large format cameras, semi-rant

[the_macman]

Why large format camera bodies (without lenses) are so expensive? I mean, on a scale from

0 to 10 they score about 2 when talking about engineering and complexity of design, and

I'm being generous. You got a plate with a hole, that's for the lens, and you got a cassette

holder in the back, bellow between the two. The whole concern is have those two perfectly

aligned... how hard is that?

 

Yeah, I know, smaller market makes prices go up, but I played and opened a Sinar and

quite frankly, it's shameless steal.

[richard_milner2]

They are hand made in very small numbers. The labour costs are high. The parts are mostly individually produced because the volume of production is too small to allow a production line to be set up. Since they sell mainly to professionals, the initial cost is not so important.

 

You don't have to buy new. There are secondhand bodies and lenses.

[robert_davis2]

You can buy a used LF camera for $100 if you want. If you think that new LF cameras are over priced you could try making and selling them-)

[jbq]

I paid $675 for a Sinar F in very good condition, with normal and wide bellows and a lensboard. Per square inch of film, it's like paying $50 for a 20-year-old SLR, not the end of the world.

 

The thing is amazingly well build, reasonably light, and the level of control is hard to beat (rise, tilt and swing on both standards).

 

Actually, alignment is the least of my concern - one of the big reasons to get large format (or one of the big requirements to get nice pictures) is to be able to put them out of alignment. Most of my pictures have at least some amount of rise and tilt, and I've used swings on a few.

[harry_akiyoshi]

I bought my 4x5 monorail for a couple of hundred on the auction site. It does what I need it to do.

 

A lot of large format cameras are sold to enthusiastic hobbyists, and the use of the camera is part of their hobby. A Sinar or Arca-Swiss camera is simply a joy to use, and people pay more for that feeling of solidity and precision.

 

Note, however, that most pros are buying stuff like Cambos and Toyos -- bare-bones, functional cameras that do basically the same things as the expensive models at a fraction of the cost.

 

Inexpensive large-format cameras ARE out there; saying that all large format cameras are expensive because Linhof or Sinar cameras are expensive is sort of like saying that all 35mm cameras are expensive because of Leica and Contax.

[yance_marti]

From what I have seen, Sinar bodies are very well built. Just because something looks simple doesn't mean that it is not well designed or well constructed.

[Jochen_S]

It's the same as with bicycles. You can spend a fortune on a bunch of Campagnolos finest whatever in a carbon fiber frame or could pick one from a junk pile.

There are several websites teaching how to - pardon me - "jigsaw" your own camera.

If you look close on some new enlargers you can easily guess why used Linhofs are worth their prices.

[steve_levine]

High end,yaw free, view cameras are precisely made with exacting,repeatable movements.These are not easily made or engineered.If all you want is a 4x5 box,you can get a basic mono rail that lacks repeatable settings or yaw free design for $100-200.

[pete_andrews10]

"The whole concern is have those two perfectly aligned... how hard is that? "

 

Ever tried to realign and adjust a monorail that's got worn or knocked out of shape? It's not as easy as you might think.

And then you've got to be able to shift and twist the front and back standards at will, and then have them pop back into perfect parallelism again!

 

Having said all that. If you have a problem with the price, just don't buy Sinar, and don't buy from a big name dealer. There are secondhand monorail or technical cameras to be found at very reasonable prices, though some might not look very pretty, or they might need a bit of work. Save your money for a decent lens, which after all is the bit that actually counts.

[the_macman]

I don't have a problem with the price, I have a problem with the logics behind it. I'm not at

all interested in buying LF. My courious mind demanded some explanations. I've been long

enough in photography to realize that precision-made things cost money.

 

I don't see much implication of the manufacturing costs. I just think it's an artificially-risen

and kept price range, just as Leica... simply because the simplicity of LF doesn't justify

such high costs in manufacturing. Small market and high costs? For instance, Leaf cameras

used to fall in that cateogry, but certainly not LF cameras. You probably got roughly the

same size market, but 1/1000th of the R&D and obviously lower manufacturing costs.

 

I got more "hey, don't mess with LF!" attitudes than civilized answers. Thanks a lot to all

those in the latter category.

[carina]

"...I don't have a problem with the price, I have a problem with the logics behind it. I'm not at all interested in buying LF. My courious mind demanded some explanations. I've been long enough in photography to realize that precision-made things cost money..."

 

If you know precision things cost money then, what, exactly, is the reason for the question? Seems bizarre to care about something if you have no interest in it -- and you state you have no interest in buying the stuff. If you dont have a problem with the price -and you clearly say you dont- then you can hardly have a problem with the logic behind it (one entails the other; that is what logic is/does...). That logic, as should be obvious, is based on the market -- capitalism. New/Better/Cheaper products correct markets rather quickly. Everyone who has never invented anything, nor designed anything, nor made anything, nor marketed anything, nor sold anything, usually has ALL the answers! Why not prove the photographic world wrong, and make a killing selling your own LF gear? This is not an uncivilized answer, but a rather obvious one (you wont try, and if you did, you wouldnt make much if any money - and you probably know that, or ought to). Used LF cameras are actually a steal, FOR THE MONEY, and all factors considered, new prices are not completely out of line.

[les]

Why is it that a cor cost $10 to $20 per kilogram, and the aircraft $100 to $300 per kilogram ?

The level of technology is approximately same (with indication on automotive industry, yes !). What is different is the production rate.

A car factory turns out half a million cars every year. An aircraft factory makes about a hundred every year (mind it, these numbers just indicate the comparison between production rates).

The main cost component is the cost of tooling and machinery.

