which folders have auto frame count? +120-film backing question

[bacsa]

Hi, forum...

 

I have a question -should be easy for the knowledgeable folks here:)

Which medium format folder (preferably 6x9 but 6x6 suggestions also

welcome!) has automatic frame counting(with 120-type film)? Or, at

least, blocks the winding when the new frame is in the film gate

(even if it does not say the number of the frame).

 

I only know about the feature of the Moskva-5 which *unblocks* the

shutter after reaching a new 6x6 type frame...not good enough.

 

I'm open to any brand/type, but i'd prefer models with a better

lens/shutter (tessar type or better triplet; shutter with more than

3-4 speeds).

 

Question no. 2: is the paper back of the 120-type film always loose

on the inner end (inner when new out from the box)? Or, are there

some which have the film taped to the paper on both ends?

 

Thanks alot! cheers.

[daniel_cytron]

Perkeo II

[javier_gonzalez]

Hello. I own (and love) an Iskra (6x6) with the feature you mention. Mine works well, but it seems that very often it is broken and replaced with a hand made ruby window. I suppose the Super Isolette has automatic frame counter too, as it is said the Iskra is based on it.

 

Regarding your second question, all 120 films I have developed until now (kodak, ilford and agfa B&W, don't know about neg. color, slides or fuji) have only taped the front end to the paper, not the rear. Best regards.

 

Javier

[glenn_thoreson]

I can't help with the cameras but perhaps I can help with your film question. The film is only taped to the paper at the leading end. The reason for this is that due to the variation in difference in diameter of the loaded spool vs the takeup spool, and the difference in length between the paper vs film, the film has to be able to "creep" as it winds. I hope this explanation makes sense. My brain hurts.

[richard_oleson]

I've never had a MF folder with a mechanical frame stop, it would be nice; I have a Seagull with lever wind that you can sneak by with: it advances about 20mm per stroke, so at the 645 setting it's a 2-stroke wind and at 6x6 it's 3 strokes... but frame spacing varies and you get overlap at one end of the roll, as i recall, if you advance blind that way.

 

all paper backed film is taped at only one end. Otherwise it wouldn't be able to lay flat as it unrolls.

 

:)=

[charles_stobbs3]

Kodak Monitor (and I asume Medalist) but you have to respool the film to 620 spools.

[__stu_evans]

In 6x6 there's Balda Baldix, Hapo66. Both stop and lock and some have counter.

 

Never seen two ends taped.

[marbing]

My Super Ikonta B does.

[terry_scott]

The Agfa Super Isolette certainly has this feature. Lace up the film, shut the back, and wind the film: it stops at frame 1 automatically (shades of the upmarket Rolleiflex models). After you have taken an exposure, you wind on - then it stops you winding once you've got to the next frame. It's a superb camera, with 6x6cm format, shutter speeds of B + 1-1/500 sec and a coupled rangefinder.

[Andrew in Austin]

In 6x6 format, both the Agfa Super Isolette and its twin the Ansco Super Speedex not only feature an automatic frame stop, but upon winding to the first frame the camera has a roller which senses the beginning of the emmulsion. It then automatically stops the winder at the first frame. You just thread the film into the take-up spool, close the door and wind the film until it stops.

 

The KMZ Iskra should have the same set of features, as it is essentially a clone of the Agfa Super Isolette.

 

The Zeiss Super Ikonta III and IV have an automatic stop for each frame. Their initial loading only requires one to properly line up the arrows on the paper backing with a red mark on the film chamber.

 

The Voigtlander Perkeo II and Zeiss Ikon Super Ikonta B models require you to use the red window to line up the first frame, but automatically stop the winding action after that.

 

All of the above cameras were sold as luxury models and are fitted with a variation of the Tessar lens set within either a 9 speeed Compur-Rapid or 9/10 speed Synchro-Compur shutter. The Iskra uses a 10 speed Moment shutter.

 

I'm curious as why you wish to know if some rollfilms have tape at both ends of the film to the paper backing. The paper backing on roll film only needs to be tape to the beginning of the film itself. Are you planning on loading a respooled roll of film into the camera backwards????

[mike_elek]

The earliest Super Ikonta 6x6 (531/16) had this feature after setting the first frame. It might have been one of the first to have automatic frame positioning. Of course, you only get 11 shots, rather than 12.

 

Others include the Medalist I and II -- like the Super Ikonta B, you have to manually position the first frame.

 

As far as I know, the film is only taped on one end.

