Digital Dilemma

[a._balagopal]

Hello Everyone,

 

I am in a dilemma and need all the help I can get.Two weeks now, I

have been entrusted with the task of deciding which digital camera to

buy for the office.(I work as an aircraft engineer for one of India's

leading domestic airlines). The camera is required to take pictures

of aircraft defects, damages and such technical subjects including

close up shots.Most of the time the pictures would be viewed on the

monitor, sent via e-mail to various manufacturers of aircraft and

equipment and used for documenting our work. Since it will mostly be

used inside and around airplanes by people working on the aircraft,

it needs to be well built and sturdy with a fair amount of weather

sealing and good battery life.The budget is between $400 to $500

USD.I have been looking at the various offerings in the 4-5 MP range

from Canon, Nikon and Sony. I have seen Sony's models such as the

P73, P93 and P100 and found them too delicate and small, almost

flimsy.I have seen Nikon's CP4200,CP5200 and the CP4500.From Canon,I

may have to choose from the A95, A85 or the A75, (I have not handled

these yet).Of all these, Nikon's CP4500 seems to be a good choice and

well recommended but I am not sure about the picture quality, (blown

and clipped highlights). With the plethora of models around now,I am

thoroughly confused. Can you help me to choose a simple to use,

rugged model that handles well, in the 4-5 MP range that will also

take excellent images?BTW,I have been using an F70 and an F3 for my

own photographic pursuits for the last seven years.Thanks very much

in advance.

 

 

Bala

[k. patel]

Balagopal,

 

I have not used CP 4500, but I have CP 4300 in good light it takes excellent picturs, also for your type of work it has macro mode so you can take pictures at 1 to 2 inch from it.

 

Good luck,

 

K. Patel

[beeman458]

A company working on multi-million dollar jet engines and they'll only hit the hip for five hundred (US)?

 

Personally, I'd op'd out of that commitee.

 

Based upon what you wrote, short of a 1DMkII and a 100mm and 180mm macro lense, there's nothing that will fill your specs. Your comment: "Since it will mostly be used inside and around airplanes by people working on the aircraft, it needs to be well built and sturdy with a fair amount of weather sealing and good battery life. The budget is between $400 to $500 USD.", sort of closed the cabin door on this one.

 

I guess if I tried to apply your same standards towards balancing the turbine blades, reasonably the QC department would go nuts:)

 

"Hey you!" "You know what a jet engine is?" "Cool!" "You're hired." "Now I want you to balance that stack of turbine blades over there." "And I don't want any dents, bends or twists left either!"

 

One person, and only one person should be responsibile for getting and posting the shots, or you should have a designated shooter for each shift to get, process and post the image online. In this case, documentation, the key will be familiarity with the photo equiment and flash unit so as to be able to properly document damage; cracks breaks, marring, warpage, scratches, scrapes, bumps, bruising, corrosion, bulging, discoloration, wind damage (raised rivets), leaks, drips, shine or otherwise:)

 

Good luck with this one. Print my post, show it to management and tell them that they're wanting too much from too little and their bugetary constraints aren't being realistic with today's P&S, state-of-the-art technology; not for jet engine work documentation purposes.

[digitmstr]

The MAIN issue is that you need those two features:

 

1) real MACRO capabilities with high definition (sometimes metal cracks are not that easy to photograph.

 

2) an OFF-CAMERA flash to best position the light for each task and avoid blown highlights, reflections, etc.. which could easily cover the defects your are trying to photograph.

 

With those two requirements in mind I think you CAN do it with a Digital "P&S" but it would have to be something with a HOT-SHOE like the Canon G series or some of the Nikon and Olympus models. There are others as well (Panasonic, etc...). Just make sure they have a MACRO setting and a HOT-SHOE.

 

Ideally, you'd want to get a 300d or used 10D with a MACRO lens (like the 100mm f/2.8)

[Jochen_S]

Sorry; I can't second the EOS enthusiast above. Any p&s with a hotshoe to mount a good flash should be a good idea. You really don't need plenty of MP for e-mail. My only suggestions are: USB 2.0 outlet, no AA NiMhs (they use to end in a coworkers walkman...) The last p&s I got was a Coolpix 990, so let's hope somebody knows the latest models.

