Plastics in the camera industry

[jon_sak]

It doesn't have to be so ruff. Companies are selling the cheapest things they can get away with at our expense. How many people on this board liked thier american car in the 80's? Big conglomerate retailers and manufactuers will in time make all of us have to by "an 80's american car" because their will be few differnces from the 1000's of products they make. A good example is certain hi8 camcorders vs new minidv camcorders. The older hi8 cameras in most cases had more features and a few today still have a better picture that most new equipment. But companies sold the consumer a bill of goods and few were the wiser. Our market is not as diverse as you think. I recently took a trip to Vietnam and saw many genuine leicas for sale at 70% of what we pay here. They were in just as good a condition as anything I have seen in the states. If it were not for ebay I would say they have a better slection of used 35mm equipment as well as new 35mm autofocus stuff. They DID NOT have a diverse selection of digital equipment, but I am trying to let everbody here know the use plastic is not for the consumer it is for the company. If anybody here knew manufacturing costs of your prefered nikon, canon etc you would be shocked. If i'm going to pay for something, I don't like the cost between manufactuing and retail price to be a difference of 200%

[paul_ogawa]

"Paul, please get out of here and shoot some nice photos with your nice camera, or buy more nice metal cameras and polish them. Seriously, no pun. "

 

I can't wait. Except I haven't got any lens for my camera body yet. I'm looking forward to purchase the following as soon as possible:

 

50mm f/1.8 AI

105mm f/2.5 AI-S

20mm f/4 AI

28mm f/2.8 AI-S

 

I've done my research and it seems those are among the best/sharpest lens you can put on a Nikon camera

[paul_ogawa]

In the mean time, I'm learning all the technicality of photography - optical physics, lens equations, all the termanologies, features, techniques.

 

Once I get the theoretical stuff nailed, I can't wait to get out and starting practicing in real life.

[everitt]

"I can't wait. Except I haven't got any lens for my camera body yet. I'm looking

forward to purchase the following as soon as possible:

 

50mm f/1.8 AI 105mm f/2.5 AI-S 20mm f/4 AI 28mm f/2.8 AI-S

 

I've done my research and it seems those are among the best/sharpest lens

you can put on a Nikon camera"

 

You're drooling over your camera body and haven't bought any lenses for

them yet??

 

"I have very high standard in everything I do and while I might not equal his

work someday, I will not be a dog either. But then, who knows. "

 

You're pretty arrogant to even compare yourself with Galen Rowell when all

you have is a metal camera with no lenses and no photos.

 

Look, do this while waiting for your lenses to come in... Buy a bunch of

disposable cams at your local supermarket and shoot, shoot, shoot, because

it's going to do you a hell of a lot more good than sitting here and bitching

about camera build quality.. Photography is a constant learning process, with

the best way of learning being to go out and shoot, learning by trial and error..

worrying about what materials go into a camera is only going stagnate your

learning..

[._._z]

It's not one then the other. Start photographing now, and pay attention to what you do,

what works, what you like in others' work. Get comfortable with the gear you have and

don't obsess over what you don't have. It's not the camera, it's the skilled hand using it.

[everitt]

"In the mean time, I'm learning all the technicality of photography - optical

physics, lens equations, all the termanologies, features, techniques."

 

Which is going to teach you nothing in terms of taking pictures...

[paul_ogawa]

"but I am trying to let everbody here know the use plastic is not for the consumer it is for the company. If anybody here knew manufacturing costs of your prefered nikon, canon etc you would be shocked. If i'm going to pay for something, I don't like the cost between manufactuing and retail price to be a difference of 200%"

 

True, they are using more plastics to lower the manufacturing cost while coating it with silver paint to fake metal so they can sell it to people who will pay the metal price.

[paul_ogawa]

""I have very high standard in everything I do and while I might not equal his work someday, I will not be a dog either. But then, who knows. "

 

You're pretty arrogant to even compare yourself with Galen Rowell when all you have is a metal camera with no lenses and no photos."

 

I'm not arrogant, only proud and confident. Galen Rowell might be a world class photographer, but he's only human. I'm human too. And in terms of creativity or intelligence or hands eye coordination, I doubt if I'm any worse than him.

 

If you think I'm arrogant, let me tell you this. I'm a college sophomore with no professor mentor or high tech equipment, all I had was a calculator, some papers, and a protractor, and I've solved a technical difficulty that the global companies haven't solved in decades. I've already won licenses from Caterpillar, Honda, Toyota, to name a few. Just because they have all the engineers in the world doens't mean I can't take them on.

 

If I don't do something, I don't do it. But if I decide to do something, I'll make sure it's worldclass, and I have the perseverance and the ability. I'm about the most competitive and perfectionist person there is. Don't try to scare me with Galen Rowell.

 

I might be a little more impressed if you bring up Einstein, the Wright Brothers, or Soichiro Honda.

