Do "we" need a new 6x9 film camera?

[paul.droluk]

Hopefully some of you know about our Fotoman 612 and 617 Cameras. (http://

www.fotomancamera.com) Well... we were wondering if there is a desire in the community

for a new 6x9 hand holdable film camera. If the demand is there, we will build it! We have

been contemplating doing a 6x9 since Fuji dicontinued theirs. Our design thoughts are for

a smaller version of our 612 but using a horseman (or comperable) 6x9 back, Cones and

Helical focus mounts for LF lenses from 180mm down to the 35mm Rodenstock, and at

least rise in both axis. We would like to hear your opinions regarding the appeal of such a

design, and any additional design suggestions you might have.

[david_goldfarb]

Neat looking cameras, but I'm not sure what a 6x9 as you've described it would provide over existing cameras in the market like the Cambo Wide DS. If you could make one with rangefinder focusing, though, that would fill a real absence.

[paul_wilson2]

I've considered, off and on, a 6x9 camera like that. How close would the price be to the PAQ Pro system that SK Grimes sells? Also, it seems that you could make your system cheaper to the buyer by recommending Voightlander finders instead of making your own.

[glenn_kroeger]

Paul:

 

I think there is a great need, but only if you go beyond what others have done. Silvestri, Cambo, Alpa and others have built MF systems with cones and helical mounts with varying amounts of shift. But nobody has given us any tilt capability. Thus most landscape and many architectural shooters must still use overpriced MF viewcameras or oversized LF view cameras just to achieve a few degrees of tilt for focus control.

 

If the Photoman Pro has removable backs, presumably we could attach a groundglass when tilt was needed. But find a way to give us a few degrees of tilt and you open up an entirely new market segment.

[simonpg]

Great idea. 6x9 is beautiful. But I bought Voigtlander Bessa and Super Ikonta versions. Here in Australia, a guy has taken to converting Polaroid Land Cameras to 6x9 and 6x12 using Horseman and Graflex backs and has engineered these beautifully.

 

Hours sounds a great initiative and concepts look good.

[charles_stobbs3]

I own several folders but I worry about the durability of the bellows. Is a helicoid like the Medallist a better solution? Also what are the expenses involved with a 6 x 9 scanner?

[dave_leonard]

>I own several folders but I worry about the durability of the bellows. Is a helicoid like the Medallist a better solution? Also what are the expenses involved with a 6 x 9 scanner?<

 

I wouldn't worry to much about the duability of a bellows. I have several bellows cameras with bellows over 50 years old (some over 70) and they are still going. They are more rugged then most people realize, and small punctures, if they occur, are easy to repair.

 

Dave

[majid]

Would they have a rangefinder? I realize a RF would be incompatible with tilt, but the RF is one of the big attractions in the Fuji 690 series.

[randall cherry]

I know I would quickly buy a 6x9 rangefinder that could accept the Schneider and Rodenstock lenses, no tilt feature necessary.

[3d-aeropanoramic project]

unfortunately i had not time visiting you at photokina. if such a camera will be offered the main concern should be concentrating in a perfect film-flatness/flattening system. why should i invest in a non-perfect system. i would rather buy a contax 645 with the vaccum-220-film-system. i have had enough unsharp images with artpanorama 612(mamyia-ok a toy), also linhof( i dont remember the exact name) and hasselblad aeroshots with a12-back(120)(ok the solution is using 70mm-back and darkslide-slit covered).shift/tilt in a new camera is an absolute must.

i would like to mount 67/70mm-backs like the calumet. how about a 69/70mm-back? was there such a model made? i think a 6x12/70mm was once made. i know someone in the usa who can provide us with cheap 120 usd-70mm tanks for jobo-rotating-system cpa/cpp and some more sophisticated autolabs. there are some fantastic 70mm-films around-above all avicolor from agfa. one special film even has no orange mask(perfect for scanning and can easily produce perfect b+w. i think its called x-100. a 800 asa-version is available.plus h100 with sensational highest contrast. can be adjusted without loosing color-quality. results of avicolor n400 can be seen here used for aeropanoramas:

http://www.europanorama.tk

[oren_grad]

What I'd most like to see is a 6x9 camera that weighs no more than a Fuji 6x9 (i.e., about 50 oz including lens) and with a rangefinder coupled to any one of four Rodenstock lenses (90/5.6 Apo-Sironar-Digital, 100/5.6 Apo-Sironar-N, 100/5.6 Apo-Sironar-S, or 105/5.6 Apo-Sironar-Digital). I'm sure that's utter fantasy, though.

 

Getting back to reality, I think you could make a camera that has some market appeal if it's much cheaper and much lighter than current offerings. For example, the closest counterpart I can think of, the Horseman SW6x9 Pro, costs about $4250 with the 90/6.8 Grandagon-N and a 6x9 roll-holder, and weighs more than 2 kg so equipped.

 

I'd rather that you leave out movements and removable backs to save weight and cost - if I want to fuss with those, I'll be working from a tripod, and in that case I might as well use my Horseman VH anyway. Weight is a critical issue for me in hand-held use - anything that weighs more than the Fuji 6x9 models is too much for me to handle, and thus would defeat the purpose. If you could get the weight of the camera with a very compact lens (say a 100 Apo-Sironar-N) down to Mamiya 6/7 territory - around 40 oz - it would be ideal. But I don't know what your current models weigh, so I'm not sure whether that's at all possible.

 

Thanks for asking.

[wayne_crider4]

I just can't see it as a wise move overall. A tilt feature would be a big plus, but

the market for cameras in this range has to be limited, maybe even very

limited, and what are you R&D and tooling cost? As far as 6x9 is concerned,

there seems to be enough around used. I and a friend both own Century's

and for less then $200 we get by the cost of the helical focusing mounts with a

greater range of lenses available for a small package, albeit the one lens

adjustment. Maybe you ought to think about a 6x9, or even 6x7 option for your

existing camera platforms.