[ronald_biese]

If you use it to mail your pictures a canon A 95 will be more than OK.

I do understand your problem and know, did a lot of shots for Air France but it was a hassle to get payed every extra shot. It is an airline nothing else and they dont know quite nothing about photography. That\s ok anyway as it is an airline and I do not know anything about flying.

[beeman458]

"Sorry; I can't second the EOS enthusiast above."

 

For those that might have missed the requirements.

 

"Since it will mostly be used inside and around airplanes by people working on the aircraft, it needs to be well built and sturdy with a fair amount of weather sealing and good battery life."

 

How much weather sealing does a P&S have?

 

Are any P&S cameras ruggedized so as to qualify as "well built and sturdy"?

 

I have no idea as to battery life on a P&S when compared to that of the 1DMkII. But, considering the nature of the airline industry and legal requirements of the need for detail recordings of damage, will a P&S be up to the task of a courtroom challenge or recording the subtleties of differing types of damage in sufficient detail for detailed analytical engineering purposes?

 

What is the budget for the rebuild and certification of just one single jet engine, not including R&R, when compared to a new 1DMkII and a pair of high end macro lenses?

 

A P&S I feel, based upon the posted requirements of the requester, is the wrong choice of recording device for the venue, it has nothing to do with being an EOS fan or not as my advice is only concerned with recommending what I think to be the right tool for the job.

 

If the poster feels I'm out to lunch, cool. Have one of the guys at work bring in one of their P&S cameras from home and then have them grab a few shots. He'll be able to see if the P&S does so well when being knocked around in a wheel well, wire run or tossed about the shop for a year or two. He'll also be able to see if they're able to accurately document a hydraulic leak or the marring of a hydraulic piston or the discoloration of an overheated manifold, or the slight bulging of a high pressure line.

 

Shall we talk about white balance, ISO, low light focusing capabilites and ability to resolve dynamic range when in a stressed environment like a jet plane cockpit or the underbelly of an airbus?

 

Maybe we've all been fed a bill of goods as to the benefit of the higher end cameras and lenses and the manufactures are really just thieving from us because we're a bunch of stupid lemmings and we should all be using a P&S:)

 

Not trying to be polemic, just trying to make the point of "Horses for courses."

[wgpinc]

There are several people around doing outstanding macro work with the Canon G3. Certainly should be able to find a used one around for <$400. Just have to get familiar with the macro mode and use the lcd to compose. A pretty industrial strength unit. see for example:

http://www.pbase.com/timnyc24/canon_g3_macro_shots

 

This guy has really mastered insect photography with the Canon G3:

http://www.mplonsky.com/photo/article.htm

 

Ignore the guys who want to beat up on you for not having a $10K budget. Most of them couldn't get near M. Plonsky. Good luck

[dzeanah]

Buy a D30 off ebay?

[hendrik]

Fuji S20pro - great macro. Hot shoe & pc socket. 6mp and 6x optical.

[godfrey]

When a road defect destroyed the oil pan on my car and cost me $1200 in repairs, I

documented the damage and the road with a Sony DSC-U60 2Mpixel camera. It's pocket

sized, waterproof and ruggedized, can work with a digital slave flash (one of those that

can be set to deal with the camera's timing) and the 2Mpixel images were clear and well

detailed, good enough to support my claim and obtain a payment from the state transit

authority.

<br><br>

The U60 can focus down to 20cm and has only a fixed focal length lens. It's small enough

to wriggle into tight spaces too, something my DSLR is hopeless at. I've done many

product and example shots with it, like this composite I constructed of the Hakuba Grip-

LH fitted to a Canon 10D:

<br><br>

<center>

<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/godders/10DwHakubaGrip.jpg"><br>

<i>Canon 10D + 50mm lens + Hakuba Grip-LH - taken with Sony DSC-U60</i><br>

</center><br>

My feeling is that you often need far less in cameras than many people want to

recommend to get a job done. There's certainly little need for a DSLR for many of these

kinds of recording jobs. I don't know whether this little camera is adequate for your needs,

but something like it might well be ideal.

