nkag Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 I'm in for the 19th. Name the time and place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert_clark Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Masatoshi, having re-read Claude's matchbox summary of an expat's expectations in Japan, I can't really see the racism. Most of what he says about the Japanese seems complementary - good learners, sabotaged by national language learning strategies etc. and most is positive about Japan - good food, transport etc. Most of what he implies about certain types of Americans, on the other hand, seems less than complementary. Is it whites being treated as second class citizens or Japanese being a difficult language to learn that you find offensive? I'd be intrigued to hear more of your point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claude_batmanghelidj Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Uh, Masa-chan, genki ja nai? Doshta no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claude_batmanghelidj Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Here's a Japanese Joke: Me: Nan ji desu ka? Masa-chan: Oyaji desu! It would definitely be lost in translation though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abufletcher Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Masatoshi, harsh words but often painfully true -- and again not just in Japan. I've taught in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman, Mexico, and for the last 8 years in Japan (a total of over 20 years as an expat/foreigner/hawaja/gringo/gaijin so I have a pretty good handle on the personality types you tend to find. At least in the Arabian Gulf (Arabs don't call it the Persian Gulf) an MA in a language related field (preferably linguistics or TESOL) was the golden ticket to a job so there was a good deal more professionalism in the teaching there. There weren't really any opporunities for "private" language schools and visas were very tightly controlled. In fact, in Saudi you actually had to hand your passport over to your employer upon arrival in the country and only got it back when you left. In contrast, the English teaching scene in many places in Asia (Japan, Taiwan, China, Thailand, Korea, etc.) operates more freely as a market economy. You'll find people with every possible skill level hauking their linguistic wares at a wide variety of prices. Some people are happy with "privates" for 3,000 yen an hour. Some charge 10,000 an hour. The professional teachers among them are also "selling" their hard-earned skills as an educator/writer/editor while at the other end of the spectrum are people charging essentially for being a "foreign friend" -- this last group I like to think of as "language gigalos." From what I've heard and from the info available on Dave's ESL Cafe (a major clearing house for ESF/EFL jobs overseas) the situation in Korea is even wilder and often less scrupulous than in Japan. While the tone of Claude's comments was unfortunate (and yes just a little racist and/or colonial), a certain amount of what he says is true. For example, the male gaijin with his Japanese girlfriend/wife is not just a cliche but a statistical regularity. People here can hardly believe my wife is NOT from Japan. And one (highly embarrasing) question my female university students regularly ask visiting male exchange students in class is: "Do you like Japanese girls?" Of course you have to keep in mind that the term "gaijin" (or the more polite "gaikokujin") is largely reserved for the white-skinned variety. African Americans are usually called "kokojin" (black people) while other "unidentifiable" Asians are just "asia-jin." Japanese, by the way, tend to think of themselves as the "white asians" as opposed to the Chinese or Southeast Asians. BTW, these are not my opinions, but the opinins expressed by students in my cross-cultural awareness classes year after year. When it comes to foreigners there is a definite preference order: 1) white-ish English speaking foreigners 2) other white-ish foreigners 3) non-white "westerners" 4) other, including subcontinental, Africans, other asians and South Americans. This last caste is subject to fairly severe prejudice at all levels. Not exactly the fierce racial hatred found in some parts of the US, but a sort of ingrained belief in the inherent "dirtiness" of these peoples. Many landlords will not rent to this last group and many are also hesitant to rent to "white" gaijin. Korean-Japanese and even a group of Japanese-Japnese called the Buraku or Burakumin have endured extreme predujice over the years. What Claude says about finding a job is also largely true, though the "boom days" of the 80's are long gone and the market is getting tougher. Still any reasonably sane native English speaker with a BA (in any subject) can find a job at a language school (or eventually start his own). You still occasionally see jobs announcements expressing a preference for "native speaker with blue eyes." Having visited dozens of middle schools and high schools as a teacher supervisor, what Claude says about the level of English teaching in Japnaese public school is also sadly very close to the mark. Still there are a fair number of as you say, Masatoshi, "losers and parasites." One American "ex-language school owner" I know is now serving 13 years for attempted robbery (he pulled a civil war era Navy Colt on a converience store clerk). I'd also agree regarding owning a car in Tokyo -- though it's much easier here in Shikoku. Still, I do have to pay nearly $1,200 in vehicle registration fees ("sha-ken"every two years but then you can often find a 10-year old car "for free" so I guess it balances out. All in all there seems to be a much greater ratio of "odd personalities" living overseas. I'm not sure if that's because living overseas makes us odd (eventually) or whether it just attracts an odder crowd to begin with. What's all this got to do with Leicas? Well, I'll tell you this much: language teachers in Mexico don't have the money or time for playing around with luxury cameras. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takaaki Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Oya-ji, Den-pun, Ga-byou Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nkag Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Claude, you okay? You're right - the joke's lost in translation and it's boring anyway. But, there's nothing as gratifying as the chance to teach everyone about Japan is there? Save it for the pics...:P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takaaki Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Yeah.. It just takes some time to appreciate the true art of 'oyaji gags'... They could be funny after many warm sakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nkag Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Sake...now you're talkin Takaaki. Don't know about the warm part tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abufletcher Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Typical middle east EFL job: http://www.eslcafe.com/joblist/index.cgi?read=9462 Typical Japan EFL job: http://www.eslcafe.com/joblist/index.cgi?read=9441 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marco_cuturi Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 A few comments: - Most americans in Japan feel they represent the entire western world, that their habits and opinions can be expressed as that of westerners as a group, and Claude's viewpoint shows that pretty well. that's very partial. My personal origins make me feel closer (in terms of tastes and communication) to japanese than to americans. - As for content, I think Claude's viewpoint does not have a value beyond what he has experienced. It's as if a guy from uzbekistan living in London was pretending to say something intelligent on the english society without speaking english, being able to read the newspapers or reading ads in the metro. If you cannot read kanji, you can hardly bring forward something clever about Japan. It can't even be described as gaijin's experience as a i said before, since this would be far too broad. - As for women... first it's more something of a myth unless you have very low standards. Odds are good but goods are odd is a very intelligent remark. women that are fond of gaijins are usually different, and most Gaijins that suddenly find themselves successful do not realize they are only meeting a certain kind of women. And those are not exactly the ones Tom Cruise would be hanging with. I definitely agree on Masatoshi's viewpoint: while a lot can be said about how Gaijins can have trouble adapting themselves here, and how Japanese society can reject them, this kind of "industry for professionnal gaijins" that he refers to clearly exists and is as bad as he says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claude_batmanghelidj Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Masatoshi, The truth is that if the Japanese education system functioned correctly Japanese kids would be fluent in Japanese, and what is more, because of that ability, Japan would not be in a recession. The Japanese are world beaters, everyone knows that, but because of the complete lack of English speaking capacity, which borders on the ridiculous for a wealthy developed country like Japan, you are falling behind. The Japanese education system, government and society all promote an obedience first way of thinking, a kind of neo-confucianism. This might be good for producing good group workers, who obey orders, but it snuffs initiative. You know, Masa's problem is that the truth is harsh to the ears. As a foreigner, I probably have a more accurate view of the strengths and weaknesses of Japan than he does. His whole bearing, as expressed in his tone of voice, is the epitome of the kind of attitude that holds Japan back. Conservative, arrogant, rude, I mean I don't know where to stop. A friend of mine who has lived here for years, said that Japan is Sheep being led by wolves. That pretty much sums it up for me. Listen, Masa, I had no intention of railing like this, but your whole bearing seems to epitomise the kind of extreme arrogance that I find very distasteful. You are the worst Japan has to offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nkag Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 "I mean I don't know where to stop" - it's easy, just shut up Claude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claude_batmanghelidj Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 I actually like a lot about Japan, but Masa's outburst kind of makes me mad. Who the hell is this guy anyway, hiding behind his computer and spilling bile on me? I mean Masa, post a damn picture before you decided to shoot your wad, idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claude_batmanghelidj Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Hey Kei, Masa, both of you all, any time, anywhere, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claude_batmanghelidj Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Don't even make me explain why Japanese women prefer non Japanese men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nkag Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 "Anytime, anywhere please" - Uh oh...drinking contest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takaaki Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 <i>Don't even make me explain why Japanese women prefer non Japanese men.</i><br><br>I'm rather curious... Why is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takaaki Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 OK. Wild guess. Perhaps because we are not as alcohol tolerant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nkag Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Sh*t...you called my bluff Takaaki. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claude_batmanghelidj Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Tak, Kei, and Masa, I have nothing more to say to any of you until you post some pics, and then I may dignify your ignorant blathering with a response, but until then, uh....forget it. Gaijin 1 Locals 0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nkag Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Hey Claude - you win. How about if I buy you a beer on the 19th? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claude_batmanghelidj Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 In all fairness, I must express my deepest gratitude to my Japanese hosts for allowing me to live and work in their country at this time. I have been treated very well while I have been here, and I have a lot of respect and appreciation for the Japanese. On another note, I feel very bad for the Japanese in having to host American bases. I wish for my sake and for the sake of the Japanese that this country was not still under American military occupation. It does not permit us to relate to each other as equals, and that is not healthy for either nation. The problem is that the government has no balls. If they did they would evict the Americans, and make their own foreign policy. This is not in America's interests however. It is in America's interest to keep Japan divided from China and Korea. The leaders of Japan that keep Japan subservient to America are traitors to their country. If I was Japanese, I would demand they step down for betraying their country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claude_batmanghelidj Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 This love/hate relationship with Japan is pretty common among us Gaijin (Japanese for "outsider"). Japan is riddled with flaws, but there is a beautiful and graceful aspect to the Japanese, that they seem intent on smothering in plastic and loud noises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abufletcher Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Claude, I had to point this out but the last photo I saw from you was on your yellow painted M4 (laying on an American flag towel). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now