[paul_ogawa]

""In the mean time, I'm learning all the technicality of photography - optical physics, lens equations, all the termanologies, features, techniques."

Which is going to teach you nothing in terms of taking pictures..."

 

So you mean knowing how light converges in different lens design or how lens geometry affect depth of field or minimum focusing distance won't save me a little time when I actually go practice. Compared to someone who doesn't even know what an aperture is and just waste film and pray.

 

I will do experiments, recording the different shutter speeds, aperture, exposures...under different situations. Keeping all variables constant while varying one, to see truly how it affects the picture.

 

Once you know that can you become creative and actually start compose the picture.

[paul_ogawa]

I guess people back then are even more fussy about build quality than me...haha. Look at what happened to the Nikon E class lenses.

 

http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/nikortek.htm

 

"They were built with well thought out, simple to manufacture optics and cheaper mechanics that were more than good enough for amateur use. These cheaper mechanics are often better than what Nikon makes today in some of their cheaper plastic AF lenses. "

 

"These great lenses were never popular because Nikon was too honest.

 

Back then Nikon admitted that they used a little plastic here or there in the Series E lenses, which at the time was considered a crime. Remember everything is made of plastic today but back then that everything was metal and weighed a ton."

 

"Too bad, because the Series E were great lenses and far better than the discount ones. Today most Nikon AF lenses are far more cheaply made than the Series E were, and they are called Nikkor. Heck, even some of the super-expensive AF-S lenses have PLASTIC filter threads, and the Series E were solid metal."

 

"From what I've seen Series E lenses typically had anodized black aluminum barrels and focus helicoids instead of enameled brass barrels and brass helicoids as the manual focus Nikkors do. All Series E had metal mounts, although some had plastic focus heliciods. They had aluminum zoom cams. Today's cheap AF Nikkors have plastic mounts and very little metal anywhere. The Series E have plastic aperture rings, a crime in their time but standard on almost every expensive Nikon lens today. The series E were very precisely made mechanically."

 

Oh well

[tito sobrinho]

Paul, don't drive your car tomorrow. The bumpers and dashboard are made of plastic. The Saturn has doors and fenders made of plastic. Another day, somebody bumped on my rear bumper but, I did not noticed any damage. Cameras made with polycarbonate can stand more bumps without damage than a metal one.

[everitt]

"So you mean knowing how light converges in different lens design or how

lens geometry affect depth of field or minimum focusing distance won't save

me a little time when I actually go practice. Compared to someone who

doesn't even know what an aperture is and just waste film and pray. "

 

I know people who take absolutely stunning pictures who can't tell an f-stop

from a bus stop, yet it doesn't hinder them when they are snapping pics.

Reading all that will not help one iota compared to practicing...

 

"If you think I'm arrogant, let me tell you this. I'm a college sophomore with no

professor mentor or high tech equipment, all I had was a calculator, some

papers, and a protractor, and I've solved a technical difficulty that the global

companies haven't solved in decades. I've already won licenses from

Caterpillar, Honda, Toyota, to name a few. Just because they have all the

engineers in the world doens't mean I can't take them on. "

 

You need to learn something very important before you read up on lens

physics... humility. There's lot's of people on this site who are very well

educated, yet they don't use it to attempt to elevate themselves above others.

I am currently doing my PhD in cell biology, but that does not make me better

or smarter than anyone else. Some of the smartest people I know have never

received a post-secondary degree.

[kelly_flanigan1]

"Plastic" is a huge jungle and range of materials; in cost and performance.<BR><BR> Many engineering plastics are more costly than cheap zinc die castings; or aluminum die castings. Here folks are making fond dreams of cheaper materials; that weight more. Glass filled plastics cost more; the cost more to drill; than non glass filled plastics. The glass is added to add stiffness; and make the part more stable and stronger. <BR><BR>This whole deal about dreaming about how great mostly all metal camera cameras are is abit goofy. Maybe you could send the soldiers in Iraq metal helmets; that weight more; and have the same protection as a lighter modern composite helmet. They will say your name each day; the added weight; and no gain in performance will make their toil worse.<BR><BR>In items that dont care about weight; often a lower cost cheap metal stamping or sheet metal part is used; instead of a radically higher performance; higher cost engineering plastic. Metal is often considered the "junk"; ie cheap; BS low tech; stuff in some items; and the engineering plastics the "high tech"; high perforance parts.<BR><BR>Grab a Nikon F that is at sub zero temperature with your bare hands; and Grab a low end Canon EOS that has a plastic body. Your hand will freeze to the metal body; and tend to feel alot more comfortable with a low mass plastic body.<BR><BR>Add a metal covering or case to a new high tech camera to just please folks who are stuck in their ways; or want the body stuck to their hands in freezing weather..... <BR><BR>This whole bias "for metal" comes up in Engineering design reviews; often the marketing chaps want metal on the outside; to make the old farts happy. This many times adds cost; but drops the quality of the item. But one must weight the added cost with negative performance; ; versus the slight loss in sales; due to an emotional; irrational perceived loss in quality. <BR><BR>Many times just chroming the plastic parts; or making them silver colored; makes folks "feel" better. <BR><BR>People and animals (rats) tend to swipe and horde shiny objects. Black objects; tools; tend to not get stolen as much. <BR><BR>Whether more metal or plastic; many items today tend not to be as repairable; alot to the anti plastic bias is aimed at this trend.