<br><br>

The DSC-U60 takes two NiMH AAA batteries, gets about 200 exposures per charge, and

will fit 620 full resolution exposures onto a single 256M Memory Stick PRO card. All up

cost of the camera with a spare set of batteries and one 256M card is around $250 in the

US. I've been using this one for about a year and 6500 exposures, under all kinds of

conditions, carry it stuffed into pockets, bags, dropped in the ocean at the beach, etc etc.

It just keeps working

and taking remarkably high quality pictures.

<br><br>

Godfrey

[mark_jacobs1]

If you want rugedness for the camera, you should definitely head out to a store and handle these point and shoots. The Canon A95, A85 or the A75 definitely don't fall in the ruged category in my opinion. I don't think that many P&S cameras do.

[beeman458]

There ya have it, the experts have weighted in on the matter. I'm all wet and the high end cameras are a rip. D'oh! :)

[godfrey]

No one said the high end cameras are a rip, Thomas. It's just that they're not the ONLY

solution for EVERY possible need. Most of this particular kind of work can be done with

much less camera than that. Remember that the excellent photographs being returned by

the Mars Rovers are taken with a measly 1Mpixel camera... But I'll give you that it is one

heck of a high end 1Mpixel camera! ;-)

 

The Sony U60 is excellent from the point of view that it is designed to be operated with

one hand, with simple controls and few options. Perfect for occasional use by a group of

non-photographer engineering/inspecting types. Just frame and click the button.

 

Godfrey

[beeman458]

And sometimes a high end camera is the proper tool for the job. I stand by my advice.

[beeman458]

"It's just that they're not the ONLY solution for EVERY possible need."

 

And where did I say they were?

[tedharris]

I have spet more time than I like flying on domestic Indian airlines and the original post

just gives me another very cogent reason to never do it again! The whole i dea is insane.

You are talking about using a low grade consumer camera to use for serious

documentation purposes. Insane.

 

I am not even sure that the 22 megapixel mamiya is what you should be using. I am sure

that whoever gave these initial instructions should be fired.

[walter_kraft]

Find a store that still has the Nikon 5400 in stock. It is all metal with a rubber coating and built like a mini Nikon Pro camera. Looks like a baby F5. Last month Nikon USA had a $200 rebate on this camera and it was selling for around $500...making it a $300 bargain purchase. It has everything you are looking for, great macro, 5mp, swivel out LCD panel(that might be important when you need to get the camera into a place without your head behind it), hot shoe etc. It is built better than a Canon G6 and comes in at your price range. In fact it is built sturdier than a Canon Rebel or Nikon D70.

 

Its only shortcomming for you is it has no autofocus assist light, just get a $10 laser pointer on a keychain and hang it off of one of the strap lugs.

 

If you can't find one in your country, look for one from a US retailer and have it shipped.

 

Good luck,

 

Walt

[Ed_Ingold]

Speaking as a project engineer, rather than a camera buff, I'd like to share the following.

 

It doesn't make sense to buy a high end camera for this application. You need something simple enough for non-buffs to operate, and small enough to carry so that it's available when needed. The technical requirements are not difficult to meet. Mainly, you need some macro ability to take closeups of construction details and defects, and perhaps some overviews. Just about any 3 or 4 MP P&S will meet this need. "A picture is worth a thousand words" applies well in this application.

 

Anything you buy for "common use" will get lost, damaged or stolen in short order. You can prolong the useful life by assigning prime responsibility of the camera to one individual.

 

Pick a camera with readily-available batteries and memory cards. For useability, I always like the Olympus cameras with clamshell covers. You can put them in a shirt pocket when you leave the office. Now there's an Olympus P&S digital that is drip-proof. I'm not advocating Olympus, necessarily, but rather the features that make them project-friendly.

 

If you face really technical needs, call in a pro, who could be someone in your own company (or you). In my experience, it's rare that you need something extra, but nice to have someone on tap.

