The Leica M8 loop

[jorge_saravia4]

Hi every one ( a bit long, and sorry for any english mistake).

 

I have been leica user for 10 years, had a M7, traded it for a new MP, have 4

lenses and a m6 ttl. I have read all about the mew M8, and as well as many of

you I have been playing with the idea of getting one, I may trade some of

other photo gear I have, but the question about if is it worth getting it hits

again and again, and takes me to an infinite loop. How to break the cycle ????

let`s try:

 

1- What does photography means for me ?

 

Photography is the art of seeing and being able to transform what I see in a

bidimensional image that show my internal sight. That involves a process which

begins the moment I open my eyes and goes to the moment the final print is

out, I say print, because for me the photo itself is an object of art.

 

For me photography is not matter of how many, and how fast, or how soon I see

the results, it is about being able of be there and see, is an act of present,

photography is in the mind just before it is in the film (or buffer).

 

For me the camera itself is part of the process, but I know the instrument

alone won`t make better photographer.

 

2- Will Leica M8 add value to the photography process ?

 

Based on what I read the M8 will not add to the process because the output

won`t be better that the one I get from my MP (or an M7), the fact that it is

digital won`t make me better in the process.

 

For the economic point of view, the M8 may save some money since there in not

film and development costs, but I will need the spent in hardware and software.

 

3- Will obsolecense be a factor to decide ?

 

For me no, I have seen photos taken with a Nikon 2HS (4 mp) far superior from

photos taken with a Canon 5D (12MP), I am not talking about resolution or

things like that, i talk about the image, the photo as an object that is able

to show me the way some one else saw a moment of reality. I think an M8 will

be able to take good photos for years, even if we have 39 MP full frame

(35mm) out there.

 

If I pay money for the M8 I will be paying for a service that the machine will

give me for some years, I won`t be paying only for the object.

 

4- If M8 will not add value, why am I thinking about getting one ?

 

I like technology, i like new things, I am affected for marketing, I like

Leica things, no logic here.

 

Will i buy it ??????? I haven`t had the opportunity to handle one M8, but when

i do that, if I feel the the M8 adds to my process by being better instrument

than my MP I will.

 

Thanks.

 

Jorge Saravia

[mark_amos]

I think you've said what your looking for, whether it is a satisfying conclusion or not. When you handle it, you will make a gut feel decision as to whether you think/feel it has the potential to add to your process. Even if you buy one, at first, you won't know the answer of whether it was worth it. You will only be able to formulate some general conclusions based on a subjective evaluation of the images and experiences you achieve with it after a long time. I guess that's just the way it is. As long as your financial affairs are in order, you can choose to do it without regrets or excuses and not try to justify it.

[mark_amos]

It is however worth while to put a lot of thought and research in the decision process, as you sound like you are doing, to help inform the gut feel of the final decision because then you will know what you based your decision on, and you may be content knowing it wasn't total impulsiness. I take a long time to buy anything over $50, but I seldom experience buyer's remorse. Take your time.

[Allen Herbert]

For me the camera itself is part of the process,

 

Yep, a pair of nice warm socks in the the winter helps. Be honest, cut the BS, you want a nice fondle tool.

 

Why beat around the bush.

[ishik_tuna]

you need to move beyond the "megapixel" reference point, and on to the notion of a "low noise" sensor with a "high dynamic range". Sensors will continue to progress, but the megapixel count will play less and less of a rol in determining th quality of the image or print you derive from your image. The current drawback to sensors are noise (essentially crappy image in low light), and either dark image areas that appear black, or light image areas that appear white (lack of dynamic range of the sensor). In the future, you will eventually see sensors that can capture images over a much wider range of lighting conditions, without loosing detail in either the shadows or the brightly illuminated areas, at higher ISO with less noise. Who wouldn't want a sensor that can capture images like Kodachrome 25, but at a potential ISO of 3200?

 

sensors in the future will produce images that you cannot even get with current sensors, that's inevitable...

 

i've actually read about some folks bracketing a shot withover/under/spot-on exposures, and then using software to merge the three images into one that has greater dynamic range (more detail in the light and dark areas). when the sensors improve, this won't be necessary.

 

try taking a digital picture in bright sunlight, and see what happens to the details in the shadows, or in the brightly lit areas...it's non-existent! this isn't a function of megapixels, but rather the depth of the pixels (bits), likewise, it sounds like the noise on the M8 sensor is going to make shooting at ISO greater that 650 undesirable. I can think of lots of conditions where shooting at a higher iso would be useful.

