Quality really improved?

[dave_nitsche]

No Spamming/Email Address Harvesting

 

From time to time, users post their email addresses in our chatrooms, forums, and other public posting areas, and the site makes available the email addresses of members to other logged-in members. You agree not to gather these email addresses for purposes of spamming or for any non-personal or commercial purposes.

 

Now does P.net consider spamming to be asking people to check out your latest photo and rate in a mass mailing? Not sure.

[vincetylor]

Using the Tsunami tragedy to garner attention/sympathy/ratings is a classless act at the very least in my mind. "E-mail spamming" to gain even more comments and rates is greedy at the very least. Offering false praise and flattering comments on average work with high ratings hoping for the same in return is a devious form of scheming at the very least. So then what do we have here?? A classless, greedy, scheming individual gaming the system so that he and his friends can enjoy top rated photographer status (for what little that is worth)and showcase their *Top-Rated* images for all to see how great they are.

 

Now, because these tactics have worked, others too are following right behind. The TRP is a joke. Those that run the site allowing this to continue are losing a great measure of respect in the eyes of many.

[vincetylor]

"Next day comes a mail from him... well u didn't have to mention an email to critque." Paul G.

 

Well well well, he sure did not want you sharing that piece of information with others on his image, did he?? Wonder why? He would prefer others not know this because he knows, that we know, it only exposes this persons quest to get to the top of the hill by whatever means necessary. Perhaps is also why he deleted and reposted his work after receieving lower than his usual over-inflated ratings. Or as Leo said in another movie..."I'm the King of the World!"

 

I can tell you this, what has become obvious to many now, was already rather well known to many before. In due time one's true heart motivations become obvious and well known. Sure didn't take long in his case.

[howard_foto]

the trend I observe is an overblowing balloon. so relax. just wait and marvel at its "progress" and varied nuances until the balloon pops. there's a cycle to these things, and a time for every purpose...

[andrewpgrant]

Honestly? There are still a handfull of really, really good photos being posted, but the number of really, really sh***y photos is 100-fold... and it seems that the owners of those really sh***y photos are the ones rating 3's most frequently through TRP. At least, I am noticing that sort of thing (and fewer people rating) is the case more than this time last year.

[lee park]

Just pick what you DON'T like and give them 5/5's. Have your buddies do the same thing. It doesn't look bad but brings the average down gradually....drip, drip, drip... It seems to me like the really smart ones have probably figured that out.

[paul e. wog]

Michele asks the question "Is quality of pictures on the site really improved?"..... only real answer would be to actually look at a picture.

 

A lot of this post is protesting "self promotion", but isn't that what the site is really all about? Getting exposure? Perhaps everybody just wants that done in a very subtle way, but not one person posts a pic here they don't want to be seen. We all just want a piece of the pie don't we?

 

....So i took all the words so far and threw them in a digitizer, fired that in a blender on liquify, poured onto Kodak paper in a darkroom...this image came out.

 

http://www.photo.net/photo/3077645

[zafar]

</p>

About the much talked about e-mail which is so miscontrucively being quoted here and Paul has

 

been accused and blamed for commenting in response to the e-mail. This was the <b>**ONLY** </b>

 

e-mail that I had ever sent as a request........ I am Pasting it here for all of us to read. Not

 

even a word less or more. It will stay here forever as nobody can edit it.....

<b><i>

</p>

Hope this note finds you in best of health. </p>

 

I have uploaded this symbolic picture as an appeal for prayer and help for Tsunami Victims.

 

Please find some time and write your input on this. I will highly appreciate your effort in this

 

regard. If you have additional information please write it in your comments. </p>

 

I have posted this symbolic photo as all of us are aware of the Tsunami disaster that Asia went

 

through recently. </p>

 

The damage is to that extent that it will take years for the organisations to restore the life in

 

the affected areas. We should all pray for those who were struck by this giant Tsunami and help

 

them in any way we can. </p>

 

There are many organizations currently working on this task. </p>

 

 

If we all do little I think we can put our share in this rebuilding process.

