4x5 worth it even if you don't have a darkroom?

[kevin_dean]

Sorry another 4x5 newbie question, is it worthwhile going down the

LF path even if you don't have darkroom facilities? I don't have any

room for a darkroom in my old terrace house, but would like to get

into 4x5 for landscape work. So do any of you have your developing

and printing done elsewhere and do you find it a viable proposition?

[Sandeha Lynch]

I do it in the kitchen. Large size changing bag > tube development > and scan negs. It's very economical for small batches of b&w.

[oskar_ojala]

You can do color, scan the stuff and having it printed at a professional lab or by yourself. Even BW could be done digitally, though developing yourself is still a good choice for BW (and that can be done with quite minimal facilities.)

[richard_ilomaki]

Kevin

 

Yes! B&W and colour film can be developed in a small bathroom, perhaps with a bit of black cloth for light proofing or as noted with a black changing bag.

 

Enlargers for LF are bigger than those for 35mm and would be a tight squeeze in a kitchen or bathroom, so scanning is a viable option. One can not take full advantage of LF without the control offered by developing the fim one's self, at least for B&W.

 

I have been in darkrooms where you could reach out and touch all 4 walls without taking a step. Give it a try.

 

Cheers

[gary_ferguson1]

Kevin, what's your final objective?

 

An inkjet, a traditional silver print, very large prints or A4/A3's, black & white, colour? The answer's a bit different in each case.

[kevin_dean]

My final objective would be to have digital scans so that I can self print A3, but as I came through the 35mm slide route via 645 mf, I have never done any developing of my own, now I use an Oly E1 digi slr for all my general shooting, but I am being drawn too LF for landscape work as I love the depth in LF photos.

[michael_young3]

See if a Jobo CPE2 with lift and their 2509N reel fits in your budget. Maybe $300 on eBay, or $500 + $300 + $60 new for the processor, lift kit, and tank and reel. Its attributes are consistent temperature for color, consistent agitation, and frugal use of chemistry: 270 ml per load of 6 sheets. 5L kits of C41 or E6 are about $60 to $80. Capacity is 48 sheets per liter; half that for one-shot use. For B&W, I use 125 ml of XTOL stock solution per load of 6; a 5 L pack is $10. Commercial development cost is $2 per sheet, color or B&W.

 

The reason to buy the Jobo and develop it yourself at home is availability of service, and faster consistently high quality results. Cost accounting has to place some value on that for the investment to make sense. On a strict per unit cost basis, break even on a $300 used processor is 240 sheets of color negatives assuming one shot use of chemistry at $60/5L. That's about a year's worth of semi active amateur shooting. In that time, you would have spent $600 in film and chemicals, for a total cost of $1000 in film and processing. If you buy the processor immediately, your cost in subsequent years will be roughly half that: $500. If you pay for commercial processing, your costs remain at $1000 per year. If you buy the equipment new, break even is about 3 years of similar activity level. B&W, of course, if far far less costly, and pays back much more quickly.

 

I place a very high value on immediate, high quality 1 hour processing. The investment made sense without considering equipment amortization.

[gary_ferguson1]

Kevin, you're in luck!

 

4x5 colour negative ISO 400 quickloads and a flat bed scanner give a good balance between convenience, simplicity and economy.

 

ISO 400 will increase the shutter speed to minimise foliage blur with small LF apertures, negative colour film delivers ten stops of latitude that can be flexibly converted to black and white if you so wish, and a quickload holder with quickload film makes the process foolproof even without a darkroom. Scan with a cheap flatbed to deliver a file that prints at 300 dpi on A3 and you'll have richly toned, fully detailed, grainless images.

[lachaine]

It certainly is worth using a 4x5 camera even if you don't have a darkroom, especially if you plan on doing colour - but it's not going to be cheap to have the processing and printing done well. Black & white really requires doing darkroom work, in my opinion, to get the best out of it, in any format, however, there are workarounds, including the ability to use Polaroid films for final output (also not cheap in 4x5 format). On the other hand, if your intention is not to have conventional prints made but rather to have the negative or slide scanned for final output as a digital print, I don't think you will be gaining much over smaller formats when you consider the considerable added costs of working in 4x5. If you are doing black & white, you can make do with a very minimal darkroom (ie. an occasional bathroom setup), and you can even just do contact prints (no need for an enlarger at all), and then scan the print if you like. A good 4x5 print is pretty good for scanning on any cheap flatbed scanner when the purpose is for web display... but then, if you do that, you have to figure you are using large format for the pleasure of the process itself, rather than for picture quality alone, as you won't be gaining much over even good quality 35mm.

[ken_lee11]

No darkroom here either. Was doing 4x5 b&w sheet film in trays in a spare bathroom, and scanning to digital prints. Recently tried a Jobo 3010 with manual roller and love it. Still scanning to digital prints.

[jbq]

Yes. I use quickloads (mostly provia), have them processed at my local pro lab and scan on an Epson 3200. Printing is done on Epson or Lightjet.

