Looking for a Good Cold Weather Camera

[lkenney]

I do a fair amount of winter hiking and it can be as cold as -30. I

want to take along a camera that I can count on holding up in the

cold. This is especially true of overnight hikes. I currently use

an F-100. I want to be able to use all the lenses I already have. Of

course I recognize that I will not be able to use them other than in

manual mode.

 

I was considering an FM3A but realized that it has a

Electromagnetically controlled shutter. I would like a true

mechanical shutter. Or am I being overly cautious?

 

Any suggestions will be appreciated.

 

Thanks.

[david_h._hartman]

<em>"I was considering an FM3A but realized that it has a

Electromagnetically controlled shutter. I would like a true

mechanical shutter. Or am I being overly cautious?" --Leo

Kenney<br>

</em><br>

Not over cautious, you need to read the specs. The Nikon FM3a has

a hybrid shutter that will function on all shutter speeds from 1

second through 1/4,000th second without batteries installed. The

shutter is fully electronic in Aperture Preferred mode and fully

manual (non-electronic) in Manual Exposure Mode.

[david_h._hartman]

Maybe the spec sheet isnt as clear as it might be. Here

is a clip from the manual...<br>

<br>

When the battery power is completely exhausted or diminished in a

cold place, all the electronic displays are disabled, but major

mechanical systems, such as the shutter and aperture control,

remain functional, enabling you to continue shooting. --Nikon FM3a

Instruction Manual, Page 20

[Jerry_]

The Nikon F2 body, the FM, the FM2, the FM2n, and the FM3A will all go well in extreme cold temps. Without knowing all your lenses: the newer 'G' Nikkors will not work, if you have any.

[dmanthree]

Have you ever tried the F100 with lithium batteries? I've used mine down to -20F with no problems at all, even using AF. The lithiums are very light, so carrying an extra set isn't a big deal.

[ilkka_nissila]

I second the recommendation for lithium AA batteries. They last very long in the cold. I'd just use the F100 until you run into actual problems and then maybe consider another type of camera. Don't forget that you still need a light meter which works in these conditions. My guess is that the F100 with lithiums would run as well as any battery-dependent light meter. My Minolta autometer IV definitely freezes before any of my SLRs.

[photojim]

I don't think you're being too cautious.

 

I live in a cold climate (Saskatchewan). I've shot down to -30 C which is pretty nasty (and I'm not including wind chill; wind chill doesn't affect cameras. -10 with a -30 wind chill feels like -10 to your camera).

 

Although I too have an F100, I tend not to use it if it's extremely cold because battery life just gets shortened too much. Yes, I can carry spares, but I find it far more convenient just to use a mechanical camera like the ones listed earlier or the Nikkormat FT series. I own an FM2n and a Nikkormat FT3 and they get used.

 

If you'll be easily able to carry spare batteries or will be close to your vehicle, using your F100 is pretty viable. On the other hand, if you'll be away for extended periods of time and weather conditions are challenging, changing batteries can be extremely fun unless you have multiple battery trays. This is where using an FM2n is a lot easier.

 

Try both solutions for yourself and see what you prefer. You will probably find that you like both solutions and use both depending on the circumstances. An FM2n makes a great landscape camera but a poor wildlife one.

[david_h._hartman]