[mark_tomalty]

Glenn

 

I have been using a couple of Horesman 612 cameras for a few years and,like you,

would find a few degrees of tilt very beneficial.

I don't know if you're familiar with the Horseman but the lens ia attached by 4 screws

placed in each corner of the mount.If you want to live on the edge you can get a little

tilt by loosening the top two screws until they reach the very last thread.This will

squeeze you a little tilt but you do have to tape the slight opening to avoid flare.

 

Mark

[oscar_van_der_velde]

Another vote for tilt capability. Just like the Linhof 612 has a fixed amount of vertical shift, one could make a 6x9 or 6x12 (I'd like the latter) with a fixed amount of downward tilt. Any amount would already increase the depth of field. Of course, movements make use of the image circle, and the very wide lenses probably may not have the desired wide circle and quality. But a 65mm/75mm maybe? <br><br>

Also a light 6x9 with interchangeable lenses and useable bulb setting would be a great improvement over a Fuji 690 GSW.<br><br>

Of course, anyone would like to see a 6x9 SLR with view camera capabilities, and light weight (ugh). The Fuji 680 comes close but is too heavy and complicated for the field.... :(

<br><br>

I'm still waiting for a review of the present Fotoman cameras!

[b_kosoff]

I'd love a good 6x9 system, something hand holdable, similiar to the Fuji

G690 series. Interchangeable lenses ranging from 50mm to 400mm,

hopefully a range finder for most of the lenses.

 

I question the the use of the horseman back, it's my understanding that that

particular back has greater than normal film flatness issues.

[dan_fromm2]

Paul, I'm not sure you should pay any attention to my opinion on this because your gear is priced far too high for an amateur like me. This is not to say that the Fotoman 612 and 617 are overpriced, just that they're out of my range. I expect the same would be true of a 69.

 

I shoot 2x3 with a 2x3 Pacemaker Speed Graphic and a Century Graphic. I use lenses ranging from a 38/4.5 Biogon to a 12"/4 Taylor Hobson telephoto. My money, and not much of it, went for optics, not camera bodies.

 

On the one hand, a well-calibrated focusing mechanism would be nice to have, as would more rise than my Graphics offer. On the other, I don't have the money for a Fotoman 69 and I'm not sure that having y'r proposed camera would improve my life or my photography.

 

I continue to be amazed at the prices Alpa demands for the 12S, especially since nearly all that can be done with one can be done with a Century Graphic, and a Century will do more. Its true that my 38 Biogon doesn't cover nominal 6x9, but it comes close to nominal 6x7. All of my longer lenses, from my 47/5.6 SA up, cover nominal 6x9 just fine.

 

But, and this may be good news for your efforts, I seem to be in a tiny minority. And the Alpa 12 and your cameras are certainly classier than my humble Graphics.

 

Regards, good luck,

 

Dan

[jo_irps]

Do "we" need a new 6x9 film camera? My answer is "yes". But ... as Dan said before me, not for your prices (as on the 612 and 617). There is a small market for wide angle 6x9, like the Fuji 690 or even better something like the old Plaubel Veriwide 100. As the Veriwides are hard to find in good conditions, I have made my own one. I stripped an old Agfa Billy II folder, had a lens board machined fron alumium, fitted the old Schneider Super Angulon 47/8 with an helical mount and joined it to the Agfa body. As a finder I use the Russen 20mm, but the Voigtlander 21mm will also do. What I have is a light weight, cheap 6x9. Slides scanned on a dedicated MF film scanner and cropped to 2:1 ratio (9x4.5) gives me better resolution than 6x12 scanned on a flat bed.

 

Paul, think of producing something of a lightweight body like the old folders to which anybody can mount his or hers w/a lens. Tilt and shift is not very important, that can be done by post processing in Photoshop or the like.

 

As of a shift mechanism, there is an simple solution as designet by Ralph Fuerbringer on his Vistshift 612. He uses an adapter frame similar to the Graphlexfor one for Horseman film holders. On this frame he has put the adapter pins off center to the horizontal line by a few mm. By taking the frame off, rotating it by 180 degrees and replacing it he has got a shift, a fixed one, but anyway.

[walter_batla]

Sounds like an awful lot of trouble to make something to do a job that can be done much better with existing 4x5 cameras. I can't imagine how you could effectively use lens board movements combined with hand held or rangefinder. If the idea is a quality image, get a 4x5 where needed, or a good MR where needed.

[emile_de_leon9]

Perhaps this might be a nice idea but...wouldn't a current version of the Brooks Veriwide 100 be a better idea to fill a larger market void? A nice lightweight MF WA camera in 6x10 (way better than 6x9, closer to the golden mean)with no moves(people will use a view camera for that anyway)with a 1st class WA lens permantly mounted on the front to bring costs down as well as the complexity and weight. The market for this camera being aimed at the Leica people who want a portable complimentary MF camera and also for the LF folks that want a smaller camera to travel with with a big 6x10 neg not to mention the MF buyers. Mount a lens that is good wide open on it like the helvetar 48mm or something similar.I would buy a camera like that as long as you could keep the weight down. Good luck!

[chris_waller]

I have a friend who uses the Fuji 6x9, this latter now no longer in production, sadly. I have a Mamiya 6x9 Press 23 which needs repairing but I love the format - same aspect ratio as 35mm but a much bigger neg.

[tak_l._poon1]

very nice camera, and very nice choices of lenses. I would suggest, esp for the 617 a filter with center gradient for a more even illumination of film plane.

 

best of wishes!

 

Tak