[kelly_flanigan1]

Whether more metal or plastic; many items today tend not to be as repairable. Alot of the Beef is the anti plastic bias trend.

[._._z]

Polycarb yields lighter, smaller bodies which can also be made stronger ... for less

money. Those savings, in this cutthroat market, as passed along to consumers. If you're

using a tool you have the choice to spend a lot more for larger, heavier equipment with

more metal, which is probably more expensive to produce and whose cost gets passed

down to you. (See "Leica".) But most people understand that the end result is important,

and they're not wedded to older, often outdated notions of solidity and value, and they

get the photos they want from the smaller, lighter, newer, less expensive gear. Funny,

that.

[ron c sunshine coast,qld,a]

There are two main problems that bug me about the metal/poly compromise-

<BR>metal cameras are allomost all horrible shaped lumps

<BR>..while plastic ones just feel cheap

[._._z]

I dunno -- lumpy EOS bodies seem to fit the hand better than most old metal SLRs of

the 70s/80s.

[Brian]

My take on the question of camera build quality is that cameras are tools, they are there to be used, and one thing that affects the way you use them is the way they feel in your hand. I guess also what they look like may have an impact as well. Anyway, you feel more confident and do better work with a tool that feels right. If it's an old, heavy, metal-bodied camera, well so be it. Whatever works for you. Certainly I would not say, as some in this thread seem to do, that the camera doesn't matter. If you like your camera, you'll enjoy your photography and you'll take better pictures.

[jon_sak]

I don't think Paul is nessasarily complaining about lenses, but rather about bodies today. There have always been cheap and quality lenses available and in the 80's plastics became common in lenses. I think we all know that today plastic lenses are cheaper that metal and glass. However bodies are another issue. Cheap plastic bodies WILL have a limited shelf life, its a gaurantee, and companies will not repair or service your $2000 investmment in the future. However cameras that have mechanical bodies and analog electronics will be good for another 10-20 years. Your lenses will most likely still be good though. But look at that money thats in your hand that you shoot photos with. When it gets stored in your basement or attic and your grand kids find it after you are long gone, THEY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO USE IT. How many people on this board got into photography because a camera was passed on to them from a deseaced realtive?

[phule]

http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html

"Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments"

 

Because you can't recognize your own failings you refuse to accept anything but your own ill-formed and incorrect opinion. Anyone who makes claims otherwise is dismissed without any regard to the quality of their argument because you don't recognize the flaws in your own. It is a self-sustaining circle that can only be broken when you actually mature beyond the level of a 13-year-old.

[jon_sak]

ROB who are you speaking to? What are you talking about? Please be specific so we can stay on topic

[phule]

<< ROB who are you speaking to >>

 

Paul, of course; the only one here making authoritative and absurd claims after having been involved in photography for all of 2 weeks.

 

There is no more "on-topic" here. This is a never-ending thread of Paul claiming he has all the answers and others pointing out he doesn't. There isn't anything more to say. No one is going to convince him of his ignorance.

[jon_sak]

ROB, do you have and advanced degree in the Social Sciences? The article you have reference is from 1999 and is in Social Psychology. That field is under great acedemic pressure and conflict. Secondly the article may be too old to hold up to acedemic snuff in 2004. I did graduate work in anthropology and Social Psychology is a tough field to argue for becuse it is devoid of the scientific method. Please stay with the the camera stuff and the get into a philosophical debate about the mind.

[phule]

<< ROB, do you have and advanced degree in the Social Sciences? >>

 

Clearly I do not.

 

<< Please stay with the the camera stuff and the get into a philosophical debate about the mind. >>

 

This, as written, doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If you want to stay on topic, you are free to ignore my comments rather than respond to them.

[michael_peters1]

<i>However bodies are another issue. Cheap plastic bodies WILL have a limited shelf life, its a gaurantee, and companies will not repair or service your $2000 investmment in the future.</i>

<br> <br>

um, SLR cameras are a LOT cheaper than $2000 - and as far as how long they last - an EOS 650 my sister has has an electrical problem. It is fixable. My EOS 650 is still going very strong. Mom's 630 is still going strong. Now there is a problem with the shutter that sometimes happens with these bodies, but that is fixable.

<br> <br>

The EOS line isn't twenty years old yet - but they still can be serviced at many places, and were not a $2000 investment. Now if you are counting lenses in investment, well, that's silly - because a dead body doesn't mean the lenses are useless. They will work just fine on a new body.