 

if you make the plunge into an M8, and if i had a lot of M lenses, i would be getting one, be prepared to upgrade in the next 5 years, because the sensor you get today, won't satisfy you in 5 years.

[larry_kincaid1]

Two years.

[fxdonny]

One thing why we (I) would consider buying digital, one that you did not mention, aside from megapixel and sensor size, is the fact that I like to be able to see my shot on computer, may be post it online, edit it myself, and print it. I have a film scanner which I also use, but the fact that I have to process and scan films are not fun (try that with a few rolls of film). I mean, if I want a high res scan, it would take forever, and time is not what we always have. This is probably why lots of pro photographers nowadays use digital. It's the workflow (time sensitive), not the quality or other reasons.

[g-man1]

The following advantage may be applicable to yourself: the M8 will allow you to change ISO on the fly, without having to change film.

[leon chang]

I'm with Ishik here. Dynamic Range is what you want and today's are just not as good as negative film there. Sure they have less grain but film is still superior in dynamic range. I believe indeed that we are now in a startup phase where digital manufacturer's develop better sensores every few years. Unless this stops and we reach the point of digital maturity, any investment in digital will become obsolete in a few years from now. I always believe that I can still obtain digital for the rest of my life. Why would I hurry and jump into a developing medium if I can take great pictures with my Leica MP and film? Digital will be here in 10 years from now, so I'll happily wait: prices will drop and technology will outclass what we have today. And that includes the M8.

[ishik_tuna]

I actually think you'll be unhappy with the sensor within a couple of weeks..no images for analysis, and several posts that ISO's greater than 650 are noisy..

 

the problem leica faces is that it does not control the sensor development...now it is invested in a panasonic sensor system (which i can attest to as absolutely atrocious in indoor situations and low light), a sensor for the Digital R from yet another company (?imacon), and a Kodak sensor in the M8) And now they have a piece of Sinar..yet another different sensor system in someone's future!.

 

oh well, i better shut up because digital in its current form is very frustrating to me. I'm taking ton's more pictures since i bought a Digilux 2, but the limitations of the camera are aggravating, and i while the M8 "appears" to be a better system..no way to know, since we don't have any images. Meanwhile, my kids have canon's which take some mighty fine images, at a fraction of the cost, and whenever something better comes along, upgrading isn't a decision that requires a second mortgage..

 

Leica created a digital M, built to last for decades...problem is building a digital camera to last decades isn't useful or a good business model.

[simon_rodgerson]

This might be a stupid idea, but would it be possible in the future that the sensor itself be designed to be 'unplugged' or replaced as new technology arrives, thereby reducing some financial loss of the camera, or would the loss be no less than simply trading up to the latest.

Simon.

[Rob F.]

Jorge: Have you done any digital photography? If so: do you like the digital process, compared to the process of shooting with film? If not: I don't think an M8 is the place to start. I got my feet wet with a Digilux 1. What I like about it: instant results without having to wait for processing; and the chance to re-do a bad picture.

 

What I don't like: Large photo files clogging my computer. Having to mess with storing photos on CD's, virtual hard drives, etc. Poor archival properties of digital storage. I can't shoot slides with digital. I don't like crop factors, were I to go with a digital that takes interchangeable lenses.

 

It seems to me that digital is mainly good (in my case) when I need a picture in a hurry. I think a digital P&S is handy for such things.

 

My second digital is a little Nikon Coolpix S5 that fits in my shirt pocket. Today's Minox, and Polaroid, all rolled into one! A Polanox (Minoid?).

 

When I don't need pictures in a hurry, or can carry a full-size camera rather than a shirt-pocket one, I shoot film.

 

I think my drive to photograph is rather similar to yours. I want to show how I feel about, and see, what is around me. I don't think I need an M8 to do that, as long as film is still around.

 

BTW, I don't know as digital saves a lot of money. That printer ink, in the small quantities you get in a cartridge, works out to around $5000 a gallon! OK, you don't have to buy film.

[Rob F.]

Simon: I think your idea would be a great anti-obsolescence incentive. Anti-obsolescence has always been a Leica policy: notice how almost all Leica lenses, no matter how old, can be used on a film M, a digital M, and in the case of the R lenses, a digital-back R8 or R9. It would be great to have this upgrade capability in the M8.

 

Maybe it is? I don't think they have said so. I wish my Digilux 1 could be upgraded to, say, 6 or 7 MP.

[simon_rodgerson]

Rob, the only trouble is Leica don't make the sensor, so what's in it for them. On the other hand, I'm more likely to buy the camera in the first place knowing about it's anti absolecense feature.