chubbs Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 I have not bennefited form high ratings becaue my jenious is undescoverd and unappreciated but one day I will rise like the phenix in Harry potter and be the pOW. I hope so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertdarmali Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 Agree with Vincent, but apart from mate-ratings, there are other kind of ratings as well, such as popularity-rating and equipment rating. Often you see a guy with a nice portfolio, and when he posted a so-so work, he would still get the high ratings. Or when someone is using high-end cameras, producing average result, still manage to get high ratings. It's just sad, but to be honest, I'm not really concerned with that. I'm more annoyed with jealous-rating or some other trigger-happy low raters... (the ones without constructive feedback) Albert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul e. wog Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 Vincent do you really believe, given the politics and the self admitted view of corruption taking place, that most images on page #1 are "the top of the hill" anyway? Even in a system of absolute perfection of complete honesty if you don't personaly like that #1 image the question still arises "why is that there?". It all comes down to personal preferences. This blind pouring of 7/7 doesn't always imply dishonesty. Quite often its a geo-political thing. In our location we tend to view the world as "one place" and never consider a higher rate cause the persons "American". The nature of the WWW tends to tear down borders and cultural differences and does that in an evolutionary manner... So it began here and our longer exposure times to the technology make us overlook the fact that some countries barely have stable power grids, yet now have internet technology. Like the movie "the Gods must be crazy"..instead of the coke bottle the wireless pc falls from the sky, complete with ps installed. This expanded universe suddenly appears they had no idea existed. All the things they see become weighed against their own enviroment and no doubt some locations feel ripped off and inferior. They want acceptance most of all and equality...so it becomes a rah rah rah thing of national pride at first. Their fusion into the world as a whole causing earthquakes isn't just at this IP address either. Theres probably no formula or rules could be created to overcome the impact. Just time and expanding of the knowledge that borders are only icons and property lines. The web has no boundries and each day and each interaction work to equalize this imbalance. I don't believe there is some evil conspirosy mainly bcause theres nothing to win here. In reality Vincent the top spot can be viewed as either "the most beautiful image" or "the most popular". To me its the hit parade.... but the true greats of music very rarely show up on the top 40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincetylor Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 Paul, when you go to the TRP, and then look at images with the highest *NUMBER of comments* you will then most likely get a look at the "most popular" photographs/photographers. Again, no problems from me, even if I disagree with that type of photograph/photographer. When you RATE an image however, the rating itself should be an honest rating, based on an honest evaluation of that single image. This is very clearly not the case when people rate the same photographers images 7/7 over and over and over. Now, also ask yourself WHY a photographer has become so "popular" especially as is the case recently, in such a short period of time?? Is it really because his or her images are consistently that much better than those of other more experienced, well known photographers? Or is it because these new "popular" photographers are handing out 7 after 7, while also offering false flattering praise on other peoples work, and then receiving likewise in return. An honest evaluation of these questions/issues have made it clear in my mind what's really going on. If one photographer after another can get to the top of the pages over and over BECAUSE of these dishonest mate-rating tactics, as has been proven by many lately, then obviously something is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howard_foto Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 <p>"<I>...theres nothing to win here.</I>" <p>and for the reasons you cite there's nothing to prove here. <p>"<I>...the true greats of music very rarely show up on the top 40.</I>" <p>ditto the true greats of photography, they very rarely show up here, too. <p>and having just glanced at the TRP for the first time in several days I can tell you that the quality of that top page has declined markedly in that short period. that said, just to be fair I vow not to comment/critique any of those there at the moment. and frankly I would be embarrassed to have an image on that page sharing space with that sorry company... mind you, not that I have any images worth sharing space with the best of company! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john falkenstine Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 -I expected the link to be deleted, because it was the truth...The discussions are pointless. Join the smelly masses on the worn city bus that now is photo.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chubbs Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 howard I am glad to read your coment becaues I dont have any picture sin the top page so I must be one of the greats. PWO here I come! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul e. wog Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 Above i pointed out my viewpoint. Just feel that who's who on page #1 has very little to do with MY life on PN. Your life may hold different priorities, i dunno. PN isn't asking US to run the show.. so if it's broke THEY will fix it. If it falls into the sea then let it be...