Canon or Nikon?

[colleendonovan]

Okay, i've read EVERYTHING there is to read about the Canon 10D and

the Nikon D100. What I really want is the Canon EOS-1Ds but my

husband says 'no'. I haven't gone and actually held either one of

them in my hand, but I would like to know from people who use them

why they like either one. And maybe someone who's used both could

tell me what the biggest differences are (to them). I swore up and

down that I would never use digital, but i need a better camera than

my Minolta Xtsi and I can't see buying another film camera when

everything seems like it's going digital anyway. Besides I think it

would be much easier to use digital just because of where I live. I

can send files faster than actual film. Thanks for any

suggestions!!!!

[wedding-photography-denver]

Hi Colleen, I don't have a 1Ds But I do have the Rebel, 10D and 1d2. Of all there are available for the different types of photography, The 10D in my opinion will go far for the money. If you can step up the pressure on the Hubby, 1d2 is by far the best for my taste. 1Ds, although an excellent camera, is now way too expensive for the job ($7500.00 vs. 4300 for th 1D2). Just my thoughts.

 

I have just posted a new event shot in my portfolio. This was cropped a little and then posted. The dancing girl is really moving (like brides tend to etc.), and I have noe trouble getting sharp shots with this new cam.

 

Depends on your uses but the 1D2 is great. The 10D would be my second choice. The Rebel is very like the 10D and a lot lighter, I found most things it does very well (when you lug it around for 5-6 hours it becomes a pleasure for the weight or lack thereof).

 

Be interested to hear what your needs are?

[majid]

I have actually bought both, the 10D for myself and the D100 for my father. The 10D offers significantly better image quality than the D100 at same ISO, and I prefer it by far to the D100.

 

The new D70 is superior to the D100 in most respects, and significantly cheaper. The 10D and D70 are competitive in many ways, neither has a distinct edge - the 10D has better construction, a better RAW mode and a true glass pentaprism, the D70 has a faster X-Sync, faster sustained JPEG mode and a spotmeter. Ironically, the 10D has better compatibility with manual focus Nikkors - it can at least do stop-down metering, when the D70 can't meter with them at all (on the other hand, the D70 offers focusing assistance for MF lenses). Reportedly, you can find the 10D discounted to $1200 or so, so they are comparable in price as well.

 

You should make your decision on the basis of the Canon or Nikon lens and flash systems, and which one covers your needs better. If you do a lot of architectural or sports photography, Canon's superior tilt-shift and IS telephotos will win the day. Nikon has better macros, including a unique macro zoom lens.

[mark_lloyd1]

Colleen,

 

As mentioned above the decision is not as simple as a manufacturer

choice.

 

1st and foremost you need to decide what you want the camera to deliver

in terms of print size. This is important as it will help you to decide

what sensor size you need.

 

Secondly you need to decide on a system. What do you use currently?

 

What lenses do you have?

 

What dedicated flash etc..?

 

Thirdly you need to go try each out and see which feels best to you.

 

In all honesty the differences in image quality between manufacturers for

similar models are very subjective and most customers will never notice

them. So make your choice by trying each system. Go hire them for a

couple of days.

 

Once you have chosen a manufaturer basically you will quickly be locked

into that system as the investment in lenses etc.. will quickly out way

the body cost.

 

As for the 1ds cost question.

 

firstly this camera has just been discounted in the UK and reduced by

£800 so I would expect the same in the US, shop around.

 

If you expect to offer large prints then depending on size you may need

this resolution to offer the quality.

 

If you are used to paying for film processing and transfer to CD at a pro

lab then you will know this is not cheap.

 

When I worked out the cost of a 1DS to my business it quickly became

apparent that the saving in processing and film costs would pay for the

camera in no time.

 

It worked out that just buying and processing to CD 200-250 rolls of

film would equal the cost of the camera, so it would pay for itself very

quickly.

 

If you still can't justifly this cost then look at the new pro 8mp cameras

which will still give reasonable enlargements.

 

In the end the choice is up to you but if you are serious about pro work

then cost should not be the main factor, your choice should be driven by

your requirements.