Kindest regards.</p></i></b></p>

 

 

 

You can see there is no mention of the ratings in this e-mail and for that matter not even a

 

critique too on my photo. It clearly states that I will appreciate if you take sometime and write

 

few words about the Tsunami victims and any information that you think is worth sharing... If you

 

are living in an area which is not effected by this tragedy then you should thank almighty for

 

being fortunate instead of blaming others for as doing <b>"classless act"</b> if they request

 

prayer and help for those in need.

</p>Paul was honest and kind enough not only he commented in what ever manner he thought it would

 

be best but also sent me and e-mail in reply to my e-mail request .....</p>

<b><i>

 

"Hayyy Zafar...don't be insulted ok...thats my honest opinion ......... Sure u want honesty or u

 

wouldn't ask in the first place."</i></b></p>

 

 

 

The second of my quote of not <b><i>mentionting e-mail request in the comments</i></b> was this

 

reason a am pasting below and not the "one" you so <b>**Graciously Presumed**</b>. </p>Here is

 

what was written which is being is misconstruced. Although these e-mails are personal but I am

 

sharing it with you just to clear the facts.</p>

 

Addressed to Paul and telling him not to change the comments as I did not feel insulted on his comments, asked him to just edit the e-mail reference as it would will look as same difference of opinions as it used to be in the past between us on many pictures.<b><i></p>"I asked you to edit your comment regarding my e-mail invitation

 

........The reason for this was not to provide the viewers another chance to smile at us. Just

 

consider this situation... A guy sends you a request in e-mail to "Please find some time to write

 

few lines for the tsunami victims on picture he just posted".... and you comment everything

 

except saying anything for the tsunami victims. I had appreciated much if you had wrote

 

</b>(should have been written here) <b>a comment on my picture for the Tsunami victims and pasted

 

few informative links."</i></b></p>

 

 

The reupload of the picture was after 10 minutes of uploading and that too on a member's request

 

as the message was not very clear which I posted in critique. You can not edit that in critque

 

request once you post it and I had to post the picture again. How many non inflated ratings I

 

would have got in that time which I did not have afterwards. </p>

 

If you can see I clearly have nothing to hide and you can see that. If you think someone requests

 

prayers for the people in need and asks your help is a <b><i>classless act</i></b> then I am

 

proud to be guilty. If something was bothering you to this extent as you have written in your

 

comments then I would have appreicated that you had written all this on <A

 

HREF="http://www.photo.net/photo/3069458"><B>"My Picture"</b></a> rather than

 

here in a corner.</p>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do photography just for fun ... (Kindly read

 

<A HREF="http://www.photo.net/photodb/user?user_id=1125274"><B>"My Profile</b></a>)

 

 

 

and as an outlet for my thoughts.

 

Vicent I am not a great photographer like you who has done a lot of work which I honestly respect

 

and admire as I had commented on your picture too... quite long ago. But today I am quite suprised by reading this thread as the tone of your comments

 

is not only sarcastivc but also insulting which I think is not healthy to anybody. A person as naturally gifted as you are is saying things like above is really something which I could not believe.</p> I am not sure what are you trying to prove from your comments.

 

here. </p>

 

<B>Stay well.</p>

 

Kind regards. </b>

[zafar]

Mark Lucas.

 

 

Thank you for your honest and constructive critique for the imrpovement. I highly appreciate. I have already stated that the

photo was not perfect as the focus of discussion was not the portrait but Affected people from Tsunami.

 

 

Kind regards.

[zafar]

John Falkenstein.

 

Thank you. You always have the time to do constructive criticism on my uploads and also rate my pictures. You were kind enough rating my last picture but unfortunately could not find time for writing few lines for those people. Sometimes time is hard to buy specially in a very busy schedule. Anyway thanks once again your comments are thoughtful and construcive.

 

Finally Michelle Berti.

 

 

Thank you for your input too. You are right regarding your comment and I edited the photo and uploaded it in my comments and kept the original too.

 

Thanks once again. I highly appreciate .

[paul e. wog]

Ha... Just wanted to say that i verify thats exactly what i recieved. True blah blah.

 

Ana Zafar...."Paul has been accused and blamed for commenting in response to the e-mail."

 

Nobody accused and blamed me here i believe. Wasn't on trial, just disclosed that to dispel any suspition or misconception is a better word really.....as mentioned...curious event and all worked out... so as the post slowly sinks into the Pacific.........

