roger_michel Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 i wonder if any forum members have acquired these new products and would like to comment on their experiences with same. there have been very few reviews of either product. i am especially interested to hear how people are using the 90/4. is it primarily being purchased as a travel lens, or are a significant (in leica terms) number of people actually using the macro feature?? also, feel free to discuss the demise of film. we're getting like canada with minimum content requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brien_m Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 There was a lengthy thread on the CM recently. You should be able to find it easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay_. Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 There was a guy selling his CM a little while ago, maybe he'd be a good guy to ask...assuming he sold it and will now be candid about why. I'm sure the 90/4 is primarily being purchased for the same reason any new Leica lens is purchased at first: because some people must have one of everything new Leica makes. The 90/4 is available straight away in both black and chrome, which is a good hint as to the market Leica is targeting. I'm sure anyone who buys the lens and actually shoots with it will try out the macro feature (assuming they also coughed-up the add'l $800 clams for the google-eyes)whereupon they will find of course that it's not anywhere near a macro at all, at only 1:3 magnification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert_smith Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 <I>...there have been very few reviews of either product...</I><P> The current Popular Photography magazine (Feb '04) has a full review of the new 90mm f/4.0 macro. They use a color coded graph as well as subjective narrative. It got pretty good notes in most areas. One slightly negative comment was made about the hood fit, which is suppose to be very tight. Check it out on the newstand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watts Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 I have the 90/F4. My single motivation for acquiring it is as a compact travel lens. A secondary bonus is it's ability to frame tighter than any other M lens. I haven't bothered with the close-up goggles as I'm not particularly interested in macro photography (even 1:3 scale). I have no interest in buying the CM but I did have a play with one that my dealer had in stock. Overall impression was that it felt very cheap with some pretty awful low grade plastic used for the buttons, etc. A used T2 represents an infinitely preferable buy for a camera in this category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george_shihanian Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 The early reports by users here on the CM were not good. It seems quite a few suffered from electronics that started to go haywire almost immediately after purchase. I know this isn't a user's report, just an opinion/observation... The 90/4 macro seems too expensive (what else is new?) for "casual" macro shooters to dedicate a big chunk of change to buy that lens. And, IMO, for dedicated macro shooters, there's other choices out there than Leica M, although you can certainly get stunning macro results with an M. I'd like to know who is using it as a travel lens? Why buy this lens and limit yourself to an f/4 aperture when there's so many other 90mm choices in the f/2 and 2.8 range? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watts Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 The hood point is a good one. Notwithstanding the fact that it does seem a bit of a tight fit to get it on and off, it is also of ridiculous proportions compared to the lens. It does mount in reverse on the lens but I have chosen to leave my hood in the box the lens came with and take my chances with flare. A little bit annoying because the hood is one of those metal ones (like the latest 3E hood) which Leica like to sell (in the UK) as a 100 quid accessory. I would rather have bought the lens sans hood for a few quid less. If flare becomes an issue I'll acquire a cheap rubber third party solution that I can screw into the filter thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter_evans4 Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 <p>I recently bought a <a href="http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/v23/msg09670.html">Serenar 100/4</a> as a travel (etc.) lens. Initial results are excellent. It's compact, and ligher than it looks. I think it fits on any body that takes a Leica 90/4, while the converse is certainly not true -- particularly important for me, as I lack any M-mount body. Also, it cost me <a href="http://www.xe.com/">10,000 yen</a>, which I would imagine is fairly competitive in Leica/Leitz terms.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watts Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 <i>I'd like to know who is using it as a travel lens? Why buy this lens and limit yourself to an f/4 aperture when there's so many other 90mm choices in the f/2 and 2.8 range?</i><br><br>I've already stated in this thread that I have acquired the 90/4 as a travel lens. The reason for this lens is simple - small size and low weight. I already have the f2.8 and think it's one of the best lenses in the current M range (beautiful mixture of old Leica smoothness with new Leica contrast and sharpness) but for the percentage of shots I use a 90 for I tend to leave it behind as an added weight and size I could with out. When I go on a trip (whether for stock or personal) I like to travel as light as possible. The 90/f4 is about the same size and weight as the 50 cron. For me that's just perfect for a lens I will not want to use as a primary focal length. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger_michel Posted February 2, 2004 Author Share Posted February 2, 2004 i was in the thick of all of the contentious CM posts. i was hoping that with a few more weeks of use, some of the early adopters (and perhaps others) would have more to say. i read the pop photography piece, as well as irwin's review and a mini review in chasseur d'images. i was hoping for some actual field reports. the pop photography bench tests were better IMO before they changed their methodology (a stupid idea anyway since it makes comparisons between old and new tests impossible). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugon Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 found a review of a CM concluding: 3,5 star out of 5 Pros: -Summarit lens -quiet operation -no frills -SCA adapter Cons: -Manual focus -AF helplight -price too high -camera looks oldfashioned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay_. Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 <<The hood point is a good one. Notwithstanding the fact that it does seem a bit of a tight fit to get it on and off, it is also of ridiculous proportions compared to the lens. It does mount in reverse on the lens but I have chosen to leave my hood in the box the lens came with and take my chances with flare>> An excellent point which I emphasize every time some genius suggests the "skinny" T-E as a "compact travel lens" compared to the current Elmarit which is a better performer. And in fact leaving the hood off a T-E the chances of flare are between 99 and 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger_michel Posted February 2, 2004 Author Share Posted February 2, 2004 as stated, the thin T-E is a flare monster. a proper hood is really a good idea. however, for people who are using it strictly for the sake of compactness, i will share the observation that a little shading goes a long way with this lens. i mounted a filter with deep threads (B+W old style) and then a step up ring (forget to what, but nothing extreme). the lens is still very compact, and the flare performance is much improved. a hood is better, but you get a lot of bang for your buck with this arrangement. i think the last element is unusually close to the end of the barrel with this lens (i.e. the thin T-E). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george_shihanian Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Interesting that in Leica Fotografie International (Dec/Jan) issue, Erwin Puts reports on the CM. The report, IMO, is complete B.S. (For those of you around the world who may not be familiar with that slang, it's the substance that comes out of the south end of a northbound bull). Of course he loves almost everything about it, but also mentions signifigant vignetting and "ghost images". Sh*t, a 40mm that suffers from severe vignetting?! I can see it in an inexpensive 28mm, but a $1000 40mm?! There's two photos in the article depicting the vignetting, and all I can say is that it looks one thousand times worse than you'll get with a 20 year old used $40 Olympus XA. Anyone that sees those photos and still buys this camera has got to get a checkup from the neck up. There's other criticism in there too, with regard to the autofocus accuracy, but he still reccommends this camera! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob haight Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 The CM is a film point and shoot isn't it. That market is really flat. Almost all new point and shoot sales are digital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george_shihanian Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 You're right about film P&S being yesterday's news. Once again, Leica is much too late out of the gate. That race has already been run. Leica is marketing it as a quality alternative for when you can't take your regular M camera along. But I thought all along they marketed the M as being small enough to take along all the time. Go figure. I guess they have to try and create a market for it, since one doesn't exist any longer in the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brien_m Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Although the market maybe small, I don't know why it is so difficult for people to understand (even if they don't agree) why these CM like cameras have a following. The rationale is not that complex. Sorry but for some people, the M and other similar cameras, are not small enough (or light enough, or convenient enough) for a carry everywhere camera, if photography is not the intended purpose of the outing. Hey I would love Leica M someday but it would never be my carry everywhere camera. I like to have a camera in case I happen to see something interesting, but I don't always want to carry a "hand bag" or a cool "hip pouch". These little cameras still provide a lot of flexibility, deliver amazing results and are truly discrete (don't kid yourself, a guy walking around with a black Leica M still looks almost as conspicuous as someone with a moderately sized SLR - that myth was true marketing genius). I'll concide on noise, but personally I've been in relatively few situations that required complete silence, and I can't really complain about the T or T3. It is a niche market with no relevance to the consumer digital P&S market. Isn't that what Leica does, focusses on niche markets, and gets people to pay way more than the items comparative worth? Unfortunately the CM is overkill. Their mistake is not having the camera assembled in Asia which would have made no difference (or maybe even improved reliability) and saved a few hundred off the retail. Having the highest prices labour force in the world doesn't come without trade-offs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george_shihanian Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 It's not just the highest labor costs, it's more than that. It's not just a desire to turn a tidy profit, it's a desire to rape the buyer. There _may_ be a niche market right now, but it won't be there for long. And for a "carry everywhere" camera just to have something with you, I'm sorry, I'm not using a $1000 P&S for that duty, I'm using something less expensive for the time I may "cook" it in my car during the summer _because_ it's a take-everywhere camera and I forgot it was there; or if it gets stolen out of my coat when i hang the coat in a restaurant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay_. Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 << i will share the observation that a little shading goes a long way with this lens. i mounted a filter with deep threads (B+W old style) and then a step up ring (forget to what, but nothing extreme). the lens is still very compact, and the flare performance is much improved. >> That flies in the face with just about every report by owners of that lens, who exclaim that even the rubber hood it was supplied with (deeper and more shading than your filter-ring arrangement)is insufficient, and that the 12575 is essential. Personally I own the "fat" T-E and don't find that it flares much at all, but most of the time I do use the 12575 anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brien_m Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Whether you might not want it as a carry everywhere camera for $1000 is irrelavent to the point I'm making. I don't have a problem understanding your (or others) rationale. Contrary to your own personal opinion, you do acknowledge that the M is being marketed as a carry everywhere camera (which would be $1500-$2000 minimum easy). I'm just pointing out I find it interesting some people can't understand there might be a niche market for these high end P&S cameras, which differs significantly from the standard P&S market. Honestly, I really don't care, but you seem to think you have insight into a market you don't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger_michel Posted February 2, 2004 Author Share Posted February 2, 2004 can't speak for other people's results -- although, as i said, i was talking about remediation, not elimination of flare. it's a $5 recommendation (less if you own a few step ups already). easy and painless to try. a T-E with a linhof compendium may be the only way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno_menilli Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Roger I believe that C/V make a nice small round lens hood for their 75mm lens which may be just the compromise needed for the T/Elmarit. I plan to get one for my recently purchased fat T/E. Regards Bruno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_mcbride Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 No one is more dedicated to his Leica M cameras than I am but even I will admit that a Leica M is not a carry-everywhere camera. May I be forgiven for my sacrilege, but when I need a small, concealable, quiet camera with an exceptionally sharp 35mm lens, I bring along my black Olympus Stylus Epic camera. It keeps getting the job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger_michel Posted February 2, 2004 Author Share Posted February 2, 2004 my mouth is agape, but i have no breath to scream. just a long silent psychic convulsion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george_shihanian Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Graham, If you'd go back and read what i wrote then I'd hope you'd not find it necessary to insult me. I said that _Leica_ touted the "M' as being so small you could slip it into a pocket and take it with you. *I* know that's marketing B.S. I was just stating what _they_ said. I can't stand people like you on this forum that think that their opinion is the last word on everything and no one has the right to disagree, and, if they do, they're somehow less intelligent than you. Bug off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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