Use of native language again.

[john falkenstine]

Today I received a message from Photo.net stating that an image I

posted was interpreted as an ethnic/national slur and that it had

been deleted. It also stated that I could have lost my membership.

For the record I apologize. That was NOT the reason for the posting.

Instead it was an misplaced attempt to look for some more

interesting photography from a specific region in Europe that

doesn't see much variety these days and I'll leave it at that.

Slurring is NOT in my modus operandi. Please have a look at ALL of

my postings, and you will not see ethnic or racial slurs of any

kind. However, I do make observations that certain cultural

environments DO rub off on photography styles and I question that as

an issue. I don't want to see the same pictures over and over again

and was hoping for a bit of alternate input. But...the issue of

slurring and the manner in which it was enforced makes me realize

that slurring in other languages is something that I have

experienced as well. I let it pass, not realizing that photo.net

staff could react to it. This episode has changed my viewpoint on

allowing languages other than English on photo.net as I noted in the

previous string on this topic http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-

fetch-msg?msg_id=00AXX7. My viewpoint now is that English should be

it. Foreign postings must have a translation. If I get slurred or if

name calling starts, its going to abuse@photo.net pronto. End of

story. For those who have trouble with the English language, or

those who feel tolerance is needed, today's experience has changed

my mind. The same standards must be applied to ALL who post on

photo.net

[tony_spilatro]

Perhaps next time don't ask the world if Italians are lousey photographers, prove me wrong. Hats off to this site for having more class than you. If you don't care for a certain type of image that is your perogative but there is no excuse to interject ethnicity.

[knicki____]

I suppose if 'name calling' is occurring it shouldnt be allowed in any language. Perhaps if your post had been directed alittle differently it would have gone over better. I am glad you werent thrown out with the bathwater as I enjoy many if not all of your shots.

 

on a tongue and cheek note- Italians would be one set of people I wouldnt wanna mess with. But I think we can do a 'forgetta 'bout it'

 

Knicki Lucrezi

[john falkenstine]

It was miscontrued, and I never said what Tony said above, and was actually looking for exactly the opposite. The intent was a serious request, poorly worded to have some alternate photography FROM Italy, with a sense of humor, so others might be warned in advance NOT to ask for Vespa Photographs, because this can be construed as an ethnic slur... Right now I can easily find an immense number of copycat pictures and little else. Perhaps photo.net needs to inquire if some folks who can speak languages other than English might volunteer for some duty to go through the non-English postings once in a while to see what's really there.

[john falkenstine]

er..Misconstrued...

[lex_jenkins]

I've read many of John Falkenstine's posts and don't recall seeing any pattern of nonconstructive remarks, let alone racial, religious, cultural or other slurs.

 

Unfortunantely the thread is gone and it's moot. Those of us who didn't read it can speculate all we want. Those who did and responded to it may indeed have misconstrued remarks that John did not intend to be offensive.

 

I vividly recall instances as a kid in New York in which first generation immigrants who were clients and employees of my stepdad would jump to conclusions and take ear-smoking offense at American idiomatic expressions which they clearly misunderstood. Fortunately my stepdad was a skillful diplomat and managed to quickly smooth over ruffled feathers. But when I tagged along on his jobs (he was a producer/director of industrial, education and public service movies) I usually kept my mouth shut, never knowing whether a remark I made might be funny to one of his French clients and outrageously offensive to a Japanese cameraman.

 

So I doubt that simply mandating English as the official language of photo.net would solve the problem. These folks with whom my stepdad worked were fluent in formal English. But they lacked a grasp of American idiomatic expressions.

 

I was told by a former girlfriend, who was fluent enough in Spanish to work as a translator for international business, that when she visited Mexico she often found herself baffled by idiomatic expressions used in certain regions.

[vincetylor]

I read the image/thread in question before it was deleted. I personally did not see any real defamatory remarks in there either. However, a few words were written in such a way that others COULD HAVE interpreted it negatively. And, since quite a few obviously took it that way John, I can see why it was zapped. I agree with Knick..forget about it. Just a true misunderstanding. Happens all the time over here!