 

Remember you will need backups of everything so you could use the

cheaper prosumer models for backup bodies.

 

Good luck.

 

M,

[fotografz]

I am into Canon Digital up to my eyeballs. I'd advise waiting just a little longer. It is highly

likely the 10D will be replaced this September. The 1DMKII by all accounts is a killer

camera (mine arrives early next week), so if you can spring for the cost ($4,500. unless

you know someone), and even find one not spoken for, it is a great solution.

 

But speaking frankly, where I you, I'd hunt down a lightly used Nikon D1X and back it up

with a used F-100. Both are highly proven rugged pro level cameras that provide more

than enough for wedding work. I used a D1X for 2 years until going full frame with the

Canon 1Ds. Frankly, the 1Ds made some difference, but not that much with my wedding

work. The requirements for wedding shots just aren't as demanding as my commercial

1Ds stuff is.

 

Here is one other consideration: Many Nikon lenses still provide a real aperture ring. The

Canon lenses do not (you control the aperture with a wheel on the camera). Those specific

Nikon lenses also have a more traditional feel in terms of manual focusing, where many

Canon lenses are sloppier feeling IMO.

[colleendonovan]

Thanks for all your answers! They've all given me more of what I would like to know before I buy a camera!

 

Michael, your picture is great and it's pictures like these that have helped me decide to go digital! Thanks for your suggestions. I will be taking mostly Senior and family photos and I have my sights set on wedding photography. Weight is no big deal, especially since I'm so buff (haha). It is something to think about! Thanks!

 

Fazal, thanks for the technical acvice!!! Those are some of the things I've been wondering about! I'm glad you bought both so I wouldn't have to!!!:) I will be shooting a lot of RAW (I think) so that is good advice! Thanks for your comparison!!

 

Mark, I just have a minolta XTsi and a couple of Quantaray zoom lenses (slow ones). I have a PSZ-1 flash which I really like except that it doesn't have rear curtain sync(because my camera doesn't, I think). Myhusband bought it for me our first Christmas and didn't realize I would get so into photography. I would like to get a 50/1.4 and a better faster zoom. I've looked at the 550ex flash for canon. I need one that I can control the flash output. Cost isn't the biggest factor in which camera to buy, but it is there. THank you for your suggestions and advice!

 

Marc, This is gonna make me look dumb, but I didn't even know you could control aperature on some lenses! On my camera its a dial too!

Now i really don't know what to do because I was going to decide this week and now I have to think about waiting until September. AGH!!! It's so far away! Thanks for your advice!

[rich_dutchman1]

Canon or Nikon...the debate continues. Either brand is fine. Why don't you rent both and see what you like best? Both the D100 and 10D are about equal in their benefits and problems. Both companies make great glass and speedlights. Keep in mind that Canon lenses are less expensive. I'm not sure what you are shooting, but neither camera is good for action (both have slow AF and FPS - buy a 1D or D2H for sports, weddings or PJ). Don't feel bad about the 1Ds. You're better off with a 4 to 6mp camera than a 10mp, as its files are too big to manage, and you'd need to buy a faster computer. Finally, if you have clients, then budget for two bodies. The 10D and D100 are only rated at 30K shutter cycles. I blew my D100 shutter after 10 months during an event, and it was replaced by Nikon within two weeks. I have a D2H as a second body.

[rich_dutchman1]

Also, Colleen, rethink your opinion about shooting in RAW. I know all the technical reasons for using it, but I only use it selectively. The reason is that you have to convert huge files. Try doing this for 800-1000 images after a wedding - it takes a very long time. Large jpegs make wonderful big prints. I have interpolated files to 20x30 at 150 dpi coverted to Tiff (yes, pro labs require 150dpi - not 300), and they are gorgeous. I only use RAW for long exposures (i.e., 1 second+) or really strange mixed lighting conditions where the PRE white balance may be fooled, and noise may become an issue.

[fotografz]

Ahhh, not to go beyond Colleen's original question, but processing RAW files isn't always

the drudgery it can appear to be at first glance. If you set the camera to continuous

numbering, it's easy to segregate whole sequences in similar light, correct light temp and

levels and then apply batch processing to all the selected group.

