questions from new hasselblad user

[andrew_roesner]

i just received my first MF camera in the mail! it's a 500cm with the

a12 back; im really excited. im still waiting for the lens to come

but i have some questions in the mean time. i've figured out how to

work the shutter release, the mirror lock-up, and how to take the

back on and off, darkslide, etc, but i still dont understand some

things about the asa setting. do i need a special tool to change the

number? and, i hope for some reason i'm wrong about this, but the

only reason i would bother to set the asa on the back is to remember

what fim i have in there, in other words, the setting has no affect

on exposure. how then, can i make exposure changes in increments less

than 1 stop? if i'm metering a subject for zone V and the meter gives

me f11 at 1/80th then do i need expose at 1/60th and use N-(1/3)

development!?! after some thought this is the only solution i can

come up with. am i missing something? im looking forward to a simple,

no-brain answer that should have been obvious to me! TIA.

[ellis_vener_photography]

And I thought my grammar was bad!<P>

<I>" i hope for some reason i'm wrong about this, but the only

reason i would bother to set the asa on the back is to remember

what fim i have in there, in other words, the setting has no affect

on exposure."</I><P> You are correct on this last point. It is a

completely manual camera.<P><I>"How then, can i make

exposure changes in increments less than 1 stop?"</I><P>The

lens is set in half stop increments. So at worst you'd be 1/6th of a

stop off -- not enough to worry about.<P>

[andrew_roesner]

ellis,

 

thank you for your pretentious remark; it serves the community well.

[art_haykin]

The grammar isn't so bad as is the lack of proper capitalization and punctuation, irregardless ta menshun.

[mikolaip]

Andrew,

 

Enjoy your camera, I'm sure you'll be happy with it.

 

Please, make sure you load the film properly! A lot of miraculous, strange and unexpected phenomena can happen if you don't. The film has to be threaded in the space/slot between the pressure plate and the silver narrow clip extending over the far edge of the plate. Feel free to email me directly for details if you wish.

 

Also, please remember that the shutter speed dial on CF lenses can be set between the "click stops" (i.e. full values) but this will NOT give you half shutter increments. The camera will randomly select one of the speeds flanking your setting and you'll not know which one.

 

The camera is fully mechanical, so the only place you'd set film speed would be on your separate exposure meter (unless you buy this strange "meter knob"). The ASA dial you have is just a reminder what speed film you have in the camera. My A12 back does not have any ASA setting dial in the rear, just the holder for the film box flap.

[q.g._de_bakker]

Andrew,

 

There is no special tool to change the ASA setting. You just have to fiddle it with your fingers.

 

Most likely your meter will also give you a fractional indication of the aperture you need to set at, say, 1/60th sec. Round that fractional aperture value up or down to the nearest half stop, and set the lens' aperture to that. That way the actual exposure will not be off more than 0.2 of a stop. Which is ample precise. No worries. And no need to change processing to correct for this either.

[jackflesher]

Ellis wrote: <i>The lens is set in half stop increments. So at worst you'd be 1/6th of a stop off -- not enough to worry about.</i><p>

 

Hmmm... Full stops on the shutter speed and 1/2 stops on the aperture... Wouldn't this only guarantee to get you to within 1/4 stop? Perhaps I'm missing something...

[squareframe]

Jack,

 

you are forgetting about the inverse-square law.

[jerry_lehrer]

Andrew

 

All of the above could have been obviated if you had the manual. The

500CM is a fairly straightforward camera with a few idiosyncracies.

The owners manual or Wildi's book would lead you away from the problems.

 

In Engineering, we have a saying; "If everything else fails, read the

#*#*ing manual!"

 

Jerry

[jackflesher]

<i>Jack,

you are forgetting about the inverse-square law.</i><p>

 

Daniel: Don't think so -- f-stops is f-stops! As such they already account for the inverse square law. Let's take the following example: The exact exposure required is f8+1/4 @ 1/125. I can set the lens to f8 or f8+1/2, and the shutter speeds to 1/125, and be off by 1/4 stop. As soon as the exposure falls to either side of f8+1/4, I will be less than 1/4 stop off by choosing the closest 1/2 stop increment available.<p>

 

Now, if we only recognize that metering accuracy to 1/3 stop is available, such as when we use our trusty Pentax digital spot meters, then I see the point. With 1/2 stops available on the lens, we can get to within 1/6th stop of what our Pentax meter tells us is the correct exposure. BUT, we are still not getting to within 1/6 stop of the exact exposure. Example: If the exact exposure required is f8+1/4, the P spot meter will tell us to use f8+1/3. The closest we can get to f8+1/3 on our camera is f8, and hence we will still be off 1/4 stop from the required exposure.<p>

 

And more importantly, 1/4 stop off really doesn't matter IMO either :-)<p>

 

Cheers,

[squareframe]

Jack,

 

you must have missed the previous threads on the mystery of light. I was being facetious .. apologies extended. yes, 1/4 stop is correct and intolerable in my work photographing park benches and doorways.

