john15 Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 I phoned Leica in Northvale,NJ, to ask about a rangefinder adjustment. The repair department told me that they would need to do a CLA and the cost would be about $320. That's a bit more than 25% of the cost of the camera [used, of course]. Just curious about what makes the Leica more expensive to maintain than other cameras. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas_t Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 I suspect because we (Leica owners) bear it, thus creating the market forces for them to gouge us. Is there a quality difference between Leica and Nikon and Canon? Probably, but enough to justify the price? We keep saying yes by buying. Maybe we should unionize ?!!! Collective bargaining here we come! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c_d5 Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Think they might be going out of business soon and have charge more just to maintain their operation. A rangefinder adjustment should not be that expensive and if you are knowledgeable enough you could do it yourself. Search the old thread. Otherwise, sending it in for a CLA by a competent repairman such as Gerry Smith (Kindermann), Don Goldberg (DAG), Sherry Krauter, and many others unlisted repair person should save you a ton of money. Depends on where you live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee hamiel Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 As a business owner I don't feel the prices are unreasonable with the cost of overhead & skilled labor involved. If one had a Xerox service call for the same amount of time it would probably be close to the same amount if not more. It's much easier to keep costs down if you're a small shop. Leica is not going to be philanthropic to it's loyalists either as it's in business to make money. Imagine what Hermes charges for a replacement strap for one of it's handbags - there's a reason Hermes took a stake in Leica as it's a luxury goods company and most of the time people don't ask how much does it cost but rather how soon can i have it. You could also check with some of the other service providers that do Leica work & save a few dollars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_ilomaki Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 John This may not be exactly the same, but I recently was thinking of getting a new MB car, and in checking out the maintenance charges, the MB dealers charge $185 CDN per hour, where the Volvo dealer charges only(!!!) $80. I bought a Volvo, not only for that reason, but it was a factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry_chu2 Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 John, It seems to me that Leica is hedging their bet. Without having the camera in hand, they are speculating that a complete CLA is necessary. The rangefinder adjustment takes very little time and I remember hearing a story of one Leica owner, who lives near Northvale, walking into Leica with a rangefinder misalignment issue and having the problem rectified within minutes without a charge. I deal with a camera repair person locally and the rangefinder adjustments he has made for me have been free. (Of course, it helps to take him to lunch every once in a while.) On the other hand, $320 for a CLA every 10 years or so is relatively cheap; especially when I see numerous Canon 1Ds's for sale at half their original price just two years after their introduction. The depreciation there is the cost of 12 CLA's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aizan_sasayama Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 <a href="http://www.nemeng.com/leica/034b.shtml" target="_lank">DIY</a>. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuart_richardson Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 It seems to me that it is fairly cheap. I know my father bought an M6 back when they came out, and he has been shooting it for twenty years without a CLA. I checked the speeds and everything seems fine to me. I would say that is pretty cheap to maintain. Even if he did CLA it, that's 300 dollars for 20 years of use. Point me to the car maker that can do that, and I will pay <i>you</i> 300 bucks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__jon__ Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Hmmm... Two CLAs in 20 years for my M6... that's cheap. The second wouldn't have been needed if Leica NJ had done the first one correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_shriver Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Camera repairs have never been exactly cheap. (Don't forget the ravages of inflation.) At least a Leica can be repaired. No "Sorry, they don't make that circuit board anymore!" Even if it sometimes means making a part. The low-power constant-acceleration Leica shutter is much fussier than other, more modern, focal plane shutter designs. The plus side of the shutter not having much (spring) power behind it is that it is quiet, but you pay for more maintenance sensitivity. So that is what makes a Leica CLA pricey. But, one certainly doesn't need a CLA in order to adjust the rangefinder! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger_michel Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 factory service for any product, like dealer service for cars, is always the most expensive option. if you live in a large city, especially on the east or west coast of the usa, there is almost certainly a local repairer who can do an alignment for $50 or less. if you have an ongoing business relationship witha repairer, it is the kind of thing he may well do for free. it is also very easy to do it yourself. don't assume every problem means a CLA; and don't assume that only sherry, dan, gerry or leica NJ are the only places who can do CLAs. if you live near boston, email me offline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan d. chang Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 If it is a M6 you are out of luck, the adjustment need a special tool, If it is others you can do it yourself or locally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huw_finney Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 DIY, much cheaper! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben z Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 A friend of mine who used to work at Leica in the repair department (not as a technician though)told me when he was there Leica always insisted on doing a full overhaul no matter what the problem. They stopped doing specific repairs allegedly because people would sent the cameras back with other problems claiming they weren't wrong before Leica had worked on it and they ended up doing complete overhauls for free. Don't know if that was true then or now. If all your Leica really needs is a rangefinder adjustment, call Don or Sherry and ask if they'll agree to do just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliot_rosen Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Apparently Leica will only do the full CLA, which means testing and adjusting the shutter speeds, etc. They probably don't want to have to fix one thing and then have an angry customer tell them there was something else wrong that they could have fixed while they had the camera. You may be able to find someone here to do just the rangefinder adjustment for less money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rod g. Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 "Imagine what Hermes charges for a replacement strap for one of it's handbags - there's a reason Hermes took a stake in Leica as it's a luxury goods company and most of the time people don't ask how much does it cost but rather how soon can i have it." If a Hermes bag needs a replacement strap Hermes should pay all shipping AND fix it for free. If a high end, big ticket item falls apart it's either defective or junk, and the company should stand behind what they produce. That said, when you buy a Leica you probably already know the shutter will need servicing about every 15 years no matter how much you pay for the camera, Kindermann in Toronto quoted me a ballpark $250.00 to $350.00 Canadian for a CLA, a bit cheaper than N.J. Leica. That, my friend, is in part the price of owning a camera/collectable that confers serious status and prestige on its owner. Then again you can always save &320.00 by foregoing the CLA and just wear the camera around as a fashion accessory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan flanders Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 I do a lot of leather work and sometimes someone brings me a camera case that has the stitching coming apart. When I quote a repair charge many can't understand why it costs more to repair than it sold for originally. They don't realize that taking the damn thing apart to repair it involves time and sometimes replacement of leather that has dried out and crumbbles, and that the repair person has a bundle invested in tools and equipment. A Leica ERC with the stiching rotted around the fastening screw even requires special tools to remove the screw and then reinstall it. I've used and traded caneras for fifty or so years and never begrudged the cost of legitimate repairs. You will search far and wide to find another commodity that will yield the years of useful service that a quality camera will, paricularly a Leica, if properly maintained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuart_richardson Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Rod -- don't tell me that you seriously expect a camera with a complex shutter and film advance system (by this, I am excluding view cameras etc) to stay in peak condition for 15 years of use without a tune up? Lubricants change consistency and work their way out of the parts they are supposed to work for, vibrations stress components, foam decays -- these are all unpreventable occurrences. There are plenty M3's that have never had a CLA that still work, but that does not mean that they don't need to be worked on. It's like a car, many can drive 10,000-15,000 miles without an oil change, but that does not mean they should... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliot_rosen Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Stuart, I believe Rod is right, it can last 15 years with regular use, which means exercising the shutter speeds once a month if you do not use the camera. Heavy professional use and total lack of use may necessitate more frequent tune up. But I have an M4-P that has gone at least that long without service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuart_richardson Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Eliot -- if that is what he is saying, then I agree, but it sounded to me like he meant that it should work longer than that without service....or that it should not require service at all. If that is the case, then I disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericd Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 This isn't especially a Leica connected problem. IMO the main cause is the lack of skilled workmanships. Where I leave (somewhere in France) their are two skilled repairement for mechanical cameras they were four a few years ago. The first is cheap an is the kind of guy that is so gentle that he will not refuse any work. He has a lot of work, in fact too much : he's overworked he gas huge delays and sometimes does bad work thus is had many returns and then he has more work. Where it get really embarrasing is that there's a lot of people who prefer their old mechanical cameras (you can include me but also my sister who burn at best 2 rolls per year but is conviced that her Minolta XG-1 is a much better camera than her digital Nikon, and you can't imagine the number of people who told me "those SRT/FM/FTb/K1000/Retina/(add your favorite).... where great cameras taking beautiful photos without flash") but the problem is that these camera are getting old : cheap repairmen have a lot of work simply to replace foam ! Let's come to the second repairman he has found the solution to have less work : he increase his prices. It's simple for 200$ you will not bring him a jammed Minolta SRT-100X : you will do it yourself if you have the guts or search another used camera. That's how he ends repairing mainly Leica, Nikon F and MF cameras. That's also why they are more and more camera hackers.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grant_. Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 <i>Two CLAs in 20 years for my M6</i> <br><br> jon, you obviously dont use your cameras that much do you...? i need one of these at least every 2 years...the rf gets outta wack with constant use, as does the timings of the shutter. you might wanna get out there more often? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john15 Posted December 17, 2004 Author Share Posted December 17, 2004 Thanks for the informative responses. I only checked with Leica NJ because I live about an hour or so away from Northvale and I could hand deliver the camera. I can sort of understand why Leica wouldn't agree to simply adjust the vertical RF alignment but insisted on a complete CLA. However, if Leica designed the M6 so that a special [expensive] tool is required to effect an adjustment that was a DIY job with the earlier Ms. it seems to me that they might be a bit more flexible in performing this basic service. Or make the tool more affordable. I don't see good reason for a CLA as the shutter seems to be OK and, as the saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I can probably find someone in NYC to adjust the RF and if that function becomes a chronic problem than, perhaps, I will turn the M6 in on an earlier M [M4-P, M4-2?] where the RF can be adjusted in the field. Or buy a Bessa R3A. I love the feel-in-hand of the Leica M but the Bessa feels pretty good, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richie chishty Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 The new Bessa R3A looks very tempting! Costs less than two CLAs for a Leica M! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericd Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 But a noisy shutter isn'it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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