2 stop ND grad not enough??

[forrest_andrew]

i have recently added a HiTech 2 stop graduated neutral density soft

edge filter to my arsenal. in general i have been happy with the

results i have achieved using the filter. however, this past weekend

i tried for some early morning relfection shots in Banff NP and the

sunlit peaks were still overexposed relative to the foreground even

when using the filter. is this simly a case of a 2 stop filter not

holding back enough light for a proper exposure? do i need a 3 stop

filter? i see lots of photos posted on this site that have used 2

stop GNDs with better results. please see attached photo for

illustration of my problem. any and add comments/suggestions are

greatly appreciated.<div></div>

[enlightened-images]

Is this a hard transition filter, (abrupt change from 0 to 2 stop) or a soft transition - where the full effect is most noticable at the top of the filter?<br>

<br>

If soft transition, then likey the filter wasn't pulled down enough. If it is a hard transition filter, then I would say maybe it isn't a real full 2 stops. If you look at mountain reflection in the water, it is about 1/2 stop darker, that would lead me to believe the filter is about that same range too weak, i.e. 1 & 1/2 stop vs. full 2 stop.<br>

<br>

Hope that helps.

<br>

<br>

Gary Crabbe<br>

<a href="http://www.enlightphoto.com">Enlightened Images</a><br>

<br>

Banner Peak, Sierra, CA Fuji RVP50-135 w/ 2 stop SinghRay Hard Split GND Filter<br>

<br>

[forrest_andrew]

its a soft transition filter which i was hand holding to avoid vignetting. therefore, not having the filter low enough is a legitimate cause for problem. however, having had this problem on more than one of my shots and the fact that i was making a concious effort to maximize the effect makes me think otherwise. on that note, how would i go about testing my filter to see if it does in deed hold back 2 stops of light or not? also, i should have mentioned that the attached photo is a really terrible scan and is simply there to portray my problems. thanks again.

[chiranjeeb]

Easy way to check if it is 2 stop is to hold only the dark part in front of your lens and check if it indeed is holding back 2 stop. The effect of a grad ND is more noticeable when you use a small aperture (f11/f16). I assume the lens was appropriately stopped down.

Also did you meter the brightest and dark portions of the image to see what the exposure range actually was? Sometimes the scene requires moe than a 2 stop. I have always been happy with a 2 stop soft grad, but somewhere Galen Rowell mentions that he has stacked a 2 and 3 stop filter get a 5 stop filter for a particular picture! He recommends a 2 stop soft grad + a 3 stop hard grad, but YMMV.

[mark_millward]

I think the distant mountain is at the correct exposure relative to the reflected mountain, i.e. slightly lighter. Any darker and it would look unnatural. I think your problem here is the very dark foreground where no sunlight has hit. Exposing for this area has made both the reflected and real mountains slightly overexposed. I have suffered from this problem and the answer is either two ND grads, (one to balance the reflection and one to darken everything but the foreground) or find a different spot, or go at another time of year when the light that is striking the mountain is also striking the foreground.

[scott bacon]

Its certainly possible that the 2 stop GND was not enough to compensate for the lighting difference. But really, the best way to determine this is to meter the difference in the field using a spot meter (spot meter option built into your camera?). Take a reading using a spot on the mountain. Then take a reading using the same spot on the mountain in the reflection and see what the difference is - 2 stops? 3 stops?

 

The other "trick" to properly using a GND is the placement of the filter. It is almost impossible to hand-hold the filter in just the right location, unless you're much more coordinated than me. ;-) You need to stop down the lens (use depth of field preview on 35 mm cameras) to see exactly where the transition zone of the GND will fall in your composition. Slide the filter up and down in the holder to determine the best placement.

 

Hope this helps.

[joseph_smith3]

I would recommend a three stop over a two stop. In many landscape scenes requiring a GND, especially ones with bright skies and foregrounds in shade, you might find a 5 or 6 f stop difference in light across the image. The greater the range, the stronger the GND needs to be. If you have a spot meter, test the range of light across your typical image and figure out what GNDs you need to get. Joe smith

[daver1]

Having more than one ND filter is definitely beneficial. I carry 2 two-stop Hitechs and 1 one-stop. I can effectively get 1-5 stops of difference as the situation merits.

