Calling comments from Bessa R3a users.........!

[WM]

With reference to a thread about shutter noise from a thread 2

months ago

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00A2Fo

 

and a thread from today,

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Aqe6

 

there was a reference to re-ask the same question later on when

people have actually used the R3a.

 

So, here it is......."HOW'S THE R3A GOING ? AND CAN YOU MAKE SOME

COMMENTS IN PARTICULAR REFERENCE TO THE SHUTTER NOISE ON THE R3A VS.

SAY THE Leica M7, M6, or Contax G2, or a dSLR, or FOCUSING LONGER

LENSES ?"

 

This is mainly for the benefit of those who can't get their hands on

an R3a to check out, and need to buy online.

[monsoonphoto.net]

To my ears, it sounds like the R2.

[hing_kwong_ip]

I am very disappointed with R3A. I had sold it out and keeping the R2.

[derek_stanton2]

I was very interested in the R3a, and was prepared to buy one. But, when i toyed with it at

PhotoVillage a couple of weeks ago, i wasn't inspired to spend the $600 on it.

 

It is a better-looking camera than i had thought, from the web images. And, it is smaller,

as well, than the pictures make it seem. There's nothing on it that says "cheap." I had

hoped that the build quality had been increased from the R2, but if it has been, it's not a

significant jump. There's nothing wrong with the R3a, but at PhotoVillage, it sits next to a

case of used classic Ms, and near shelves of new M7s and MPs.... After handling the R3a,

and seeing the Leicas, i'm sure i wouldn't have been satisfied with the Bessa. If i hadn't a

basis for comparison, maybe i would have made a different decision. Instead, i decided to

buy an M7, even though the price is significantly higher.

 

Regarding the shutter noise.... I made sure to take note of this, having read so many posts

about it. I am not a person who really ever cared about this in the past. I was used to

motor-driven SLRs, and loud medium format cameras. But, i also had an M7 in the past,

and grew to appreciate the little "snik" sound it makes. I also played with an MP and an

M3, and was surprised to find easily discernable differences between them, even though

they're similar. When i tried the R3a, i was not happy with the sound of its shutter. It is

loud, relative to an M. It is not loud, in 'absolute' terms. The sound is metallic, and i

imagine it is very similar to the R2, although that comparison is from memory. I also had a

Contax G2 a few years ago. I think i would prefer the sound of the G2, even with the

whirring of the focus and motor drive. With the R3a, there is only the single sound, but it

is not an 'elegant' sound. A Canon DSLR is also more subtle, although i don't remember

which would be louder. I think the thing about the R3a's sound that is most 'bothersome'

to people is that it is not a precision sound. It doesn't sound dampened, or 'engineered' to

be what it is. It just is what it is.

 

I don't think it is in any way disturbing if one is working 'on the street,' or in most normal

environments. It's probably quieter than most early generation SLRs, but maybe not as

quiet as something like a Contax N1, which has a very smooth-sounding shutter and drive

system.

 

If this is very important to you, i have a feeling you won't like it. Especially if your basis for

comparison is a Leica. If you have to buy online, try to find a vendor with a return policy

that allows you to take delivery and then decide for yourself.

[terry_rory]

Hi Wee.

 

I have only had my R3a a little over a week and have only had a chance to get 1 roll through it before starting a week of night shifts so cannot speak with great authority.

 

The results were very pleasing (I bought a Summicron 50mm with it). The build seems very solid and it has a nice easy feel to it. The v/f is great but as many have pointed out, dont use a 40mm with it if you wear spectacles. I have no Leica M models with which to compare but the noise is somewhere between my Nikon D70 and my (very quiet) Leica CM P&S. If you have ever used a Contax 139q SLR then the noise level is similar only less so with the R3A due to lack of mirror slap.

 

I have done some rudimentary tests on r/f accuracy at 1, 2, 3 & 5 metres and infinity and all looks well and I cannot detect any vertical misalignment at all.

 

Here is an example shoot into complete dark shade where I was able to see well enough to focus on the guy's wristwatch (at f/2 using Portra 400 BW film) despite the gloomy conditions under his cover. I relied totally on the camera for metering and shot this on Auto (AE). It was a lot darker than this looks.....<div></div>

[terry_rory]

Wrong picture! Sorry......<div></div>

[terry_rory]

I guess if you already own Leica Ms then you should buy another M and not a R3A. Here in the UK the R3A is just over a fifth of the cost of Leica's RRP for the M7 so if a Leica owner is looking for a bargain Leica with comparable quality then I advise them to get a bargain Leica and not a Cosina!

 

I had no 'baggage' when I bought the R3a so it seems like a good camera to me. Pointless standing in a shop, or on this forum, poking it disdainfully and finding all the ways it is not a Leica! Hey, IT IS NOT A LEICA, it is 20 percent of the cost of Leica. (Sorry but the post author started with the capitals not me.) Some people spend more on Leica lenshoods and filters than this camera costs. Get some perspective.

 

As long as it is working exactly how it should then it will be fine. It will not have a totally silent shutter because Cosina/Voigtlander don't say they will give us one. Leica do. CV are not in the business of making strokable, butter smooth, silent, iconic masterpieces.