(zepplin) You guys have some good pics/venues... so why let some injustice you feel get in the way, thats all i meant. If page one doesn't appeal..try page 2 or back farther back till u get what your looking for. (my stuff page 3) haha Depends what your looking for. Myself some people comment and really mean it, not just a stab at getting some favoritism...well thats the big payoff for me. I'm not a pro and have nothing to win here so whats having the #1 pic gonna do? Cost me another 4 hours everyday answering comments and disagreements?.... Some people wanna fill page 1 with media/political productions well click to page 2 where the "honest" art lies, if thats your opinion, is my suggestion.....You got massive attention, rates, comments on some pics Vincent so exposure shouldn't be an issue should it?...whats the obsession with the integrity of page 1??? I can relate to crusades and if thats your thing i suggest instead of trying to convince there IS a problem and expecting a solution to an obviously immpossible problem....do something positive to fix it. Mate rating circles are allowed to flourish in your view.. so it should be no problem for you to form your own Mate Busters. Find the toughest most objective guys u can with the most honest values.... get some illustrious credo goin...take an oath of allegence...take em out to the mean streets of the trp and do a cleanup... throw honesty upon them....right all wrongs. Pretty soon people with be posting here that mate busters is too harsh or this or that...mate busters are mate rating each other. How u gonna rate your mate busters buds? PN must have figured out by now if there is a prob, and they either want it that way or gonna fix it or could care less...so why should we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincetylor Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 Dear Paul, perhaps the ones really obsessed with the top page of the TRP, are the ones that privately e-mail others for ratings/critiques, hand out false praise in great abundance, high ratings in abundance, and then delete images only to repost again because the ratings were not high enough. Looks to me like YOU have been sucked into this type of manipulation by a few others... I simply replied to Michele's original question above. The system is what it is, which is getting worse. Just because Photo.net allows it, does not mean it is not a problem. They also denied just a few weeks ago that these lowballing, revenge rating phony accounts even existed. A few days later, one percent of all ratings were deleted along with every single lowballing member listed by name. Sometimes you have to be in the pits so to speak, to really understand what's going on. Mate-rating, has always been an issue Paul, even you have spoken out in the past about it...I am sure you know what I mean. Just now in 2005, in my opinion it is worse than I have ever seen it. So what, I still think this site has a tremendous amount of value. Just the gallery, namely the first few pages in the TRP, are quite skewed because of those gaming the system by handing out inflated ratings and false praise over and over and over. Limiting the number of 7s to eight in one day was implemented for this very reason which was a good start. But obviously to really work on this issue as a whole, something further needs to be done, cause it sure aint fixed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul e. wog Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 "something further needs to be done, cause it sure aint fixed!" OK..everything i've said here doesn't disagree with you at all, in fact i agree 110%. Point i'm trying to get across is does it really matter. Is Brian coming on here in a panic asking for a solution? Theres still some very pretty pics on page 1. Almost all....How does it concern you if you aren't posting anything lately? You still haven't explained why its so important that page 1 live up to your ideal. People have 3-7/7 to blow a day. If they wanna waste that on garbage art they have that right. If page 1 is full of garbage art...ok... the members voted it that way...and so? You want them arrested for having bad taste? In the real world its quite normal for people to lie,cheat,steal be greedy and self serving. Everybody on here is a real person too. So if u have some solution that is gonna change human nature well offer it up... we can apply it to real life too and live in Nirvana. "Looks to me like YOU have been sucked into this type of manipulation by a few others... " How you arrive at this judgement i dunno..i'm not exactly a pawn Vincent. Since my jail term i have a new outlook. I'm singin "we are the world" and only saying good things and never bad. Most say they want objectivity but really don't. Don't worry yourself, i would never call an ugly pic good for the sake of reciprocal ratings... my stuff stands on its own and thats the paycheck. Your paycheck may be different Vincent. You are a pro. You have a vested interest in getting exposure for an offshoot to your biz. Don't get me wrong here...not saying it IS your concern... but an amature guy like me could very well say that YOU are using this system as a means to your own ends through manipulation....get those cheaters off page 1 they are mate rating...so i can take my proper place. But are they really mate rating?? I see it as national pride as explained above. If you contest that then go into those images and prove they are substandard. Convince, Vince, all those 30 that gave 7/7 they made a big mistake and they will change their rates. Its possible to do that and you have every right to comment. "Just because Photo.net allows it, does not mean it is not a problem" So is it up to us to fix that problem? Is this a democracy or does one person call the shots? They ask for "input conserning the site".. ok heres our input...Vince and i concur mate rating is taking place.... hello??...Vince did u hear a voice come and ask for our solution to it? Is it possible that you and i and everyone else in a fluster are mearly entertainment over morning coffee? And when things get really outta hand its just a matter of change a few code variables and its solved?...i dunno. You might not have factored in what Brian said in that other post about increased traffic since digits blah blah...we have a 2 lane highway with 3 times the traffic. Competition is fierce and images bounce all over page 1-3. Its much harder to stabalize a position. So i have a solution offering for mate rated pics occupying page 1. Get rid of all the pages. Have the entire TRP load at once, onto one page that scrolls either verticaly or landscape...pretty simple huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fcalvo Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 Let's calculate how much bandwidth would be needed to implement the TRP page as suggested. Considering the 3day period as it is the default, we now have 1908 photos. Let's say each thumbnail is an average of 5000bytes that would give us 9,540,000 bytes to download for every single request of this page. If you were on a 56 Kbps modem, it would take you nearly 23 minutes to download just the images in the page. Now, if you were only being sarcastic about that suggested solution, I tell you that I just wanted to make that calculation for the sake of it. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincetylor Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 "OK..everything i've said here doesn't disagree with you at all, in fact i agree 110%." Paul G. Well good then. It would be hard to argue that mate-rating is not a major problem on Photo.net Paul. Worse now than I've ever seen it. We all agree! "How does it concern you if you aren't posting anything lately?" Paul G. That is a silly question Paul. It should concern anybody that posts images or just looks at images here. Manipulation tactics can often affect anybody with any reasonable sense of right and wrong in them. We all know it happens and all know it is pretty sad that people are that driven to get to the top. To make a comment about it in the site feedback forums is very reasonable. "In the real world its quite normal for people to lie,cheat,steal be greedy and self serving." In the real world if you "lie, cheat, steal" you can lose your job, go to jail, lose respect, lose your spouse etc etc. On Photo.net, it has been proven you can manipulate, lie, thrown in false flattery, mate-rate away and have your images put onto the top rated pages, while others not doing this often get buried. No great big deal. It's not the end of the world by any means. However, injustice is injustice. Lying is still lying...would be nice if it was dealt with, or a better system was put into place to minimize the effects. "but an amature guy like me could very well say that YOU are using this system as a means to your own ends through manipulation....get those cheaters off page 1 they are mate rating...so i can take my proper place." Paul G. That is just plain dumb. You must have had a lapse of some sort on this comment Paul. Getting any cheaters off any page is not any type of manipulation nor using any system! Hello out there... I have no qualms if you feel differently than do I. In fact this is already too much time taken away from other far more important things. It is an issue that we both and others agree is weakening the gallery in particular and the site as a whole to some degree. I hope the powers above continue to work on this problem. There's really not much else to say about it... Aloha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark lucas Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 Yeah, and check out the sarcastic response I received recently for daring to offer honest critique to one of the sycophants. Unfortunately, I can't think of anything to stop the mate raters but will continue to offer my honest appraisal and rating of photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul e. wog Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Slightly misconstued, not dumb at all, but shoddily written. Vested interest didn't refer to you specificaly, just an icon at this time. This is an amature site true? And almost all the members are here basically just to get some exposure and see how they measure up in the photography world. Now if thats not your bag then any moaning from the members doesn't have a great impact or priority. Sure its a prob but only .3542% of the people actually create a stink....radicals?...complainers? I think every single member feels discouragement at seeing spots "reserved" for the most popular as opposed to the truly "beautiful"......they just don't speak out they just rationalize a lot, like i've done thoughout this. I got better things to do than suggest endless solutions and suggestions to a wall. Is it being read and considered?...dunno. The less u say the less it can be misconstrued and quoted on. I write abuse all the time when noting things wrong...never do i get a reply... i'm insignificant i guess...so will just crawl off to my port and quit makin noise. One thing... i wouldn't blink an eye at payin $200 a year for membership if solutions were implemented for the endless moans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john falkenstine Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Mark, that same party had to be blocked from my E-mail because of the very lengthy hate messages he was sending. Using E-mails to "arrange" an image as he's blatantly doing effectively bypasses ALL of the photo.net standards and controls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_nitsche Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 John, send the emails to Brian. He will do something about it. He has before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howard_foto Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 John, he is probably right about the first type of email you mentioned. but an administrator can't do much about the chummy email-ring you describe without corroboratory proof, nor can it do anything about any ring that aims to black-ball or ostracize particular members from the community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howard_foto Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 108 hours since I briefly posted on the subject and the top TRP quality has worsened significantly more. in one respect this trend is probably a good thing since it may eventually hasten changes to end this embarrassment for the benefit of all concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john falkenstine Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Howard, some folks are even noting in their comments that they received E-mail "inviting" them to the image. As for the offending party, I realize that I'm dealing with an emotional child here and I have simply blocked his E-mail. Sooner or later he will tip the photo.net tolerance scale and that's it. My personal preference is that photo.net is a fair playing field for ALL, and those who can't accept that as a rule need to be made aware of the situation. I certainly pushed the limit and got some notes, but my basic attitude is sheer enjoyment of photography and photographing of the environment in which I live. If others rate it whatever, that's (now) OK with me. As Brian has noted before, there are no prizes to be won here and there's no contest going on either...But the issues DO make top photos boring to look at and have a stifling effect causing others to simply and quietly go elsewhere after a while. As for me, I try and sort the top images differently or go to the bottom of the stack and work my way up. If there was only a way to go into the CENTER of the TRPs that might help some, instead of constantly looking at the crust on the bread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howard_foto Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 <p>"<i>If there was only a way to go into the CENTER of the TRPs that might help some, instead of constantly looking at the crust on the bread.