[roger_michel]

andrew -- my apologies if this was your introduction to the MFD!! there must have been something in the fixer last night at the big MFD dance. most people here are not usually this surly. anyway, as to your questions: the asa dial is just a reminder. it should turn with finger-force, but sometimes gets gummed over the years. as for your concern about precise exposure (i.e. increments smaller than 1/3 of a stop), i am afraid you have chosen the wrong camera if your goal is absolutely pinpoint precise exposures. a mechanical leaf shutter is going to get you close enough for almost any purpose (provided it is properly maintained), but exposure will vary depending on exact state of lubrication, how many shots you have fired in a row, temperature, and aperture (exposure with all leaf shutter lenses varies with aperture). the net result is going to be a margin of eroor of at least 1/3 of a stop. however, almost nobody's metering and development regimens are tite enough to ensure that 1/3 of a stop will really make a difference. further, even slide films have a little (ok very little) latitude. finally, in my view, it is silly to even talk about an exposure beight "right" to 1/3 of a stop. exposure is a highly subjective process, that calls upon the photog's judgment in deciding how much shadow detail, hi-lite detail will be included in a pic. usually compromises (even in a zone world) have to be made. as a result, there is usually a range of potential "rite" exposures for every scene. if you are still worried, you can test your shutter everyday (calumet has a great little $49 tester), and learn to adjust the diaphragm in between the half stop click stops. anyway, you've got a great camera. enjoy it. and come back to the MFD again. i am certain you'll get a better reception.

[kevin_kolosky]

Andrew

 

I have enjoyed reading what most of the other guys have had to say, but the plain and simple truth of the matter is that none of that stuff is going to matter one single bit unless you beg, borrow, steal, or buy a good light meter and calibrate it to your camera, your film, your paper, and your processing.

 

I do agree with reading the Hasselblad manual. that is because it is critical that you learn that the lenses must be cocked to put them on the body, and that IF YOU ARE NOT CAREFUL TO HOLD THE LENS BUTTON ALL THE WAY IN FOR THE ENTIRE TIME YOU ARE TAKING A LENS OFF you could set off the shutter but not be able to remove the lens, and then you will have to have a repair person open up the camera for you to get it off, or at least use a screwdriver through the back of the camera to recock the shutter (if you have not gone beyond a certain point where the shutter cannot be cocked from inside).

 

I have been using them for 30 years. they are a great camera. good luck.

 

Kevin

[Rob F.]

Andrew, most of this confusion will be cleared up instantly once the lens arrives. Do be sure to have both camera and lens cocked before you mate them together. On a CF type lens, it's no more difficult to deal with the 1/2 stop clicks on a Zeiss lens, than it is on a Nikon, Canon, or Zibalowbowitz. On the C-type, I think it's easiest to just go the the nearest click stop. Once you hold the lens in your hands, it will be pretty much intuitively obvious.

[tito sobrinho]

Piotr wrote: "The camera will randomly select one of the speeds flanking your setting and you'll not know wich one" Am I missing something? Thanks, Tito.

[susej_natas]

The A12 magazine is very sensitive to the thickness of the paper backing on 120 film. See the little red arrow on the magazine insert? That's for lining up the <i>Start</i> mark on the film. Now, imagine that's 12 o'clock. For Ilford film, align the <i>Start</i> to 10 o'clock. For Fuji, to 2 o'clock. Kodak works well at 12 o'clock.

[andrew_roesner]

thank you, everyone, for your kind and insightful answers. you've managed to put some of my concerns to rest, only to provide new ones. im glad to hear there are 1/2 stop increments for the shutter speed, but piotr, im a little confused about your comment on the randomness of it. the way i'm interpreting what you said is, for example, if i select the "1/2" speed between 1/125 and 1/250 that the camera will choose either 1/125 or 1/250. this possibility seems very unlikely to me. is it that the 1/2 stop is simply not very accurate?