 

Peace.

[vincetylor]

Thank you for replying Zafar. As Mr Falkenstein and others effectively pointed out, a dissenting opinion ON one of your images brings persecution. I believe Mr. Falkenstein has had to block your attempts to contact him. So who really needs that?

 

Personally, I believe your actions are not sincere. This is just my opinion based on what I have witnessed first hand. Could I be wrong? Of course, but I don't think so. I think you have some good work, and some is even very good. However, in my opinion you have been gaming the Photo.net ratings system. I have seen some of your "Masterly Work" comments on very average images over and over again. I can suggest to you that those comments do not help anybody to really improve. They may really believe their average snapshot is now "Masterly". I have seen you hand out 7 after 7 after 7 for images that are only average to good. In fact all three hundred of your "Photos rated highest by this member" are al 7/7s....just since November!

 

I've seen the same thing happen with other members here as well as on Usefilm extensively a couple of years ago. By handing out high ratings so generously, and by offering the flattering remarks on very average work, you have been receiving the same in return from these new so called *friends* you have made. This is not new either. Mate-rating like this has been going on for a long time. Others do the same as you with the 7s and flattering remarks on average work. I will not post any of these examples here to prevent embarassment, but if you'd like, I will be happy to send samples to you privately.

 

I have not said a word about you on any of this since it is rather common. However, when I read Paul G's remark about answering YOUR e-mail request for a critique, and then reading your reply reprimanding him for actually mentioning that in a private e-mail, I basicallt felt you were just crossing the line. I also checked the TRP one night last week, saw your Tsunami image, it had a much lower rating than it does now, and poof it was deleted and then resubmitted. If it had higher ratings, I suggest you would NOT have resubmitted that work.

 

Now you tell me Zafar, a newer member hands out 7/7 excessively, offers an abundance of very generic comments mostly the "great work" "happy new year" variety, sends out private e-mails asking for people to visit his work, and then deletes and resubmits images after the ratings are very low. I am sorry, a spade is a spade, and I believe you are manipulating the system. Perhaps rather than being "quite surprised" at my remarks above, you should instead take a closer look at your own actions and intentions.

 

A few hours ago another popular newer photographer was deleted from the site altogether for gaming the system as well. He, by very dishonest means. I would just respectfully suggest you learn from his mistakes and subsequent consequences. Let your images stand or fall on the merits of the images themselves, and not on how many friends you have accumulated by generous ratings/comments, or how many people you personally invited by e-mail.

[mark lucas]

To clear up any confusion, it wasn't Mr Zafar who reacted sarcastically to critique of one of his photo's. I'm afraid I dared to offer an honest appraisal of one of the Spanish mafia's pictures.

[zafar]

Hi Vicent Tylor and Mark Lucas

 

First of all thank you Vicent for the generous compliment. Coming from a person of your caliber it really means a lot. I am glad you liked some of my pictures. Thanks for the sincere advice too. I highly appreciate. You will agree with me that there are so many pictures submitted everyday that it is hard to keep track and find what you like and then it may not be totally be to someone else's taste. I can tell you that my intentions are not bad. I regularly browse porfolios for children's pictures, lanscapes and photoshop work. I enjoy good photographs and if you look at the pictures I rated high you will see good photographs..... or atleast what I consider good (They all have something of my interest and taste, either the subject or the technical aspect). I agree with your comment on bias of ratings to some extent and there will be some bias in my ratings too as we all humans have this. For confirming this just pickup 100 random PN members and browse their highest rated photos and you will see some photographer's work appreciated just a shade more the others and this is cosistant. A fellow man who goes with you on photo shoots shares the same experience as you do will be appreciated more than somebody else's work whom you are not familiar with. I think it will be hard to eliminate this totally from the site or rather will be impossible. I had suggested once that like sports some percentage of the highest and lowest ratings from the photos should be discarded as both tend to have bias in them.

 

 

Just another clarification.... it was just one e-mail not e-mails posted above too and secondly if you were following my new year pictures....the happy new year was added on to the picture's title quite later as all the members greeted too in their comments. These two pictures were posted on new year.