</i>" <p>yes, a "go to page or image number xxxx" function would be quite useful and smart tool to include. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul e. wog Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 John you are referring to me as being the "one who actually admitted recieving an invitation in the comment"..and yes it was...with an unbelievable outcome. Its there for all to read on page 1 and theres nothing to hide. I have never recieved such an invitation before, from anyone. There was not a mention of rating, it was more just a promo. A media blitz thing. But it specificial stated... "Please find some time and write your input on this"....... that is ALL it ASKED for. Wow i'm stunned considering our past head bashing. I'm honoured that he finds me so honest and objective to actually invite me. I see it as a reaching out to put our past behind us.... I figured he read my views stated earlier in this post, combined with my admiration of his last image, and thought...ok i run this by Greenwood, it does ok then it must be a winner.... In retrospect thats a bit fatheaded of me for sure, but at the time its exactly what it seemed...i admired his honesty and bravery.... So i do it. Now its still up for all to see, unedited and wont be. Not hiding a thing..... Next day comes a mail from him... well u didn't have to mention an email to critque. I write back...no no its fine, it shows everybody you are treating your art to public scrutiny without bias and i'm showing my respect by seeing the positive rather than only the negetive...we need to get along here, fighting isn't helping either of us...after all we are just artists with a common interest when it comes down to it.. blah blah...its a good thing. No answer back.... now to write this bit here, i had to carefully re-read this "invitation"..... know what? Wasn't even addressed to me in the first place!!!!! Someone else i won't name, but how it came to here i don't know. No doubt i'm on his list...I also recieved 4 Christmas cards to other people from the same party, alone this Christmas it was kinda a bonus,,, even though not mine i added them to the mental total. Don't ask me how he manages but thats the whole story. loooool I feel more than dumb going through all those motions and now LMAO... but no harm was done, its all good...and main point...there wasn't anything "underhanded" going on in my view. In fact would anybody be dumb enough to send their #1 advisary an invitation to mate rate them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john falkenstine Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Paul, the subject party whose URL we are not allowed to post is an issue. He has attracted a following. Those followers have picked up on the "successful" pattern and are now copying it blatantly. Those who comment on their pictures in a manner not acceptable to them received remarks below their images of a personal "ad hominem" nature outside the scope of the image or receive or have received hateful and extremely lenghty E-mails, or have had their images mocked. M. Lucas got a taste of what I'm talking about. Everybody can have their own choice of what they want to do with the parties. Personnally, I wouldn't bite the poison apple if it was sent to me. BTW there are plenty of excellent images in photo.net...There are THOUSANDS of them, and the folks who post them play no head games and probably welcome some critique and feedback. The best thing we can do is probably ignore these (manipulator) folks and if photo.net doesn't want to deal with them, or finds that they help photo.net by attracting more viewers, well, that's photo.net's bag. The membership fee is a pittance and if I don't like the environment, I can, of course, can always pick my images up and move somewhere else, or simply stop looking at the images and only concentrate on some specific forums, which is what a large number of former image posters now do. (Essentially surrendering the TRP section to the lumpenphotoproletariat). But...I happen to like photo.net and might be a bit naive in assuming that they work to a standard that includes knocking off the manipulators and those who fall victim to them...BTW I rate under my own name only, have no sock-puppets or alternate sign-ons of any kind...and parties who accused me of doing so have shot their blanks and lacked the fortitude to say, hey, I made a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micheleberti Posted January 29, 2005 Author Share Posted January 29, 2005 It isn't in my style and I never did an invitation to someone to see my photos... but I do not see anything wrong if someone invite some people looking at his/her photos. The only nasty thing of this is when people start leaving non-sense feedbacks like "wow", "great dof", "great expression" etc etc... and when all of those who have been invited leave their 7/7. If this is the only purpose of the invite then it is simply propaganda and take that for what is worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilsontsoi Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Paul, o.k., no names on site feedback, but how about cluing us in of which country were the Christmas Cards sent from? Very interesting thread so far, I'd say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul e. wog Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Having this accidental treasure so to speak is like a glimpse inside a board meeting of the "mob"...its a treat. I see nothing whatsoever expecting a favour, wording is innocent "look at me", nothing underhanded. In fact if i left the same thing on one of your pics in comments your only objection would be shutup and quit hoggin up the comment space with self promotion. So i would exonerate the person from any intent...perhaps the mate rate aspect comes into play from the person recieving it...like stupid me so honoured getting this special treatment... feeling they "owed" the person for that.... this person would probably normaly be an underling and just be thrilled that the party considered him worthy. Not many do this promotion but consider if it became in vouge big time. All email is accesable here to make a list...there could be thousands of these spam promos every day hitting your box...i don't like the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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