 

It is exactly as I expected a 399 UK pounds camera to be.

[andy_piper2]

Well, I'm actually using the R-D1, but it shares the viewfinder and shutter with the R3a.

 

RE: SOUND - a touch louder and more abrupt than an M6, a definite "Click" to the Leica's rubbery "clp". Most people (including Leica users) I've handed it to say "Hmm, nice and quiet." Basically there would be a very narrow range of ambient noise levels where you could hear the R-D1 and not hear a Leica. If it's dead quiet, both are noticeable. If there's stuff going on, both fade into the background noise pretty fast.

 

Not significantly different from what my Contax G2 or Hexar RF gave, minus the motor whines. Clearly less "clinky" than an original Bessa-L (the one with no viewfinder at all). Quieter than MOST DSLRs - although some of those are getting pretty quiet these days.

 

RE: FOCUS - I'm successfully focusing my 135mm f/4 (an effective 205mm with the cropping of the R-D1 sensor) most of the time at all subject distances right down to 1.5 meters. It does require that I make sure the RF images are EXACTLY aligned, rather than just apparently merged. 90 f/2 doesn't work as well. 90 f/2.8 success rate is in between. I.E. it generally does as well as my .72x M6 with these lenses, if I'm careful.

 

Framelines are as "approximate" as any RF. Much crisper than the Hexar RF's (which had a hand-painted look). A bit industrial looking compared to Leica's.

[jasper1]

It is exactly as I expected a 399 UK pounds camera to be

 

With a tinny sounding clunky shutter. You would have thought they would have improved it over the R2.

 

Trade it in get a Hexar RF live the dream.

[terry_rory]

The R3A shutter release works fine. It seems to do everything expected of it. It releases the shutter. It is not loud. It does not whisper or purr or send subliminal messages of well-being into the user's head! It releases the shutter.

 

Unlike all the master street photographers here I do not do secret photography in silent places (discrete is enough) and I have no need to get a wonderful thrill from the feel of the mechanism every time I use a camera. I am happy if I (or others!) get a thrill from the resultant photographs. That is the thing.

 

If secret and silent is your thing then your Leica is the wrong camera. Get a Hexar AF with 'stealth' mode.

[monsoonphoto.net]

Nice tones, Trevor.

[terry_rory]

"Live the dream"

 

??

[tom_burke3]

Surely the noise a shutter makes is a result of the shutter engineering? The Leica shutter is

a horizontal, slow-running, cloth shutter, mechanically-controlled (with electronic timing

assistance in the case of the M7). It's sound is a result of that engineering. The CV

cameras have very different shutters - vertically-mounted, high-speed, with metal blades.

I understand that while the R2 shutter was mechanically controlled, that shutter is no

longer available, and the one in the 'A' cameras is electronically controlled. It's that

engineering that makes the noise.

 

There are plus points with the CV shutters, esp. in the A cameras: they're capable of faster

operation and, as a result of electronic control, may be less likely to run slower over time.

This is a common issue with Leica cameras.

[jasper1]

Designed for years of reliable service over the widest possible range of operating conditions, the HEXAR RF has a solid copper-silumin aluminum die-cast body. In addition to film guide rails to ensure smooth film transport, the HEXAR RF employs myriad precision technologies and detailed components to ensure top-notch performance. The camera?s body is annealed at high temperature and steam pressure to remove all internal stress concentrations within the material, ensuring high rigidity. The body shell is covered with pure titanium, which is ideal because of its strength, light weight and resistance to impact and corrosion. This body also protects the ultra precise internal mechanisms against impact and corrosion. The titanium cover is coated with a baked-on semi-glossy black paint. As well as adding to the camera?s high-end appearance, this cover is extremely scratch-resistant. Such tasteful touches are certain to make the HEXAR RF a favorite and long-lasting tool that is pleasing to the touch. The HEXAR RF is designed to provide exactly this feeling, which is one reason for using materials that are rigorously selected for quality.

 

The camera uses a specially processed rubber grip for minimal slippage and to reinforce the sense of the camera as an extension of the photographer?s body.

 

Specially shaped curving rubber prevents slipping, and attention to ergonomics is evident in the shape of the camera?s grips and the ease with which it is held. The body shape and moderate weight make it a joy to use.

 

 

The HEXAR RF achieves speeds of up to 1/4000 second, through a focal-plane shutter with fast shutter response and superior durability.

 

The HEXAR RF uses a specially developed vertical focal-plane shutter. ?This design allows the camera to record rapid movements of up to 1/4000 second. Carbon and duralumin construction makes the shutter blades extremely thin, yet durable, enabling them to operate tens of thousands of times without any discernible chatter. Precision electronic control techniques drive the shutters, assuring even, rapid operation. Drawing upon Konica?s expertise as a film manufacturer, the lens shutter surface is coated with a specially developed photometric paint. This contributes substantially to photometric precision, which influences exposure settings. Furthermore, manual focus precludes the need for drivers for multiple autofocus lenses, substantially improving shutter response. A release time lag of effectively zero affords HEXAR RF users an even broader range of photo opportunities.