The FM3a is Nikons replacement for both the FE2 and the

FM2n. I prefer the diode metering system first found in the F2As

and later the FM, FM2 and FM2n for evening use. I prefer the

match needle and flag metering found in the Nikon EL2, FE, FE2

and now the FM3a for day use. The FE2 and FM3a offer standard TTL

flash while the others do not.<br>

<br>

If you load the FM3a with a DL1/3N lithium battery you should

have a functioning light meter in most any temperature condition

you are willing to brave and with or without the batteries you

will have a fully functional manual camera. The DL1/2N lithium

battery makes a good battery for the F2As and FM2n also.<br>

<br>

The best price Ive found for AA Lithium batteries in the US

is at Wal-Mart. The price is less than $17.00 for eight. Thats

about $17.00 for an F5 and $8.50 for an F100 (plus tax). As the

temperature drops battery life becomes shorter and the number of

rolls drops so a camera with full manual function without

batteries makes good economical sense. The FM3a makes an

excellent companion to the F100 and F5. Excepting G type lenses

these camera can share lenses freely.<br>

<br>

I hope this clears up some confusion that some post above may

cause. No one Nikon cameras does it all. They have their

strengths and weaknesses. A mix and match approach offers some

overlap and some unique features and strengthens your system. My

favorite "Odd Couple" would be the F5 and FM3a. I dont

own an FM3a as I already own FM2n(s) and FE2(s).<br>

<br>

---<br>

<br>

<em>I have had my FM3A for a day now, have wanted it badly since

it came out. It is my first grab with either the 17-35 2.8 or 85

1.4 on it.<br>

<br>

This camera has been designed and produced almost specifically

for the rough and remote photojournalist. The likes of Gordon

Wiltse, Galen Rowell and my friend Ace Kvale and myself have

practically requested this model for mountaineering and long term

expedition photography. It's a no-brainer for ultra long time

exposures too.<br>

<br>

The Nikon FM3A is a brilliant new camera, quite the security

blanket too.<br>

<br>

db<br>

<br>

--Daniel Bayer, August 3, 2002, PHOTO.NET<br>

</em><br>

---<br>

<br>

Regards,<br>

<br>

Dave Hartman.

[ilkka_nissila]

The battery price of AA lithiums is minimal compared to the film and processing cost, even in very cold weather. According to Nikon, that $8.50 gets you 50 rolls using AF in a temperature of -10 C. That's where it's still comfortable to photograph. At -30 C it becomes increasingly difficult to make many pictures as standing around a tripod for 30 min is usually to freeze any photographer. If you only have a CW meter and shoot slide film, you'll need to spend more time bracketing than if you just use the spot meter of the F100. I used to do this with my F3 HP and wouldn't want to go back. Needless to add, the poor metering scales of the manual cameras don't help. An F100 has a +-2 stop scale in 1/3 stop increments (actually you can read it to 1/6 stops but that doesn't help if you use the sub-command dial) which is perfect for setting the exposure for snow. A centerweighted meter just doesn't give the needed information for a controlled exposure in difficult conditions unless you move close to take selective readings.

 

How many pictures do you think you'll be taking in -30 C? I would imagine a few rolls per day would be max. So you can probably go through a whole winter with one set of Lithium AAs as do I. $8.50? That 50 rolls at -10 C costs about $250+processing and possibly prints. If you shoot cheap slide film, the price of the batteries amounts to a whopping 4% (I don't really know how much the tax is so I guessed) of the running costs of your winter adventure photography. If you shoot print film or have prints made, it's much less than that, probably only about 2% or less. Now, giving up the spot meter and metering scale, AF, HP viewfinder, etc. just to save a tiny little bit of money just doesn't make any sense. If you buy a manual camera for say $800, how many sets of lith AAs would that have gotten you? 80? That amounts to having enough battery power for 80*50 = 4000 rolls of film (or 144 000 exposures) in -10 C. Is that how many pictures you plan to make with the manual camera?

 

But by all means, if you feel that you want to buy it, go for it as it does increase Nikon's profits and hopefully they'll put that money into DSLR research. But I think it's fairly foolish to assume that it'll save you money or make your photography more secure. Those tiny liths in the F3HP have let me down quite often in the winter actually. I bet they won't take you through more than 10 rolls in that weather you're talking about.

[vic_.]

I used a Nikon FE many years ago in -20 degrees F weather. The camera performed perfectly, but the wind chill was so cold that the film crumbled in the camera. I should have kept the camera in my jacket instead of leaving it outside. IMO, any Nikon F body (FM2n, FM3a, F2, etc.) would do for such situations. In such weather conditions it's a bit masochistic to take pictures for extended periods.