 

 

Thanks Mark Lucas for clarification that ...... that was not my picture you offered your critique on.... much appreciated.

 

Thanks Vicent for taking time, as I have written earlier that I admire your work, now I admire your patience too and thanks for answering so patiently and politely to my comment.

 

 

Kind regards and may peace be for all.

[paul e. wog]

"Vincent I am not a great photographer"

 

Hay Zarar..with all respect i really must argue that point. Your an amature guy by self proclimation and well so am i...25 years worth. How long you been shooting i have no idea but you are a smashing sucsess at it. I can't even spell the word, never could. I suck cause i'm real lucky to hold page 3...you always on 1 so i think your highly underestimating your talent. You NEVER have a failure and every single time have a lock on page 1. Certainly you inspire awe in all of us. Your stunning collection of 7's rates recieved puts everyone i hold in such high esteem to shame....so i refer to you as "master of masters", in my mind.

 

Its nice to have you here, surrounded by so many sharing a common controversy. Guys like Vince, Mark, John all talented but by comparison they can't hold a candle to ya...me included.

 

We all seem to work within the system here...post our pics...get a few rates. Actually the vast majority of members on PN post a pic, put ip up in RFC...get maybe 8-12 hits and if Jupiter is aligned with Mars just about right, well it may luck out and end up in the top 10 PAGES of the TRP...there it sits, as so many do...neglected, forlorn...for 3 days and almost all end up with about 15 rates total.

 

Buy YOU...you can release a pic and within 1 hour you have about 10 7/7's on that pic and be in the top row of page 1 trp...its amazing.

 

Now i believe you stated in your epic up there that normally you do no "media" blitz campains or emailings with mate rating in mind...and i wouldn't think you would being such a person who would try and give so much to the world with your plea for prayer to the victims, you certainly wouldn't take advantage of your brothers here on PN...and we all are brothers here on PN aren't we Zafar?

 

Well i'm pretty mystified. I would guesstamate that 500 peeps a day are reading this post. Yesterday i posted the above link and although was a joke pic i was quite concerned about crys of "self promotion".... in 24 hours it has 5 rates...2 from people who were in my port anyway.

 

So how exactly is it, if you would please share...that you don't solicit rates by email...you don't put your pics up for RFC... that your pic gets more hits in couple of hours than the thousands of others on PN get in the lifetime of THEIR pics?

 

Peace.

[zafar]

<i>Well Paul my guess is as good as yours on this one. But one thing is for sure. You have a major share in all this. Since you started commenting on my pictures not only the comments went up to 10 kilometer on every picture I post afterwards but also the number of ratings. Just browse my pictures before your comments ... non had a 100 rate ... not even 90 and after that all pictures went over 100 rates. I know you will agree with me that people have enjoyed the **comments** more than the pictures and if I may say the comments only. After your comment on one of the picture it was almost impossible to browse on a dialup as you had to hire a cab to scroll down to contribute to critique. If I am not wrong one of the picture went well over 100 comments even after deletion of many. PN admin had to delete so many comments on most of the pictures which were rather too "hot" to be read in public.. lol. I usually browse pictures by comments rather than average as you can find the good and the bad pictures easily as both have too many comments. I think many people may be doing the same and they hit the much commented picture.

 

</p>

I know you know all this as I am on your list of interesting people too and you definitely check rate and comment anything that I post. How do you and Falks know??? simply because the list of interesting people is updated by date. If you see I have the maximum number of low rates too and my low rates they are consistent and from same raters my all 1/1s 2/2s and 3/3s are from same members as once a member was deleted the number of people rating me went down by one person but all my picture?s rate went high... means that member had rated all my pictures in the same low rates. How they know I have posted something. Do you assume I ask them to rate it low.... lol. I forgot another thing too. I hardly had any person who marked "me" as interesting. After that you, falks and all those who took part in those heated discussions on my pictures I think marked me as interesting or rather not me but the comments which were written on my pictures which we used to get carried away with a bit or I must say a lotttt... lol. The list now is around 90 when last time I checked and I have not rated or commented on most of them. About the timing of the hits on my picture I think you are a little exaggerating as my picture jumps to almost all pages in the start. May be it will come on first page when there are many rates. Now we don't but people like Faith Cohen who also was very fond of Vincent pictures and rated them very low...(you can see an interesting dialogue between the two on the lava picture of Vincent that I happen to rate and comment too. I think it had over 160 rates.).