[joe_toole1]

Hey! The guy asked for a p&s, not a bloody SLR!!!!

Try a Canon A80. I own one and find that it is very capable even in full auto mode. It's got a mostly metal body, it's 4 megapixel, and can handle fairly inclement weather as well. Takes 4 AA batteries, so budget for 8, so you can always have a fresh set.

Figure it this way: Take the shot, and if it doesn't look good, try again. It's Digital. It's free!! Keep shooting 'till you get it right.

 

The A 80 has awesome macro capabilities for a p&s camera if you're willing to learn a bit. Judging by your post, you have a fair bit of camera photographic experience. Shouldn't be a problem.

The A80 has been upgraded to the A95; which I assume is an even better camera. Or, you can look around on ebay for a used A80. you won't regret it.

[michael s.]

Simple to use, rugged, under $500, and with a "fair amount of weather sealing." For better or worse, that narrows your choices considerably.<p><p>

 

As to the sealing requirement, take a look <a href= http://steves-digicams.com/cameras_wr.html>at some of the cameras listed here</a>. Note that some good ones mentioned above are not sealed. Some of the ones on this list are actually underwater cameras, which of course you don't need.<p><p>

 

I've got a feeling you're going to wind up with a weather resistant Olympus, Pentax, or Sony point and shoot. Not certain that Canon or Nikon offer a camera with the required sealing in your price range. Or you could wind up with Fujifilm's DS-260HD "BigJob." If you've got a Big Job to do, that might be just the camera for you. -:)<p><p>

 

Good luck!

[michael s.]

Brief follow up:

 

Pentax makes the search a bit easier by putting the initials "WR" on its weather resistant cameras; Sony's is the U60 as noted above; and the digital p & s Olympus cameras with water resistance are the Stylus models (but perhaps not *all* the digital Stylus models ?)

 

The symbol that Canon and Nikon place before their sealed digital cameras is this one: $$$$$$ (and the reason is that they're the pro-level slr bodies).

 

Final point: Godfrey, who commented above, is a fine photographer and very knowledgeable about equipment. I don't know him personally, but he knows what he's talking about. (That comment is not intended to disparage any other poster.) I believe I've seen some posted photos by Godfrey using his U60 (which when you see it looks a bit like an electric razor, by the way), and for a 2 mpxl camera, it delivers the goods surprisingly well. Whether it's what you need ... I can't say.

[craig_gillette]

There's a broad range of cameras which wll do just fine. It's more important the the user(s) be trained and practiced in using it so they can get the kind of shots that will support the end uses.

[neil_parker]

The lighting is going to be just as important or even more so than the camera. You will

need at least a powerful flash with diffusion, some defects may benefit from specialized

lighting, I assume you're photographing reflective metal surfaces.

[john falkenstine]

Mr. A: I have extensive experience with the photography of Aircraft Defects and repairs, and was one of the first parties back in the 1980's to start transmittal of digital images to Boeing to expedite repair matters. Frankly, I'm totally amazed that the Engineering Bureau that you are working for is JUST NOW getting around to digital imaging, and more than likely, it does not have the software to even process the image after it has been taken. For your reference, digital cameras lead short and bitter lives in the Aircraft repair and maintenance environment. The dirt and particularly the hydraulic fluids will rapidly "wear" the unit and soon it will be dropped, and more than likely stolen, which happened sooner or later to ALL of the camera units in my Engineering office. The actual quality of the image will not be particularly relevant. The ability to rapidly generate an image that can be understood will be far more important, and images that require large files sizes are difficult to transmit. I know that even last year, Boeing's "Boecom System" still had issues in even accepting digital image files. In addition, some of the cameras recommended above will not fit in the spaces where you might have to photograph. My recommendation for your purpose is actually an older camera that has plenty of resolution and is very flexible as far as getting into tight spaces and still making a very good exposure. That camera is the Nikon Coolpix 4500 with its split body. The quality of the images made with this unit is so clear that it will actually show the dirt particles in screw slots of small screws. The split body will allow you to see what you are photographing without having to hold the camera to your face...Regards.