[david_h._hartman]

<em>"But by all means, if you feel that you want to buy

it, go for it as it does increase Nikon's profits and hopefully

they'll put that money into DSLR research." --Ilkka Nissila<br>

</em><br>

Now youve gone ridiculous. No one said anything bad about

the F100. The FM3a offers different strengths and weaknesses.<br>

<br>

How many hours of time exposures can you get from a set of

lithium batteries in the F100? In the F5? Can you change the

finder on the F100 or FM3a? If you want to travel light at high

altitude do you want to carry an F4s, F5 or F3 with MD-4? When

you put a 6x finder on the F4s or F5 are you going to be

satisfied with their undelineated 4mm or 6mm area semi-spotmeters?

Nikon can call the semi-spotmeters in the F4s, F5 and F100

spotmeters but they are semi-spotmeters. They cant do what

a true 1 degree spotmeter can do until you are using 200mm, 300mm

or longer lens. How do you meter with a M screen in an F2As, F4s

or F5? What if you want TTL flash with your FM, FE, FM2n or F2As?

What about power advance and rewind with cold, brittle film? The

F100 has no rewind crank. What about static discharge in

extremely dry air? <br>

<br>

If you have an array of different tools available you can chose

the one that is best suited for a particular purpose. Anyone who

knows the Nikon system well should be able to doggedly argue that

one or another of Nikons cameras is the best but what is

the point? Chose the one that is best suited for the particular

photographic challenge at hand. If its extremely cold Id

chose an F2As, FM2n or FM3a and Id carry a hand held light

meter just in case. When you are miles from nowhere a camera with

full battery free function is a good friend. You dont have

to own one of each. An F100 and an FM3a or Nikkormat FT3 or F2As

would all make a fine system.<br>

<br>

<em>"Those tiny liths in the F3HP have let me down quite

often in the winter actually. I bet they won't take you through

more than 10 rolls in that weather you're talking about." --Ilkka

Nissila<br>

</em><br>

Why did you put them in the F3HP in the first place? If those DL1/3N

battery packed in because of extreme cold and the power drawn by

the F3HPs shutter you should have put them in an F2As,

Nikkormat FT3 or FM2n in the first place. If you could not afford

a second body you could have bought a DB-2 Anti-Cold Battery Pack.

It fits the F3 and all of the FM/FE family. With the Nikon system

you've only got a Zillion options!<br>

<br>

The only reason Id put a DL1/3N in an FM3a is for extremely

low temperature and only to power the meter. Doesnt anyone

understand the FM3a like the original Nikon F has full mechanical

function without batteries? The batteries in the FM3a are not an

issue. Thats the point: you dont need them.<br>

<br>

Regards,<br>

<br>

Dave Hartman.

[ilkka_nissila]

Yes, I understand the FM3A works without batteries but which hand-held light meter works down to -30 C? The LCD readout on my Minolta IV fades long before that and the manufacturer warns that the meter should not be used below -20 C as it may break. I assume other modern meters are similar in this respect. The F100 on the other hand has a LED display in the viewfinder (as far as I recall) and it works just fine in the cold.

 

If you have a hand-held meter which works in those conditions, please give a recommendation as it may be of value in the archives.

 

I think it is a matter of poor preparation if batteries in a modern camera fail. And an FM3A may be an item with religious value and it has its advantages but a mechanically timed shutter isn't IMHO enough compensation for the omissions in that camera. If you photograph a snow-peaked mountain with it, how will you check the brightness of the snow? There is no guarantee that you can take an incident reading which is sufficiently accurate (since you are most likely in different light). Taking out a (spot) hand-held meter, taking a reading, transferring it to the FM3A, and taking the exposure include many steps which are unnecessary given that the F100 would allow you to take the reading in seconds and the angle of view of the spot meter is appropriate for the focal length at hand.