 

im not as concerned about precision as i might have led on. it's only that i've gotten used to the novelty of 1/3 stop increments. i do, however, plan to test the shutterspeeds of the lens, and i'd like to hear some ideas for doing so. i have a densitometer so i think i'll simply make zone V exposures with all the speeds and see how they match, unless someone has a better way. . .

 

kevin, i'm glad you had something to say, because i'd like to thank you for answering this and all of the other questions in the past. i've come to recognize your responses as being consistantly un-biased, and truthful without being overstated or speculative. these are two qualties that are very valuable to a forum like this one. i agree with you totally on the light meter, and if all goes well i'll have a pentax/zone VI soon. does anyone know of other used sources for this (and quality camera stuff in general) besides ebay? in place of the actual manual i have Wildi's book on the way from amazon. i hope it's knowledge is as thorough as the price is high!

 

im excited about the idea of, as many have written, "slowing down" with the medium format. i've never worked with a totally manual camera. the potential trouble i'll have with loading film and mounting the lens is worrysome, but, rob, you're right in that it will all make sense once the lens is here.

 

thanks for all the help. i'll report back once the lens has arrived and let you know how it went.

[q.g._de_bakker]

Andrew,

 

There are NO INTERMEDIATE SHUTTERSPEEDS. (Excuse me for shouting, but there seems to be some confusion, so i thought i made this extra clear ;-))

What was mentioned is that if you put the shutterspeed ring in between click stops (a thing you SHOULD NOT DO) you don't know which of the two adjoining speeds will be used.

This is not because the shutter is inaccurate, but simply because there are no half stop shutterspeed settings. So never attempt to do such a thing. The idea alone is pure foolery.

 

If you do want a Hasselblad and intermediate shutterspeeds, have a look at the 2000/200 series. The focal plane shutter in these models do indeed offer half stop increments.

And they too offer the "opportunity" to set the shutterspeed ring in between two half stop click stops. Guess what...? ;-))

[andrew_roesner]

thanks for clearing that up. now that i understand exactly what the "half stop" deal is, i wonder why anyone would EVER do that!?! sounds like nothing good could result. thanks again.

[tito sobrinho]

Andrew: Sorry, to extend this debate. In reality, the 1/2 setting on the Hasselblad lenses are due to the EV system (Compur invention) as well as in the Rollei EVS, Retinas, etc; in order to easily accommodate the several combinations that a light meter will give you. The true settings are in thirds like: (f1),1.1, 1.2; (f1.4), 1.6, 1.8; (f2), 2.4, 2.5; (f2.8), 3.2, 3.5 (f4) and so on. Tito.

[q.g._de_bakker]

Tito,

 

I'm sorry, but i cannot make any sense of what you wrote about EV systems and 1/3 stops.

 

First, the half stop intervals on Hasselblad lenses are there simply because they elected to have the aperture change in 1/2 stop increments. They could have easily elected to give them any other increment size, without the EV "system" interfering, or imposing at all. Fractional EVs can be expressed any way you want to.

 

And what do you mean by "the true settings are [etc.]"??? Intermediate apertures too can be expressed any way you want to (e.g. 1/4 increments: 1.4 - 1.5 - 1.7 - 1.8 - 2.0 See?), and thus can be changed by any increment you want. You just can't set 1/3 (or 1/17) values when the lens doesn't allow that (well, you even can, but not with any precision. That's what click-stops are for).

[dick roadnight cotswolds]

This deserves a thread in its own right - see "101 ways not to get a photograph with a Hasselblad"

[andrew_roesner]

hey all-

 

im glad to report that i went over to the local photo shop and got a roll of tri-x 120 just so i could practice loading. i managed to figure it out on the 2nd try! im a little confused because the half stop discussion has turned from shutter speeds to f stops. are half stops in aperture also available? and if so are they useable? thanks again.

 

andrew

[q.g._de_bakker]

Andrew,

 

Half stop aperture settings are indeed available. And yes, they are usable.

 

In fact, you should use them whenever your meter suggests a setting differing more than 2/10th of a stop from any "full stop" settings.

That way (assuming you're using a meter that gives readings in 1/10th EV, of course) your camera settings are never more than 0.2 EV off compared to the meter's suggested setting. That's close enough.

[roger_michel]

you guys do understand that there is much more than a .2 EV difference in exposure between 1/500th at f2.8 and 1/500th at f22 due to the design limitations of the leaf shutter??