[WJT]

To convey one's thoughts without ambiguity when speaking to another is difficult to do. To do the same in writing is VERY difficult to do. John, it was a misunderstanding and now it's over. It would be better to just let it go and relax, take some great photographs, and have some fun here. Regards.

[keith_laban]

John, I saw your post yesterday and have to say I wasn't aware of any intended racial slur on your part. I got the impression your aim was to bring to our attention the predictability of the images being made of certain subjects rather than by certain nationalities. As such I'm not at all sure it was a necessary exercise, a visit to the TRP on almost any day will confirm your observation.

 

Misunderstandings occur even when communicating face to face, let alone on this weird and wonderful medium. Forget it, these things happen.

[jayme]

John- I was reminded yesterday, just how easily words can be misunderstood. I thought I understood what you were saying that's why I commented. I also am not racist in any way, shape or form. In fact, my family background (much like most Americans) is so culturally mixed if I did utter a slur I'd have to take it personally myself. LOL. I agree with just letting it go and marking it down as a lesson learned.

[almagnus]

You said "Instead it was an misplaced attempt to look for some more interesting photography from a specific region in Europe that doesn't see much variety these days and I'll leave it at that".

 

I took a look at your folder. Who are you to judge a person? Who are you to judge italians? Who are you to think PN represents the most creative people out there? and you say you don't post any ethnic or racial slurs of any kind... now, how can I believe that!

[gabriella_lucia]

Vincent, here is a quote from John's post yesterday. "Are Italians just plain lousey photographers"? Well if you don't see a problem with that then you have a problem. I don't know what your heritage is and I don't care but if John's kind words were directed at your nationality mabey your selective eyesight would seen this. Whether the post had mentiomed Italians,German,Polish or any other nationality there is no roon for that sort of rhetoric.

[amitai schwartz]

I always thought art and photography spoke a universal language. Something we can all understand. As for particular work, we either like it or not. But so what? Isn't the joy of all this the fact that if you don't like something you can ignore it and move on to something better. No one is forcing us to look at any of this. Since art and photography speak to universal likes and dislikes, it seems unfair and somewhat prejudicial to limit discourse to English.

[stevemarcus]

Whether intended or not, John's Falkenstine's post yesterday was disparaging towards Italian members of PN. John's comments were not "misconstrued", as has been asserted. I'm glad that Peter Marzano saved some (maybe all) of John's comments as evidence of this.

[gabriella_lucia]

John's disparaging comments were not made in the actual photo but in the description below the critique request. I think many may have missed this. There was certainly not a gray area here or room for misinterpretation.

[stevemarcus]

John, I think it's rather elitist to propose that only English should be permitted on photo.net. If you're interested in the content of a foreign language thread, you can use AltaVista Babel Fish (http://babelfish.altavista.com) or other freely available language translation sites to translate it. If you notice abuse in a foreign language thread, then report it to abuse@photo.net. I'm confident that abusive foreign language posts, if reported, will be dealt with as effectively as abusive English language posts.

[dan flanders]

We have met the paranoia and it is us! Does this mean that if someone wants to quote Goethe's "Heidenroeslein" it must be translated into English? Agreed that it appears that the EU will adopt English as the official language, but I doubt that it implies the it is to be enforcedin the same manner as metrication!

[david_henderson]

"I think it's rather elitist to propose that only English should be permitted on photo.net"

 

I don't care whether its elitist or not. The first requirement is that the vast majority of people using the site have the opportunity to understand all of whats being posted here, not to mention the moderators. That ability is far more important than an opinion driven by one's politics rather than the usefulness and functionality of the site.

 

Put this round the other way- I wouldn't expect an Italian newspaper to run quotes from English speakers in English or print letters/ articles in English because the were written by English speakers. I wouldn't expect a Russian film to use untranslated/unsubtitled English whenever someone playing the part of an American was speaking. If I wanted to participate in a discussion on a French web-site then I fully expect to do so in French and hope that those reading will forgive mylack of precision. The ability to communicate with the vast majority of the audience is always deemed paramount in these situations.