The time spent fumbling around with accessories takes away from the time you can spend taking photographs. Believe me, at -30 C you want to be quick. Really quick. You can't use very thick gloves because you need to use the camera and meter controls and carrying e.g. a metal tripod (not all people can afford or are willing to pay for carbon fibre) make your hands freeze and a photographer with a hand-held meter and a manual camera isn't going to get as good results as he/she would have with an F100 in these conditions because of simply the extra effort necessary. I use my cameras in M mode, spot meter and manual focus when working in the cold.

 

I agree that the FM3A is a fine camera, very nice to operate in normal conditions. But imho it's not a camera for the winter. I respect the opinion of Daniel Bayer and others who use these cameras as backups but they grew up with them and learned to photograph with the limitations imposed by a centerweighted and/or incident meters. But basically I think these cameras are used for their sentimental value. I would never choose a camera without integral spot meter for winter photography.

[david_h._hartman]

<em>"The F100 on the other hand has a LED display in the

viewfinder (as far as I recall) and it works just fine in the

cold." --Ilkka Nissila<br>

</em><br>

No, both the "LCD Panel" and "Viewfinder Display"

are LCD(s), have a look. The one in the F5s viewfinder is

back on green where as the one in the F100s is green on

black but they are both back lit LCD(s).<br>

<br>

Anyone who travels far from civilization, even 10 miles (16

Kilometers) by foot or high clearance FWD trail, is well served

to have one battery free film camera on hand. The farther you go

the better an idea it becomes. If traveling by car or truck one

can easily recharge NiMH and Lithium-Ion batteries for a motor

drive or DSLR but a battery free backup makes damn good sense.

For cameras with small batteries like a pair of S-76(s) or for a

light meter <u>only</u> the DL1/3N, carrying spares is easy and

makes good sense. I have encountered dead S-76 batteries, new in

the blister pack. You have to test your spares and check the ones

in the camera from time to time. This is common knowledge.<br>

<br>

<em>"I respect the opinion of Daniel Bayer and others who

use these cameras as backups but they grew up with them and

learned to photograph with the limitations imposed by a

centerweighted and/or incident meters." --Ilkka Nissila<br>

</em><br>

Where do you see it said that these mountaineering and expedition

photographers use the Nikon FM3a as a backup. If Daniel Bayer

carries both his Canon EOS-1Ds and Nikon FM3a while

mountaineering more power to him, I rather doubt it.<br>

<br>

Meter a snow scene with a 60/40 center-weighed meter? Any fool

can do it. Sure a built in semi-spotmeter is better but true 1

degree spotmeter like the Pentax Digital Spotmeter that uses LED(s)

and a lithium PX28L battery is better still. When working on a

tripod a built in spotmeter is a pain to use. A hand held is

faster and more accurate.<br>

<br>

<em>"And an FM3A may be an item with religious value..."

--Ilkka Nissila<br>

</em><br>

Gees Louise! Are we disguising cameras or trading insults? This

is a cheap shot, meaningless reducible and a poor replacement for

logic; about as lame as it gets! I dont pray to my cameras

not even my F5. Its true that I asked the Lord for a

Mercedies-Benz but it looks Im still waiting.<br>

<br>

For cold brittle film, manual advance and rewind is only sensible.

The F100 when set to Cs advance mode is still shooting a 3 fps.

Maybe you get lucky and the batteries can only put out for 2.6

fps. There is no rewind knob on the F100. This alone should tell

you Nikon did not design this camera for extremely cold and dry

environments. With manual advance and rewind you can wind the

film as slow as necessary. If it still breaks at -30 F (-34 C)

