eric friedemann Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 "Harley (Davidson) was even more of a laughingstock at their low point." People laughed at Harley because AMF had bought the company and was making crappy bikes that broke down a whole lot. "(T)hey used to say '(Harley Davidson) has declining market share and makes antiquated, overpriced products using largely overpaid workers.'" News Flash: Harley Davidson still makes antiquated, overpriced products. Harley's air-cooled bikes are like buying 1950s Edsels at 2004 Mercedes prices. However, in fairness to Harley, the company's bikes are now well-built 1950s bikes with great factory paint jobs. And, more to the point, through marketing, Harley has managed to convince accountants and dentists that if they spend $10K and up on a really loud motorcycle, they'll somehow be cool. It reminds me of the 1990 Dudley Moore movie "Crazy People," where an ad executive snaps and statrts an ad business pitching non-subliminal ad ideas: "Porsche- it's a little too small to get laid IN it, but you get laid the minute you get out of it!" ... or a Jaguar convertable: "Buy this car and women will give you hand jobs." "Perhaps if some of you bought new once in a while (Leica) wouldn't be in such bad shape." Perhaps if Leica's prices weren't so absurdly high, more people would buy new Leicas. Currently, a Nikon 50mm f/1.4 AIS lens retails gray in the U.S. for $280. A Leica 50mm f/1.4 Summilux R lens retails for $2,000 after rebate. Would anyone care to even try to justify the Leica lens retailing for more than seven times the price of the Nikkor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric friedemann Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 "Call it what you want, the rest of the world is shaking their heads while the American system collapses. Our system has failed." "What do you mean 'we,' Kemo Sabe?" Tonto, "The Lone Ranger." America has the best and safest doctors, hospitals and prescription drugs in the world. I have a superb healthcare plan, as do more than 70% of Americans. Those Americans that don?t have health insurance have get free healthcare via Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security Disability and hospitals that simply eat the cost of the treatment of indigent patients. "Do you honestly believe that our equipment and drugs are any different than that in the USA?" Canada caps the price of drugs (e.g. Socialism). Fortunately for Canada, the country?s drugs are purchased from American companies, with Americans funding research and development of the drugs. The day the U.S. government caps the prices of drugs is the day Canadians will pay more for their drugs -OR- the day American drug companies will scale back on research and development. "(Leica) to spead R&D, overhead and management, material and production costs over a relatively small number of units hence the higher prices. This is particularly so in the R line." What Research? Other than selling SLRs no one wants, Leica has been tweaking the same rangefinder products since Oskar Barnack. The 35mm Summicron M ASPH lens may be marginally better on balance than the pre-ASPH 35mm Summicron M, but unlike American drug companies, it isn?t as if Leica?s "innovations" are curing Cancer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin m. Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 If socialism has "victims," then what does un-regulated, crony-capitalism have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric friedemann Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 The highest per capita income of any industrialized nation. But anyone who doesn't like it in the U.S. is free to immigrate to Germany or Canada or France- no one's forcing you to stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricM Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 Uhm, thousands and thousands of "Americans" try to legally get into Canada, and elsewhere I imagine, every year. So in a sence, when no one wants you, you are forced to stay. Don't kid yourself, there are plenty that want and try to leave but can't. It might have something to do with highest murder rates, white collar espionage, property crimes, skin crimes, war, illiteracy, racism, environmental neglect blah blah blah. Or just plain old fearing your neighbour. You can keep it. "Everyone's the same" health care without prejudices from employers in regards to opportunities. Couldn't imagine passing a physical to get a crappy job because of a health insurance company. It's kind of cool paying $28 CND a month and knowing that no matter what happens, I could end up in a bed next to a millionaire getting the same care. Sick, dead, or alive, we're all the same. But not 'down there' you're not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricM Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 Well, I guess my above post makes no sence if Eric F's just got deleted...please trash mine too of course Josh/Tony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipling Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 I did Mr. Friedemann, and listening to your lunacy is making me think I made the right decision. <p> Stop reading your right wing journals and go out on the street and take a look at the inner cities. Please go to down town Cincinnati (or Los Angeles, or Philly, or Chicago) some night and tell the thousands in the projects how well off they are and that they actually aren't unemployed because you read something disputing it. I'm sure you'll make friends down there. Don't forget to take your Leica so you can get some snapshots of the beautiful housing they're living in and post them here on photo.net. And then come visit me in Germany and we'll go ANY place in this country and have a beer together, on any street corner in any city. The worse thing that will happen to us is, we might get drunk. <p> Or talked to by evil socialists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipling Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 Mr. Rosen, do you really think you have any idea what you're talking about? Germany becoming more socialist? You obviously have never read a single european newspaper in your entire life. The Unions in this country are weaker than ever. They just completely overhauled the welfare and unemployment system, cutting costs in the hundreds of millions and hitting the unemployed and low income families where it hurts most. <p>This country is not radically capitalist like America, no, but it certainly isn't moving closer to socialism. Your claim is as wrong as it can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samuel_dilworth Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 Eric, please go back to your sixty-hour week selling cameras. After all, you'll need the cash for the maximum permitted donation to Bush's campaign (you will keep that promise, won't you?