</p>

 

These people used to rate all the pictures on TRP with 2s and 3s and down went the picture to page five or even down. If more people thought it was not worth this they would rate it and the picture again came up just like this "Tsunami picture". It went to page four or five too and then came up.

 

</p>

I have submitted most of my pictures to critique but the thing I am not comfortable with is any ratings high or low without comments. At one time I had also suggested that a three to five line comment in what ever language you want to.... should be compulsory to reach the dialogue... rate: and then someone could rate the pictures . Online translation is available in SYStran and many other websites if you want to know what is written. That is why I don?t submit for critique. Just post it and write a comment on it....... So Paul you have the maximum share in making me the "master of master" and may be my promotor too... lol. Lately John has also done the same. One thing that I used to do earlier was that I usually reacted to rude comments now I don't as you have noticed yourself. Its a free world and everyone has the right to say what he wants and I know who ever takes time to comment on your work is sincere with you. Why a person should spend half an hour looking and commenting on a picture which is not his.

 

</p>

Kind regards.</i>

 

[paul e. wog]

Well i suppose some things are just unexplainable Zafar. Take care.

 

Peace.

[zafar]

I suppose so too. Take care Paul.

 

Kind regards.

[vincetylor]

"Now we don't but people like Faith Cohen who also was very fond of Vincent pictures and rated them very low...(you can see an interesting dialogue between the two on the lava picture of Vincent that I happen to rate and comment too. I think it had over 160 rates.)" Zafar Rabani

 

Do you have other accounts Zafar? Because nobody with your name rated or commented on that image of mine. Perhaps just an oversight.

 

Faith Cohen was a bogus lowballer that lived to manipulate the system. In fact one of her other aliases is back again. However we will just watch and see what happens before getting this one axed...IF he can behave this time. The real Faith Cohen actually took some pretty decent pics, but had some obsession with the Top Photographers pages. An obsession with the different Top rated pages can happen to anybody, myself included. After all who doesn't want some type of recognition?? I refuse to rate or comment any longer on some of those that are obviously abusing the system just to get on top. Igor L is a very nice gentleman. I used to rate and comment frequently. Then I realized he does the same as discussed above, so have stopped altogether. Nowhere does this type of mate-rating, or meaningless type of "great shot" comment help other photographers to improve one iota. What is does help however, is the one handing the inflated ratings to receive likewise in return. This is why the Top rated photographers pages as well as the default three day top rated pages are often so skewed. Any of us could quite frankly do the same right now. Go through all of the newly posted images and say something like "great shot" "excellent image" "Masterly work" place as many high ratings as allowed, post an image and you will be guaranteed that a reasonable proportion of these people you rated high will respond likewise on our new image. Therefore shooting the image up to the top or the TRP, and in due time the photographer up to the top of the Top Photographers pages as well.

 

The real question however, did they get there because of having quality images, or because of the mate-rating and flattery? I believe we all know the answer to that.

 

In the end, rating honestly and offering honest critiques (positive and negative) is the only way anybody can seriously hope to improve. THAT is far more important than where we rank on some photo website.

[root]

" . . . . you always on 1 so i think your highly underestimating your talent. You NEVER have a failure and every single time have a lock on page 1. Certainly you inspire awe in all of us. Your stunning collection of 7's rates recieved puts everyone i hold in such high esteem to shame....so i refer to you as "master of masters", in my mind."

 

Paul, you can't be serious. The images in questions are OK, but are on page one because the positions were purchased with a barrage of daily sevens.

 

Don't you get it???

[b_b21]

Mr Lukas wrote:

 

"To clear up any confusion, it wasn't Mr Zafar who reacted sarcastically to critique of one of his photo's. I'm afraid I dared to offer an honest appraisal of one of the Spanish mafia's pictures."

 

On http://www.photo.net/photo/2712931

 

Mr Lukas worte:

 

"All credit to the graffiti artist but unfortunately none to the photographer.