[vincetylor]

"Are Italians just plain lousey photographers"?

 

I read those words and laughed Peter. I considered what John was saying as tongue and cheek, trying to be funny, a lighter-side moment, so to speak... (for him anyway). Sort of like saying, Do all Irish people drink? Or to quote the title of a popular movie "White men can't jump". How about the Washington Redskins stink this year! Or what about a common expression "Italians make the best lovers". bet most people wouldn't mind that generalization.

 

To lay a claim of *rascist* on another human being, you better bring more to the table than this! A misunderstanding perhaps?? Sure I agree. A questionable choice of words used here?? Absolutely! But don't sit here telling us that you know for a fact this man is a rascist based on wet noodle evidence. It just doesn't fit!

 

I also agreed with the deletion of that image/thread because some COULD mis-interpret its true intention. And if you cared to read his words above here, he apologizes for the misunderstanding, and clarifies what he was trying actually to do. So tell me, is it posible that can we all move on, go back to taking some pics again, offering critiques, and chalk this one up to good-ole experience??

[stevemarcus]

<p><i>"I don't care whether [it's] elitist or not. The first requirement is that the vast majority of people using the site have the opportunity to understand all of whats being posted here, not to mention the moderators."</i><p>

 

<p>You don't have to be fluent in English to appreciate or, if you're inclined, to judge a photograph. I assume that the majority of foreign language posts are found in the gallery. I don't see a problem with that, given that it's so VERY easy to translate an entire web page, if one wishes to do so.<p>

[theokeijzers]

There was certainly not a gray area here or room for misinterpretation.

 

Peter, i read the comment yesterday and was a bit surprised by the tone. On the other side, if you had taken the time to look at John's comments on other's photography you could have see that in most of the cases, though sarcastic, he is also constructive. I read some humorous things in his words yesterday, nothing to get exited about. Maybe not everybody's cup of tea, but I think he was trying to trigger you.

The 'Italian's' remark was a joke, not a racist remark. At least, that's what I thought. I agree on that with Vincent.

 

So there is some space for reading these words, even when English is not my native language.

 

By the way, I liked your picture, as I love that specific region. I also like the Eifeltower. You should read John's comments on eifeltowers :)

[lex_jenkins]

Howzis for a slur: Do all photographers lack a sense of humor?

[gabriella_lucia]

Well Vincent what you think is funny may get you spot of trouble here in Chicago and many other places. That smile would disappear quickly. The bottom line is this site pulled the thread and kept the standards high. They sent a clear message that none of this classless rhetoric will be tolerated. I thank Brian, Jeremy and the rest of the PN staff for that. Thank You, I am finished with this issue. Good Day All.

[Landrum Kelly]

John and I have been addressing this language issue for some time now, as have others who have contributed their own points of view:

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00AXX7

 

Of course, one thing must be made clear: it is quite one thing to say that English is or ought to be the official language of the site (a point of view with which I happen to disagree, at least in part), and quite another to start bashing those who speak different languages.

 

And in so saying I ain't accusin' nobody of nothin'. . . .

[vincetylor]

Sorry Peter. I did not mean to offend or make light of the situation for those that were offended. Just felt his comments were mis-worded, rather than reflecting any type of *racist* attitude. Perhaps had he said "Can't anybody from Italy take some decent and original photographs"? Instead it was his asking if *Italians* (as an ethnic group) were lousy photographers... that got him into trouble. However, because a slight adjustment can truly change the tone here, I'd like to give him the benefit of doubt. As do most others.

 

You might even try it this way: "Are all people from Hawaii lousy photographers?" That would get somebody in less trouble than "Are all HAWAIIANS lousy photographers?" If it was indeed just a mistake (then one should recognize that mistake) and hopefully learn something as well. And we as fellow humans should not be so quick to assume the worst, realizing they put erasers on pencils for a reason! The whole thing was deleted, he has apologized, and hopefully you as well as anybody else involved realize it was a poorly worded comment rather than a reflection of his personal views regarding race. Have a good weekend.