If a machine is used 24 hrs a day in a continuous cycle and makes one part every minute, the cost will be 1/60 compared of the situation when it makes only one part every hour.

 

To machine a $5 part a day you still need a $20,000 device.

Try to figure out what kind of machinery and equipment you would need to make a camera body (simple one, like the LF you mentioned). Try to identify all the processes that need to be used (like heat treatment , surface coating, bonding, measurement and control devices etc. etc).

Then tell us that the LF cameras are expensive...

[the_macman]

>>>> Seems bizarre to care about something if you have no interest in it

 

I try to keep my interest awake in anything, including things I'd never need... such as

women's tampons variations. Curiosity is part of a fun life :) A concept which is hard to

grasp for some.

[the_macman]

>>>>> Why is it that a cor cost $10 to $20 per kilogram, and the aircraft $100 to $300

per kilogram ? The level of technology is approximately same (with indication on

automotive industry, yes !).

 

Extremley fallacious example. Massive R&D, both in cars and airplanes is an ongoing

thing. You have to feet that via your selling price.

 

R&D in LF stopped a few decades ago...

[the_macman]

feeD that.

[cole_petersburg]

R&D costs in aerospace are definitely far higher than those in the automotive industry. A huge amount of materials engineering and research goes into making an airplane: Nickel superalloys for the turbine blades, aluminum alloys for the skin, magnesium castings, titanium-silicon carbide composites at $11,000 per kg, etc. It's similar with bicycles; they didn't invent a new shape, just a new material.<BR>

Automobiles, however, have strict cost requirements due to huge demand. Therefore they are made of steel, and use stupid, stupid pistons.<BR>

I doubt that LF cameras use exotic metals, and the mechanical design complexity is probably about the same as with a 35mm SLR. The difference is the economy of scale, plus, the guys who build it probably shoot LF! They need the money to buy film. Nobody's going to build a corporate empire on LF, so they might as well pay the workers a good wage. There's no shame in that.<BR>

[douglas_green1]

I bought a nearly mint Calumet 4x5 camera for around $170 used, and a couple of lenses for around $350 more (a 240mm Schneider Symmar S in Copal shutter for $260, and a 135mm Ektar in Compur shutter for $90).

 

I might very well upgrade the camera as I get comfortable with Large Format. But I hardly think that $170 for a workable if basic Large Format camera in nearly new condition is costly.

[richard_milner2]

Here's an economic explanation.

 

LF cameras cost what they do because that is the price that allows the manufacturer to maximise his profits by balancing his production cost against the realistic selling price in the market.

 

If the price dropped to half, he wouldn't sell twice as many cameras, because demand is limited by other factors such as ease of use and so on. So why would he drop the price?

[kelly_flanigan1]

Working 4x5 Speed Graphics; with graphloc back; and a 127mm F4.7 Kodak Ektar are all over Ebay. I bought yet another for 145 dollars. You could buy a dozen of these; instead of a Mac computer. The Ektar is really a 3x4 camera lens; but was "pressed":) into usage for press cameras. The several I have here all resolve about 80 to 90 line pairs/mm; in the center; and to a way low low 15 at the far edges.. These cameras are nice to make a big poster with; there is alot of negative area. With a wider angle lens; the tilts; rise; and offset of the lens board can be used; or the drop bed feature. These are old press cameras; that do have some limited movements. Get a view camera that can be tied into a knot; and duh; the costs do go up. <BR><BR>The vast majority of Large format cameras made were not expensive view cameras; but the press camera; the mainstay of newspapers; the most popular camera of the century. <BR><BR>You are focusing on the MAC type "cameras"; made in smaller numbers; instead of the "common mans" P4 PC "type press cameras"; from Office Depot; Walmart; Staples; Office Max.<BR><BR>Decades ago; the used Sinars were a few hundred; and the zillions of used Speed Graphics were as low as 50 bucks. <BR><BR>If you use a view camera alot; the better brands will cause less frustration.<BR><BR>My brother bought a used Speed Graphic ; for 20 dollars; this was when gas was 20 cents; so todays used Ebay deals are about the the same cost; or less; compared to gasoline. <BR><BR>In roll film holders; the cheaper ones will have more film flatness issues. The better horseman; for maybe 600 bucks; is alot better...

[les]

Dear MACMAN,

I was not talking about high-tech fancy components. I was talking about simple structure, aluminium alloy sheet metal/machined.

The alloys have been around since WWII or shortly after, the analysis methods usually refer to NASA research done in early 50's, the riveting/bolting techniques have been mastered before I was born.

 

BTW it is good that most of the folks still believe firmly in technical excellence and high level of research in aircraft industry ;).

 

I have spent the last 25 years doing aircraft design and structure analysis and I believe that I know how it works here.

 

You can buy a 1" bolt for $0.50 in a hardware shop, but if you want it to have certain grip length (not on the shelf currently), heat treated and inspected properly - you look anywhere between $500 and $1000 per bolt. No research here, just tooling/processing/labor cost per production unit, pure and simple.

[kelly_flanigan1]

2024 Aluminum I believe was called 24; or T24 during WW2..We have a pre WW2 heater in the house; a portable job made from 24-S; sheet aluminum.......The stronger 7XXX series was used the replace the overloaded stringers; etc on the B-29's for Atomic bomb duty. One of my ancient Alcoa brochures I have covers this. The Washington Monument apex/Cap is made of Aluminum; made in 1884....There is a German pre WW1 U-1 submarine in the Deutsches Museum; Krupp; built 1906; of aluminum. When I saw the U-1; I first thought it looked like a darn hokey submarine; too basic...Then during some difficult photography; I read some dates; and freaked out that this was a PRE WW1 subamarine; made of aluminum....