maybe you should wait till its a little warmer like -10 F

(-23 C). I cant tell if Leo is referring to Fahrenheit to

Celsius but either way hes talking overnight hikes so the

camera will get thoroughly cold. Beside film breakage one can

easily encounter static discharge under these conditions.<br>

<br>

The Nikon cameras that are most suited for use in extreme cold

are the Nikon FM3a, FM2n, FM2, FM, F2As, FTn, Nikkormat FT3, FT2,

FTn or a plain Jane Nikon F with no meter. The order is newest to

oldest release (approx.). <br>

<br>

<em>"I agree that the FM3A is a fine camera, very nice to

operate in normal conditions. But imho it's not a camera for the

winter." --Ilkka Nissila<br>

</em><br>

Did you notice what Daniel Bayer and his buddies wanted this

camera for? To say the FM3a is not a camera for winter is absurd.<br>

<br>

Dave Hartman.<br>

<br>

Postscript: The basis of this kind of discussion is "Bleeding

Edge Techies" v. "The Luddites." If I owned a

Nikon F made in 1959, without a meter thank you, and a Nikon D2H

made just 30 days ago Id carry them both and Id share

lenses between them if that served my purpose. If both groups

think Im lunatic I dont much care.

[lkenney]

First off I want to thank everyone who contibuted to this question.

 

Next, my concern was not over the cost of batteries. I use Lithium batteries and I always carry spares. My primary concern revolves around being 10 to 20 miles from my car, freezing my butt off, having a great winter shot in front of me, and having my camera did. I would not be happy. If the price is carrying a second body to prevent this I would happily pay it.

 

In addition, two years ago I was trekking in Nepal when somehow the pentaprism got jostled and knocked out of alignment. I couldn't manually focus the camera and composing became much more difficult. I really wish I had brought a second body. While the cause of the difficulty is different, cold weather vs. damage, the outcome is the same - a less than optimally functioning/nonfunctioning camera.

 

I also think if I am going to carry a second body for film, I would be wise to carry a manual body. Also even with center weighting I feel I can still get a good pic - especially if I bracket in difficult exposure setting.

 

Again, Thanks for all the input.

 

Leo

[lkenney]

Oh yeah, none of my lenses are G lenses. Thanks.

[russ_butner___portland__or]

For about 25 years now, I've been using a Nikon FM with lithium batteries for mountain & rockclimbing in cold extremes. It has yet to fail me. Lithiums are great, carry a spare.

 

RB

[ilkka_nissila]

A built-in TTL spot meter has a narrower field of view when using a telephoto than a hand-held spot meter does. That's only one reason it is superior. The other is that the camera has a +-2 stop 1/3 stop metering scale which can be used to set the snow at +2 stops (or whatever) and no need to calculate anything or transfer info from your pentax spotmeter to the camera. How quickly can you do this in normal conditions? How about when you use two different types of film, add the time it takes to transfer the film speed to the meter. In -30.

 

I have only one (basically rhetorical) question to you, David: how often have you used your Pentax spotmeter in -30 C??? From the comments you write, I can make the educated guess that you have never seen -30 C (let alone felt it) except from an airplane window. So why don't you write about things that you have some experience with? To my knowledge, most Finnish pro nature photographers typically use an EOS-1 series camera in the winter, or similar. I know of no one in the field who uses a mechanical camera these days. And I happen to know why.

[david_h._hartman]

<em>"A built-in TTL spot meter has a narrower field of

view when using a telephoto than a hand-held spot meter does."

--Ilkka Nissila<br>

</em><br>

This is only true if you are using a 200mm or 300mm or longer

lens depending on the camera body and focus screen selected.

Conversely this is definitely not true if using a lens shorter

than 200mm. <br>

<br>

The F5 has a 4mm area semi-spotmeter when using the DP-30 and an

EC-B or EC-E focus screen otherwise its a 6mm area semi-spotmeter.

The F4s and F100 have a 4mm area semi-spotmeter with any focus

screen. Its very tempting to think the spotmeter's

sensitivity is delineated by the AF focus markings on the focus

screen but its larger. Please see the illustration below.<br>

<br>

<em>"have only one (basically rhetorical) question to you,

David: how often have you used your Pentax spotmeter in -30 C???"

