought though. i'll be at calumet photo this weekend and price the speedlite umbrella setup while i'm there.

[allen_d.]

If you really want to improve those, get an old quantum (doesn't need to be a digital one) and flash meter and an umbrella (for indoors, outdoors would just be bare bulb). Takes all the guess work out of formals and gives much better lighting. For indoors, combine with the 580 diffused on camera for fill.<div></div>

[allen_d.]

Here's one outdoors, bare bulb<div></div>

[picturesque]

Delanza--the Omnibounce does still "hotspot" a little. Try full ceiling bounce with a white card, LS or Demb Diffuser. Still don't see anything wrong with the top two except more fill on the first one. I think your second, formal shot looks pretty good--not being able to see focus, etc., though, but lighting looks pretty even to me. I would be careful with umbrellas and softboxes with 430EX units. They don't put out a lot of power for these modifiers, plus, umbrellas are kind of self defeating after a certain distance, which you usually need to accomplish formals. Softness is dependent on the size of the light source in relation to the subject, with the ideal subject to light distance being the same as the circumference of the light source. Using a 40" umbrella, your light would have to be 4-5 feet away to be soft. You need at least 8-10 feet working distance for formals, not to mention the fact that evenness of light is better the farther away your light is from a group. What is your objectve--evenness, softness of light, or light quality (such as the classic key/fill for portraits)?.

[shaun_carter]

nice shots Allen. sounds like you're using your flash in manual mode which is something I plan to practice and get better at. Nadine, I never really noticed the omnibouce hot spot until this shot (the bottom one). definately something to keep in mind for future large group shots. my primary goal is to be able to see all the faces in the picture and not have any hidden in shadows. so i guess i'm after eveness of light across the crowd.

[shaun_carter]

so in summary, the top one needed more fill, middle one is ok, and bottom one has a hot spot from the omnibouce (should have bounced off ceiling w/o omnibounce)...thanks! here's another one shot at 17mm, iso 800, f4, 1/25th, w/omnibouce tilted 45 degrees. my guess is no hot spot here because there was enough ambient light compared to the bottom one above. so the omnibouce was the right choice here but not in the one above. definately something to keep in mind...<div></div>

[allen_d.]

Actually, in your most recent pic, the group is much smaller and nearly in the same plane so a single flash and omnibounce can handle it nicely. With your other image (#3), that is a huge group and one flash is just not enough simply because since there are about 4-5 rows, the flash coverage on the front row will not be the same as the back. A second flash or third would have helped, but it's just a tough shot either way especially with the low ceiling.

[savagesax]

Everyone has really wonderful professional ideas and techniques! My only comment would be to avoid using the lens at 17mm. To me people just don't look very flattering at that wide of an angle.

 

Delanza, your photo's look good! The background shots inside are properly exposed. If you have the room to back up slightly and shoot around a 35mm setting you'd probably find the lighting more appealing and even. If you have time to set up extra strobes with umbrellas that sure would be the way to go. In Los Angeles we hardly ever get more then a 1/2 hour to do the church shots. Probably the same in Chicago.