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beau 1664876222 Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 "America has the best and safest doctors, hospitals and prescription drugs in the world. I have a superb healthcare plan." Look, I have a good plan too, but I'm trying to look beyond my shiny Wall St. skyscraper and all the priveleges that come with my good fortune. Apart from the fact that lots of Americans are extremely vulnerable, the cost explosion is not sustainable for the country as a whole. Businesses can't keep paying for these "superb" plans that cost 15% more every year. Already it is getting to be a huge barrier to entry for small businesses and self-employed people. At the current rate, the spiral of health-care costs will destroy the very thing that you are bragging about above: America's value-creating entrepreneurial energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy_skopar Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 People come to the U.S. from all over the world for our advanced medicine, and other countries get the benefit of our discoveries in medical technology and drugs. Our poor citizens can get free health care through many programs. Our solvent citizens can get health care by paying for most or some of it. I don't see why this is such a bad system. As for crime and elements of socialism ... I don't think you can compare a small, mostly homogenous country that has a culturally united population with a huge, wildly mixed country that constantly takes in poor and illegal immigrants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricM Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 Selling cameras? Huh? At any rate, what would employment and carrier choices have to do with ones opinions and facts? Insult me instead of offering an intelligent rebuttal? Whatever Dilworth... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominic_. Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 <i>Selling cameras? Huh? At any rate, what would employment and carrier choices have to do with ones opinions and facts? Insult me instead of offering an intelligent rebuttal? Whatever Dilworth...</i><br><br>Eric, I think he was talking about Eric F, not you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominic_. Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 <i>People come to the U.S. from all over the world for our advanced medicine, and other countries get the benefit of our discoveries in medical technology and drugs.</i><br><br>And Americans come to Canada because they cannot afford the drugs that the great American pharmaceutical companies develop. Also if other countries were to get the benefit of American medical technology and drugs the US would have to stop protecting the giant drug companies' patents and allow them (the drugs) to be produced by generic drug companies (see AIDS drugs for Africa). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom h. Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 "America has the best and safest doctors, hospitals and prescription drugs in the world. I have a superb healthcare plan, as do more than 70% of Americans. Those Americans that don?t have health insurance have get free healthcare via Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security Disability and hospitals that simply eat the cost of the treatment of indigent patients. "- this statement implies that really, employed or not, you (or any member of your family) will be ok medically speaking, if you get sick in the U.S..A.- this is simply and categorically not true. I've seen families and homes virtually wiped out with medical bills, and no-one gives a flyin' fornicatin'. Hope you never lose your job,Eric, although your stick-head-in-the-sand reflex appears to be working just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill_dewberry Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 What was the question ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliot_rosen1 Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 Typical liberal behavior (Higgins and others) to insult anyone who disagree with them rather than rebut their arguments. And then have the nerve to call conservatives mean-spirited. I have seen more hate speech come from the left than anywhere else these days. I guess it comes from being so absolutely sure you are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricM Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 cheers Dominic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom h. Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 Eliot, I can only assume you must be currently employed and enjoying health coverage and benefits for yourself and your family. However, unless you are independantly wealthy, I wouldn't plan on losing that job anytime soon- what you'd get for an M6TTL on ebay would barely pay for a child to stay in hospital in the U.S. for one night. On the bright side however, this seems to make the taste of sand palatable - you seem to be chunking it down just fine.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliot_rosen1 Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 Tom, I apologize, I should not have included you in my statement. I misread your comment, I thought it said "Hope you lose your job, Eric" when it actually said "Hope you never lose your job, Eric". One of the problems I have with this and other issues is that there is a cost to "free" healthcare for everyone. To do this you have to take money from people who earn it and give it to people who do not. That is OK up to a point, but we are already taxed at confiscatory rates in this country. The cost of "free" healthcare or anything else is freedom. Freedom to be able to keep a fraction of what you earn and spend it the way you like. I already pay more than 50% in taxes. Add it up Federal income, social security (that's a tax - I would not be in that system if I didn't have to be), state income, gasoline, alcohol, sales tax, tax for owning a car in the county I live, etc. etc. etc. I'm sick of people being so generous with my taxes. Want to reform healthcare? Fine, Do it without raising my taxes. You can start with Tort reform so malpractice insurance costs arn't so high. That would be a first step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricM Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 instead of effecting the taxes of average Joe Slave, i think it could be accomplished by effecting the billions that lawyers and insurance companies turn every year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominic_. Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 <i>instead of effecting the taxes of average Joe Slave, i think it could be accomplished by effecting the billions that lawyers and insurance companies turn every year</i><br><br>...or for that matter, the big oil and pharmaceutical companies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricM Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 What's it going to be like in 15 years when all the genes are held under patent laws by untouchable companies? Got testy cancer? Sorry, they own that gene. Want to cough up a huge amount of money to deal with it? The more bucks you have the quicker you can jump the line...reality coming soon to a theatre near you. How you gonna feel when your body is owned by a company? Within our life time, mine at least, they reckon everything is going to be owned by five companies. Everything, five multi national humugus unaccountable companies! wish i could go homestead... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob F. Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 So, after all that, which exchange is it on, & what is their symbol? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominic_. Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 <i>everything is going to be owned by five companies</i><br><br>Take your pick... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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