--Ilkka Nissila<br>

</em><br>

-30 degrees Celsius? (-22 degrees Fahrenheit). Ill presume

hell has frozen over if I step out my front door and its -30

degrees Celsius.<br>

<br>

Ive owned four wheel drive vehicles since 1973, carried

four wheel chains, survival gear, food for several days, etc. I

have to go out of my way to find extremely cold weather but I use

to do that whenever possible. If I got stuck at 8,000 feet plus,

(2,440m plus) I could see very low temperatures. The best I can

do for you just now is put the Pentax Digital Spotmeter in the

deep freeze over night.<br>

<br>

The Pentax Digital Spotmeter runs on a modestly large lithium

battery (or silver oxide) and does not have LCD(s) but rather LED(s).

If the meter in an FM2n fails the Pentax Digital Spotmeter will

soon fail also.<br>

<br>

---<br>

<br>

OK, I remember this. I dont know what your obsession is but

saying a FM3a is not a good winter camera is absurd in the

extreme. Id recommend a Nikon FM3a if Leo was planing a

trip deep into the Australian outback in the dry season. I dont

care if he is near the equator at 1,000 feet below sea level in

the heat of summer a night, I'll still recommend a Nikon FM3a.

Any time anyone goes to a very remote area carrying at least one

battery free camera is an very good idea.<br>

<br>

Ilkka, it appears to me you are taking this very personally

whereas Im giving advice to LEO. I will correct

misinformation. I dont care if I convince you or not. When

he talked about -30 I was thinking Minnesota, Wyoming or

somewhere similar. Then I notice the word "Nepal." If

nothing else Nepal is remote so Ill still recommend a Nikon

FM3a. You are making basic mistakes about the features of the F100.

It has LED(s) and light piping to mark the selected AF point and

it uses an LED to back light the lightning ready light symbol.

Other than these the F100 uses liquid crystal displays.<br>

<br>

This is ancient history. Leo has by now bought or decided not to

buy the FM3a or another battery free Nikon. Shun says he has used

the F5 on a cruse to the Antarctic with no problems and I believe

him. I still recommend carrying one battery free camera.<br>

<br>

If this debate goes on any longer it will have to be called a

"Cold Flame War."<br>

<br>

Regards,<br>

<br>

Dave Hartman.<br>

<br>

Postscript: MERCY! --Roy Orbison<div></div>

[saikat.pathak]

David, consider taking multiple readings in such freezing conditions with the handheld spot meter. How long does it take to arrive at the chosen exposure for the scene using the Pentax Digital Spotmeter ?

 

Imagine the readings - EV = x1 for one subject, EV= x2 for another, EV= x3 for another, EV= x4 for another...and so on for the sunlit snow-mountain peak, the snow mountain peak in shade, the dark rocky surface, the fog below, the sky above, the evergreen in the foreground...I hope you get the picture. By the time I have taken all the readings, I have forgotten, what was the EV for sunlit snow peak vs the dark evergreen. Ok, once again.... I am not even talking about translating the values.

 

I used to use F80 (basically the same meter as F100 for atleast spotmetering purposes). Exactly the way Ilkka did - M mode, spotmeter, manual focus. I could easily see what the relative readings were for the various zones and judge quicky if everything shall get captured correctly based on the exposure latitude of the film, or whether a ND filter would help.

 

I guess it all boils down to practice, but, I presume, a camera with analog meter display in viewfinder, has its own convenience.

 

Do we really need 1 degree spotmeters ? I found that even while using moderate wides, the 4mm spotmeter circle is good enough to work with. Most importantly, the brain should be functioning :)

 

Chances of failure for battery reasons, well in multiple postings, the wisdom of carrying spares in inner jacket pocket has been mentioned. Just needs some planning.

 

In cold mountains, a handheld digital spot with a basic, battery independent manual body, is surely the most "reliable" set up. Is it the most convenient one ? I guess not. The cameras with in-built spotmeters are easier to use to judge the relative exposure values in a contrasty scene. Even on a tripod, if one uses a ball head, it's not a big deal anyway. Yes, for cameras as heavy as F5, I have to agree, it might be an issue. For F100, it should be ok. The mlu would be missed.

 

Hope the thread is still alive. Peace.