 

How can you sycophants justify such high ratings?

 

Calling it "original"? Please... "

 

Luisa Obrador wrote a few postings below:

 

"... Es cierto que Mark tiene razon en que todo el merito es del dibujante, pero el caso es que a mi me gustan los grafittis con mucho colorido, (en mi portafolios hay 8 o 10) y por lo que se ve a la gente tambien les gusta. No creo que por esta razon haya que menospreciar a los que me dan buena puntuacion, por otro lado y ya no soy modesta, en todas las grandes ciudades hay grafitti, pero hay que encontrarlos, seleccionarlos y fotografiarlos bien. ..."

 

Which translated should read:

"... Mark is right where the whole merit is of the man who draw the graffiti, the fact is that I like colorful grafitties (in my portfolio there are 8 or 10) for what it seems people also like them. I don't think for this reason we have to underestimate those who give me good ratings, on the other side, I'm not modest any more. In every big city there ir grafitti, buy you have to find them, screen them and take a good fotograph of them. ..."

 

With the above comentaries cut and pasted, you can find for yourself, that the Spanish Mafia you mention whom you are afraid of posting a sincere appraisal, is sensitive to your comments and apreciates them. I think which by no means is acceptable is your way of posting them. This is nothing but an example of how sometimes we can have a good opinion and the wording used can be responsable for a bad response of our audience. (Remember, we are here to learn and teach.)

 

As for the rating system and the TRP I find them now less useful than at the time I found Photo.net, I think the systems lack an objectivity that every person has to give it. I mean that the same picture by John Peri and by someone else will have different trafic and therefore different ratings.

 

I find more useful the well though comments of people like John Crosley, Salvatore Mele, Lee Park and some others, than the usual well done, crop this and that. There is also a guy whose screen name is .[. Z which usually gives comments which are well though. Not the most liked person on the site, but I'm sure one whose apraisal of photos is well centered on reality and posibilities of each one he rates and comments ( a little sarcastic some times).

 

I think a way of improving the site would be a way to "rate" comments as it is also an important part of the learning process which I think Philip Greenspun originaly made this site for.

 

Hope this gives an idea to improve an overall great site.

 

Have a nice Evenning everyone. B. B.

[chubbs]

people desreve A++ for beating this subject to the deaths.

[howard_foto]

Alexander - A++men to that.

[paul e. wog]

I can't believe you wrote that. Is this a "trap"?

 

Its all true Carl. Top photographers he's what #2?.... The system put him there. Theres NOTHING wrong with the ratings system. None of our complaints are considered valid enough to effect any design changes. So by default the system designers deem it to be effective.

 

He, he , he, by self admission right in this post.. "i am not a very good photographer"... So the #2 photographer on the worlds top site is a bad photographer by self admission and the site has recognized this to be a new trend in the art world.

 

I intend to be the #1 bad art producer on this site. Not an easy task. Had changed my whole attitude lately to try see only the good in photos..and people for that matter...i was wrong.

 

Pics must be studied carefully and negetive critques savoured, although rare in this day and age.... Throw out everything ever concieved to be right..rule of thirds...blah!!!.... stupid concepts of "lines" having anything to do with composition.... exposure is a big thing... i see a pic right now of a highly underexposed sunset fast approaching page 1.... contrast about over +40 to give it a nice clumpped up effect that burns the eyeballs.... read comments... all the people pouring 7/7 on this pic are the top photographers of PN... they are applying there name to this and their reputation...they are saying THIS IS GREAT go read it if u don't believe me.

 

I just got back from commenting and rating Mr. Camerons new one on page 4 or so and tried to help him too.

 

I wanna go right in and say all this on comment. Prob is the community will turn against me and i don't need that. Nobodys payin me a dime to shoot myself in foot and security has seemed to vacated my 300 pic port, i have no protection against retrobution......i cannot afford it.

 

Therfore Carl, throw out that purist attitude as i will. And the F5 get a disposible. The cream of PN supports "bad art" so you and i are archaic, old school thinking photographers and we better unlearn all we know and fast, or we will be doomed to obscurity even moreso as every day goes by.

 

Understand now Carl?

[paul e. wog]

Is somebody forcing you to read it?