<p/>

-D

<p/>

<a href="http://www.coyoteimages.com">Coyote Images</a>

[rosswordhouse.com]

<p>Next time you are in this situation, take an incident reading

for your foreground

subject and then a spot reading for your sky. Then see what the

difference is

between your F stops. If it's greater than two stops then you're

two stop GND

won't hold back the light. If you still want the shot then take two

pictures.

</p>

<p>Because of the large treeline a soft GND would have worked

fine, you just needed

a stronger one.</p>

<p>Or you can burn and dodge your original in photoshop.Here's

what I did in about

5 minutes... </p>

<p><a href="http://www.rosswordhouse.com/"><img

src="http://www.rosswordhouse.com/images/logo_small_photo

net.gif" width="500" height="48" border="0"></a><br>

<a

href="http://www.rosswordhouse.com/gallery1.html">Gallery</a>

| <a

href="http://www.rosswordhouse.com/about_ross.html">About

Ross</a> | <a

href="http://www.rosswordhouse.com/contact.html">Contact</a>

</p><div></div>

[forrest_andrew]

thanks to all for the responses so far. i use a pentax MZ7 which sadly only has the ability to perform matrix metering and not spot metering - something i have found to be a big drawback. therefore, perhaps now i can justify the purchase of a new filter and further down the road of a camera with more perks.

learning all the time - thanks.

[mr._shy]

5 minutes are too much. :)

The Gradient tool can simulate the GND filter very well.

I can use that to get the same effect in seconds.

[rosswordhouse.com]

<p>Mr. Shy,<br>

Please look closer to the burn/dodge image. You will see that

this is not just

a simple gradient mask. Compare the tonality in the

background treeline and

the slightly brighter grass and rocks. I used the water reflection

as my perfect

tonality and burn/dodged everything else to fall in line with it.

You might

want to check your monitor calibration to see if you are within

ICC standards,

this will help you regarding your photo critiques.</p>

<p>Actually, Andrew did a great job taking this photo considering

the latitude

of F stops. It's an easy fix in pshop. But, it's always better to get

it right

in the camera. So I'd pick up a cheap spot meter and a one stop

GND. This way

you could spot the distant sky, let your camera take the average

reading, do

your math and then use a one, two or stack them for a three

GND.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.rosswordhouse.com/"><img

src="http://www.rosswordhouse.com/images/logo_small_photo

net.gif" width="500" height="48" border="0"></a><br>

<a

href="http://www.rosswordhouse.com/gallery1.html">Gallery</a>

| <a

href="http://www.rosswordhouse.com/about_ross.html">About

Ross</a> | <a

href="http://www.rosswordhouse.com/contact.html">Contact</a>

</p>

[jonathan_bundick]

Hand holding the filter can be a tough way to get things right with a grad. I know as I don't have a way to mount the thing on my 90mm for 4x5 and am too lazy to rig something up. So, I end up with quite a few shots with the transition where I didn't want it. This even after I apply a technique that is virtually fool proof when done with a filter holder.

 

First compose the shot with the camera on the tripod. Next, stop the lens down to your taking f/stop, and slide a business care, bit of cardboard, or anything that is handy and can block all light from entering the front of the lens until it darkens the section of the frame you want to filter witht the grad. Emerge from under the dark cloth, and note where you need to put the darkest part of your transition line. Switch to the filter, shoot. If hand holding, you can still be off a little, and a little is enough to destroy your shot, so bracketing exposure, and multiple frames are in order when hand holding grads.

 

Unfortunatly, from the shot you posted, I think the contrast range will be too much for the grad to deliver what you are looking for, even with a 3 stop. You may be forced to shoot two identical exposures to balance the lighting. Or you may be forced to accept some areas of the frame that are almost totally dark without any detail.