Is the Zone System applicable to slides?

[fanta]

I wonder how the Zone System can be applied to slides, if at all. My

doubt is that the system foresees a scale of 10 values, from 0 to 9,

where each step corresponds to 1 stop. But with slides we have a much

shorter dynamic range available, say a bit more than 5 stops,

compared to negatives. So is the scale of 10 values still suitable?

 

For an example, consider to take a slide of a snow landscape, and you

want to place the lightest snow in zone 8; you meter that snow and

add 4 stops to the meter reading. That would place the snow in zone

8... but wouldn't you also exceed the slide dynamic range, and snow

will be completely burned?

 

Any though?

[fanta]

Sorry, that had to be you add 3 stops (not 4) to place the metered snow in zone 8.

[frank_oddsocks]

Dead right, with slides you place the highlight at +2.5 stops. (Though typically you want some detail in snow so would place it at 1.5 to 2.)

<p>

The oft-forgotten half of the zone system is the pushing or pulling of film in development, which of course requires either sheet film or several backs or bodies.

<p>

I highly recommend you get hold of Adams's 3 volumes (<i>Camera</i>, <i>Negative</i> and <i>Print</i>) and decide for yourself what you think of them. They have been posthumously "improved" so I would look in a library for earlier editions.

[James G. Dainis]

Zone system = "Expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights"<P>

 

Since you don't do that with color slide film, all you can do is placement of the zones. With most slide films, Zone 2 would be pure black and Zone 8 would be clear. It still may be best to expose for the shadows and let the highlights fall where they may. With snow, if that is the important feature, place it on Zone 7; meter the snow and open up two stops.

[alan_olander1664878205]

Since slide film is "reversed" from negatives, I think exposing for the highlights and letting the shadows fall where they may would be best. Dark shadows are more pleasing to the eye than blown out hightlights.

[jim kerr]

Francesco, Alan is right. But may I add that a pre-exposure of zone I,I 1/2,or II would in most cases help the shadow details somewhat, if your camera can do double exposures...Jim

[david_henderson]

Using a spotmeter to understand and influence where the elements of your composition will lie , exposure -wise, is a valid technique, indeed a very good technique. Whether you'd term that "zone system" is a different (and not very important) issue. With one of the contrastier slide films (eg Velvia) you wouldn't want to increase exposure by more than two stops away from a mid-tone if you want any detail. Even with a film with more latitude I wouldn't want to increase exposure by more than 2.5 stops. If you insist on hanging onto zone system nomenclature rather than simply assessing eg. "that tree will be a stop darker than a mid-tone, is that ok?" then you might be better off substituting half stops for stops.

[andy_ly1]

And its funny to see people push their slides without knowing what purpose it serves.

 

Slide film has a narrower range of light.. approximately 4 stops, so anything put on Zone III will pretty much be black. Zone VII is maximum white for slide film.

[kelly_flanigan1]

The slope of the DlogE curve varies somewhat with the development time of E2, E3; E4; and E6 films. Usually folks dont mess with this. Colors shift; some folks like slides to be correct in color. In scientific work; sometimes transparency films are varied in development time.

[johndc]

"Zone system = 'Expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights'"

 

That's a bit deceiving. With the zone system you don't necessarily "expose for the shadows". You expose to place a particular scenic value at a particular place on the film curve. You then develop to expand or contract that curve to get the values you want in the final print.

 

To me the phrase "expose for shadows, develop for highlights" always seems to imply "overexpose-underdevelop", which is great if you want strong shadow detail and flat highlights, but not so good otherwise.

[James G. Dainis]

John,<P>

No, that is wrong. Over or underdevelopment can only affect the highlights not the shadows. Find the area of shadow that you want to show some detail and set the exposure for that (zone 1). If the highlights will fall of zone 10, ( sunny day) underdevelop to bring them down to zone 8 or zone 9. If the highlights will fall on zones 7 or 8 overdevelop to bring them up to zone 9.<br>

<a href=http://www.geocities.com/dainisjg/zone.html><U>What is the Zone system?</U><A>

[andy_piper2]

As already alluded to, the Zone System is a COMBINATION of exposure and development techniques, not just exposure. Unless you can vary the development also, simply moving things around on the Zone scale and placing them somewhere exposurewise is NOT-NOT-NOT "using the Zone System". It's a caricature at best.