[mike_elek]

... whoops. The Medalist I and II aren't folder (though they are classic cameras).

[bacsa]

Thanks for the nice suggestions! I see, there's no sign of 6x9 with auto stop.....:(Not even the super ikonta C?

 

I tell you why i wanted the film taped at the end. Indeed, the plan is to load it reverse(upside down) - the second time! I thought of making a panoramic camera a la xpan in the cheapest way, by fabricating a mask for the film gate of a folder, that blocks half of the film frame, say, the bottom half. I get this way a 6x3 or, with a 6x9-type folder, a 9x3 (approx) panoramic format on 120 film. When the film is done, not to waste the other half, i would load it again, without respooling of course, upside down-backwards and expose the top half of the frames in the same way.

 

I do realize that the quality at the outer corners would be worse than at the inner corners. However, a better lens stopped down (landscapes, infinity focused etc) should not show a big difference. But a not-taped film end would make the backward loading somewhat complicated.

 

A red-window-type frame alignment would make things quite difficult, however. I'm not sure i can even see the numbers when the neg is loaded upside down.

 

An extra advantage (besides easier framing)of this method would be, against using 35mm film in the MF folder, that the pressure plate is correctly calibrated and there's no curling of the film strip.

 

Could be done simply by cropping the final negative before printing, however, that's too simple:) and not too cost-efficient. Also, all the frames would be nicely aligned along the negative; if I cut a 120-type film in two, in its length, i have two neg strips which are almost 35mm-size, thus a 35mm film scanner can be used to get the pano's online/printed/etc.

 

Just a small project of mine, for fun.

[jonathan_james]

There is a 6 x 9 folder with automatic film spacing. It is the Kodak Monitor which is referred to above. I have one at auction at the moment - look at http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3851238282&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT to see it.

[claudia__]

Bessa 66 (Baby Bessa) does

[bacsa]

Jonathan: that looks nice! Where does the film counter roller roll, on the film surface or on the edge of the film spool?

 

How's the off-center image quality with the Monitor?

[winfried_buechsenschuetz1]

The Hapo66, unlike its non-rebranded sister Super Baldax, does NOT have automatic frame counting. The Hapo66E has some kind of frame counter but frame spacing depends on the ruby window. I never had a Super Baldax in my hands but I think it has a true frame spacing mechanism.

 

The CertoSix 6x6 folder has automatic frame spacing and lever wind.

 

BTW there were just two folders (I think one was made by Agilux of England, the other one was the Dacora Royal) with automatic shutter cocking, i.e. the shutter was cocked by turning the advance lever.

[john_shriver]

Yes, the Kodak Monitor Six-20 has auto frame spacing, but you don't need to respool onto a 620 spool, just nip off the edges of the 120 spool, and use a 620 take-up spool.

 

It also has double-exposure protection (if you use the body shutter button). But you still have to remember to cock the shutter! (I've forgotten that many times!)

[Jochen_S]

Well I like the features of the Agfa Super Isolette described above. Unluckily these windingknobs tend to grind the skin of my fingers during hard days of more than 2 rolls.

Why don't you choose some presscamera (Technika / Graphic) with Super Rollex? They are at least semi automatic, wind, shoot, trigger counter to be able to wind again. The winding lever seems more comfortable than Agfas knob. press cameras aren't much slower than rangefinders and always very useful. Calumet slide in holders are nearly the same in operation, but more comfortable when you like to use your groundglass from time to time.

[mike_elek]

The non-folder Kodak Medalist I and II are 6x9 cameras. They're really big cameras.

[scott smitherman]

But they are so much fun!!

[steve g]

My Zeiss Ikon Super Ikonta B, 532/16 does this. It's a 6x6 camera, with rangefinder and 80mm f2.8 lens. Get it to the first frame, set it, close the window, and from then on you have accurate frame advancement and counting.

[kai_griffin]

Already mentioned above - my Super Ikonta 533/16 does this.

 

But the reason for my addition here is to clarify the Voigtlander Perkeo II situation: it's true that the Perkeo II has auto frame-counting/stopping... but the Perkeo IIe (the one with built-in uncoupled rangefinder that some people find so desirable) does *not* have it; it's back to the red-window for that model.

 

Cheers,

Kai

[pc1]

i guess my Super Ikonta 524/2 has this feature too . have never encountered 120 film taped at both ends . cheers ! pc

[bacsa]

Thank you all, again. Have a nice light!