 

Brochure blurb but interesting. Minty examples with a very nice lens for the price of a R with a lens. "Live The Dream" as good or better built than a M and fully loaded.

 

Love the look of your pixs

[john15]

"decided to buy am M7 even though the price is significantly higher."

 

This give new meaning to the term, 'understatement'.

 

"it is not an elegant sound"

 

How do you define "elegant"?

[rich815]

Quieter than a G2, as said above more a metallic sound than a rubber sound of an M. From an R2 I heard the other day it is slightly quieter. I'm used to SLRs and my G2. I first got my RA3 and thought it very quiet. Then my M3 arrived a couple weeks later and the difference is huge. The M3 is almost silent. That said the RA3 is certainly not loud in absolute terms at all. But might be "offense" to one who infinitely treasures the sound of and is use to the quietness of M2/M3 cameras. Based on your comments in other threads and the fact that lots of people are repeating the same comments in your last thread and earlier threads you've seen you seem to be really intense about this sound issue of the RA3. Nothing wrong with that as it must be very important to you. Therefore I highly recommend you find a way to handle one and hear it yourself. Or accept the fact the the noise volume, while seemingly of the same "quality" and perhaps pitch of the R2, is slightly though barely quieter on the RA3. But it's not Leica M2/M3 sound by any means. I think that sums it up.

[jim_mcbride]

Kudos to you, Trevor, for applying common sense to your photography and to your use of

the R3A. I have finally learned to do the same and, in the process, have stopped being a

Leica snob, too. Since receiving my R3A last month, the awful weather in New England has

kept me indoors and I haven't had much chance to give it real a tryout. I have decided to

spend the rest of the winter in the Caribbean and Florida. I'm going to bring one camera

and two lenses: the R3A, a 40mm f2.0 Summicron-C, and a 90mm f4.0 (ancient) Elmar. I

already know I can make good pictures with those lenses and I know I can see the 40mm

and 90mm frames with a -2.0 diopter on the camera. When I come home in May, I expect

to be fairly familiar with the R3A's capabilities.

[michael s.]

If I can leave the sound stage for one moment, I think it's a good thing that the AE mode nailed the exposure in Trevor's second picture. Had I been there metering manually in camera, I'm confident (sadly) I'd have 2-out-of-3-times underexposed the chromogenic b & w film -- a no-no in my experience -- and gotten a muddy-looking photo. Good, sharp, shot too; I can read "England" upside down and backwards on the beam above the gentleman's head.

 

Keep in mind also (returning now to the "melody") that this partly outdoor shot of a man working with heavy, possibly loud machinery is perhaps the closest Trevor comes to "stealth photography."

 

The harbors, towns, countrysides, and semi-rural settings in which Trevor excels are unlikely to be disturbed by the click of a shutter.

 

I gather, Trevor, that your church interiors are generally not photographed during worship services, correct? -:)

[bill_marshall1]

This is one of the best threads I've read in terms of how well both facts & opinions are articulated. Kudos to all contributors!

 

Leica-M shutter = quieter, 1/1000 sec top speed. Bessa shutter = 1/2000 sec top speed. Hexar RF shutter = 1/4000 top speed. Everything's a compromise.

[derek_stanton2]

John:

"decided to buy an M7 even though the price is significantly higher."

This give new meaning to the term, 'understatement'.

 

I bought a used M7. It costs more than a new R3a. What word would you have preferred?

"Significant" seems appropriate to me. I think i expressed my reasoning clearly enough.

Even at one third the price, i would not have been happy with the Bessa. I have to make

some sacrifices to pay for the M7, whereas the R3a would have been easier to buy, but in

the long run, using the M would give me more satisfaction and confidence. To me, that

was worth the additional cost. I believe everyone who is aware of the existence of the

Bessas and chooses Leica instead is making a similar decision. So, why can't i make that

comment?

 

***

 

"it is not an elegant sound"

How do you define "elegant"?

 

Why is this necessary? You should be able to find my 'definition' within the context of

everything else i wrote. To be a bit more specific, i found the R3a's shutter sound to be

harsh, metallic, and a bit clunky. But, as i said, that's all relative. I'm certainly no

soundsnob, as i am quite used to a Pentax 67 and a Hasselblad, both of which make

vulgar "clop" sounds. Do i have to define "vulgar?"

[john15]

Nope. "click", "clack", "clap", and "clop" will do just fine as aural descriptives. Oops, forgot "snick".

[derek_stanton2]

I spell it "snik," but i've been known to take liberties with language.

[barefoot]

<i>Kudos to you, Trevor, for applying common sense to your photography and to your use of the R3A. I have finally learned to do the same and, in the process, have stopped being a Leica snob, too.</i>

<p>

Kudos to you, too, Jim.

[terry_rory]

This is all getting very onomatopoeic.

[Allen Herbert]

Kudos to you, Trevor, for applying common sense to your photography and to your use of the R3A. I have finally learned to do the same and, in the process, have stopped being a Leica snob, too.

 

Me to. Thanks Trevor.