 

Presumably if you bought your own E6 kit, you could experiment with controlling contrast through varying the first developer time, and actually use the full Zone System to some extent. But you'd very quickly run into color-cast problems if the over/underdevelopment moves more than about a stop's worth off normal, especially on the "pull" side.

 

As to the original practical question - yes, adding four stops to a quote-zone-V-unquote meter reading would blow out highlights on slide film. Opening up 2 stops is the usual rule of thumb for snow on slides. If you worked out the dev. time for a 1-stop "pull" E6 development, you might be able to stretch that to 3 stops and gain some shadow detail without losing the snow.

[johndc]

No James, it isn't wrong.

 

Development affects the ENTIRE film curve. However the effect is non-linearly proportional. That is to say that, for example, an development change of +%30 may add 0.3 to the density of a Zone VII exposure, while only adding 0.05 to the density of a Zone III exposure. This is why pushing film can result in a higher speed point.

 

But you missed what I was trying to say. My point was that when you tell people "expose shadows, develop highlights" they will take it as a hard and fast rule and they will ALWAYS expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights. It's not a hard and fast rule, however. Some images look quite good with solid black shadows or washed out highlights. Zone system can be used to create these kind of images as well as any others, and it is not simply limited to the ESDH rule.

[kelly_flanigan1]

Over development never pulls the toe up much at all; but it does make the slope greater. The DlogE curve starts out flat then goes thru the toe region; then to the ramp section then to the shoulder region. Overdevelopment moves the sloped section but barely pulls the stubborn toe region at all.

[kelly_flanigan1]

Pushing film adds almost no real ISO film speed; because iso film speed requires the DlogE curve to fit thru a certain set of test points. You can develop a roll of film for an hour; and the stuff barely exposed in the deep deep shadows is still barely moved. The increase of contrast of the more exposed areas will result.

[bill_tuthill]

John Shaw, heavily published nature photographer, has devised a

5-stop zone system for slide film. I learned about it on a website

that seems to have disappeared, but I'm sure he talks about it in

one of his books. Maybe the Nature forum would know which book.

[steve_swinehart]

Minor White wrote a book called the "Zone System Manual." The first edition of this book was published in 1946.

 

To quote Minor White on the use of color materials and the Zone System; "Though the restricted development control limits the possibilities of the material, this does not hinder previsualization. Previsualization, as was said, is always done according to the nature of the film in the camera and the photographic printing paper in the dark room."

 

"Previsualization stands for the act of looking at a scene with the physical eye and seeing in the mind's eye how a medium can render a subject."

 

If this sounds like what you want to do -- then the Zone System will work for you with color materials.

 

In color, the Zone System will allow you to evaluate a scene and make the exposure as you "see it," while taking into account the photographic materials you are using. It cannot provide range of control of tonal rendering that is available with black and white materials, but you can still use the basic methods to provide control of the color materials and make them respond to your visualization.

When you use the Zone System there are distinct steps that are followed.

 

1. Observation/evaluation (looking at the subject and evaluating the luminance range).

 

2. Visualization (how do you want the final print to look).

 

3. Exposure (how to expose the film to render your visualization, including the use of filters).

 

4. Development (how is the film developed to render you visualization. With black and white this means "Normal" "Normal + (over development) or "Normal -" (under development). With color film you are mostly limited to "Normal" as plus or minus may cause some color shifts.

 

5. Printing (choice of print material)

 

You can certainly use steps 1-3 every time you make a photograph. Step 4 may be applicable if you want to cross process or push process. Step 5 is also applicable as the choice of final print material influences the type of film used; and some color print materials allow a choice of contrast grades.

 

How do you use the Zone System with color? Observe the subject. Evaluate the subject and note the differences in luminance values (EV numbers on your meter).

 

Visualize the final print. Identify the "key tone" in the subject. For example, in a portrait this might be the skin (highlight or shadow is your decision). In a landscape it would be the main subject. Decide what Zone value you want your "key tone" rendered. Place the key tone EV value across from the red arrow on your spot meter.

 

This will "place" the value at 18% grey or Zone V. If you want it to be Zone VI, give one stop more exposure; if you want it to be Zone IV give one stop less exposure.

 

If you have metered the entire range of the scene, when you "place" your key tone at the Zone value you want, you can then evaluate where the other subject EV values will "fall," which will then tell you what Zone value they will be rendered at. In color, this equates to color saturation and detail of the areas associated with the EV number.