[bob fowler]

I use a Unicolor Unidrum and motor base at the kitchen sink to process 4X5 and 5X7 B&W film. To keep peace in the household, I put the motor base in an 11X14 tray to catch any spills before they can stain the countertop. All of my film developers are used as a one-shot (HC-110, Microdol-X 1:3, Perceptol 1:3, Folgers coffee, etc.) My negatives are scanned with either an Epson 2450 or an Agfa T-1200. Final output is done at a local lab that uses an Agfa d-lab 2 and large Epson inkjet printers.

[jonathan_bundick]

Just started doing B&W developing again about 8 months ago. I'm experimenting with Delta 100 and HP5 developed in D76. I made some home made tubes out of PVC pipe material, and am developing in a windowless bathroom, then scan with an Epson 3200. Files are uploaded to an internet service for printing to small sizes, up to 8x10. This route could be used for prints at least up to 16x20 with very good results.

 

For 4x5 color, I'm still runnin through my old stock of E100S, and SW. Develop at a local pro lab, scan on the 3200, and print via the internet service for small sizes, and larger, i.e. 16x20 and up go for lightjet prints.

 

YOu can get great results this way.

Enjoy.

[oskar_ojala]

For A3 a flatbed scanner such as the Epson 2450/3200/4870 models are enough and you can use color negative or slide film. Quality will be very good.

[bishop_vc]

There's always Polaroid Type 55 as well. You get a nice negative and you can get away with using a sink as a darkroom.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

[nikos peri]

Sinar F2<br>

Changing bag, Jobo daylight tank, kitchen sink for B&W<br>

Lab for E6 and C41<br>

Epson Perfection 4870<br>

A huge computer to deal with 500Mb files from those large film areas.<br>

Lab digital prints or Cibachrome<br>

Wet lab prints for B&W<p>

Perfect setup IMO, go for it.

[sjmurray]

No darkroom either. I do black and white in a Jobo 2500 tank with 2509n sheet film holders I got used for $30. I process rolling the tank on a homemade roller base. Scan negs with Epson 2450 and adjust in photoshop. Make 8x10 prints on inkjet and larger ones I intend to job out. I make beautiful prints this way. I did wet prints for years and now don't have the proper basement for it.

[cxc]

If you have the money, there is nothing wrong with paying a lab to process your film. They can do anything you can do, and probably better and cleaner. There are plenty of labs that do mail order, which is particularly easy with Ready/QuickLoads. I like Calypso in San Jose, CA.

 

In the divide and conquer spirit, it's not a bad idea to take on only a few new things at a time. Get the hang of the camera first, darkroom later, if ever, is a good approach.

[edward_kimball]

Colour developing is fine to shop out - especially E6. Scanning and printing colour trannies produce good results. It would be much cheaper if you could scan yourself. I am still saving up for an Epson scanner. Having a lab wet print one of your B&W negatives is one of the most frustrating experiences in the known universe.

[leica ron]

You have a house !!!

 

I have a one bed apartment, process my B&W with a Jobo CPP-2 with lift set up in the bath. I use an Expert 3010 drum to produce consistent, evenly developed negs.

[ian_greant]

When I first started shooting my 4x5 $6 bucks a shot for E6 (film + processing) seemed like so much money. Now it ain't such a big deal. I'm not any richer I just realize the value of a big piece of film.

 

As for the scanning/digital work flow.

 

1) Yes, you can sneak into the game with a much less expensive scanner than with a small format.

 

2) Maximum size is dependent a lot on your working methods, what printer, and of course, personal expectations. Recently for a client I printed a 24x20 from a 6x7 C41 neg that he felt was the near equal to what he was getting from the darkroom. (Epson 3200 scanner, one of the Kodak large output digital printers)

[don_mason1]

Kevin, One home processed 4x5 neg, is worth 10, sent out to a lab. If ya have a bathroom, you have a darkroom.... wow, no options for a smiley face here??????

Don Mason

PS I am fairly new to 4x5. WOW !!! that neg is like a space shuttle shot!!! It is HUGE !!!

[don_mason1]

Kevin, I moved, and my darkroom is in a storage shed (except for most of it, LOL, I have the Omega D2 here, so I can at least view the negs). I find that most pro labs will process a sheet of 4x5 B&W for a dollar, still. ya got the neg, then can print later, or send out.

Don

[gone nomad]

It depends on what you want to do. The spare bedroom in my apartment is set up as a darkroom. However, I used to process everything in my bathroom. I only use the darkroom for black and white. If you have a bathroom or a closet you'll be just fine without a darkroom. Several companies make dayilght tanks for 4x5 sheet film. These work great without a darkroom. I would suggest the combi 4x5 tank as it is a bit more user friendly than some of the others.

 

 

When it comes to color I use Velvia or E100VS. I don't bother to process E6 at home any more (even though I have an ATL2). I just drop the box into a fedex envelope and send it to photocraft in boulder CO. 1.20 a sheet is fine by me. If all you were planning to shoot was transparency film a darkroom wouldn't do you much good at all. Many people nowadays scan the transparency and print output to a lightjet. Using quickloads or loading film in a changing bag in this scenario would work just fine.

 

Good luck with your LF photography.