 

Likewise, if using PSCS you can select Automate > Contact Sheet II while in the browser

and PS will put all of your RAW shots onto contact sheets while you do something else.

 

I'm an inherently lazy person when it comes to repetitious tasks, so I search out the no-

brainer, "go watch TV while it works", solutions. If you have 600 images and a slow

computer, then you can watch a TV movie ; -)

 

Here's an example of a contact sheet (actual size 13X19) where I opened a couple of RAW

shots to crop them and then sent them all to > Automate > Contact Sheet II right from the

browser. Automate > Contact Sheet II made 6 sheets like this one without me being there.

Afterwards I sent all 6 to the printer, and then goofed off here on this forum.<div></div>

[rich_dutchman1]

Marc, you can also open the CS browser, save your settings in the RAW convertor for one image, and load the changes to the rest. However, this all takes time, and I'd prefer not to do any converting, since it's not necessary to begin with.

[fotografz]

Well I guess we just disagree Rich. IMO shooting j-pegs at a wedding is like shooting slide

film instead of negs. Not much latitude for exposure error. But as usual, different strokes

for different folks.

[colleendonovan]

Oh man!! How much would you guys charge me to rent you for a few months so you can show me how to do all this stuff? The only thing I worry about with digital is all the different file stuff and when to use RAW and when not to, etc... I can get around on a computer, but my husband usually has to show me first and I hate that!!! I want to be able to just sit down and do what I want to. Anyways, fast computers and stuff are never too far away at least. My hubby is the manager of a Staples store and he worked at Cirtcuit City for 10 years. Marc, I don't think I can wait until September! What do you think will be the difference between this 10D and the new one??

[fotografz]

Colleen, if it all sounds confusing, you'd be right!

 

No, just kidding. It's the same kind of learning curve that photographers go through to

work in a darkroom. You can learn just enough, or get deeply into it.

 

There's no guarantee there will be a new 10D in Sept., it's just heavily rumored based on

Canon's relentless pace of introduction. It could be a major overhaul or a slight one. What

Canon has done in the past is to continuously improve the midrange D series AND lower

the price. The D-30 was 3.2 meg in a plastic body for $3,000., the D-60 jumped to 6 meg

and the price dropped to $2,200.; the D-10 included a metal body, improved AF and

sensor response AND the price dropped to $1,500. IMO, the manufacturers are funding

R&D with the consumer's impatience.

 

The trick is to buy something you can live with through a couple of "improvement" cycles.

 

IMO, the real hit to the pocket book of current D-60 and D-10 owners will come when the

midpriced DSLRs go full frame or 1.3X. I'd wager that time is not far off... and Canon will

most likely be the one to do it.

[colleendonovan]

Marc, it is confusing, but I'm up tp the challenge. It's fun to learn new things, I just get frustrated because I want to know everything NOW! Rich said the 10D won't be good for weddings. What do you think?

[fotografz]

I've used a 10D at a number of weddings and found it to be fine. They improved the AF

over the D60, but it isn't as fast as a EOS-1D or 1Ds or 1V. It's a good value IMO, if the

1DMKII is out of your price range.

 

In a recent thread many shooters here said they rarely made prints larger than 8X10, so

the resolution isn't an issue unless you crop something really, really severely.

 

The 10D shutter isn't up to the punishment that a EOS 1D can take, but I gather you aren't

shooting 3 weddings a week plus events, portraits and commercial work.

[colleendonovan]

No, I'm not shooting three weddings a week! I wish I was, but I'm just starting out and I haven't done much advertising yet either. I was thinking I would get the 10D and learn to use it very well, and hopefully at the same time earn enough to buy the 1DMKII. What would the world be like if we really got everything the moment we wanted it?? :) I looked at the resolution info and I'm not sure if I'm figuring it out right, yet. Do you happen to know what size you can enlarge to and still have it look good with the 10D? Like a Large/fine file. It says it's about 2.4 MB or 3072x2048. Is that only an 8x10? I guess I'm being optimistic and hoping I will start doing a lot of work in the near future and I don't want to buy something and find out after I've had it that it really doesn't do what I want it to. That has been the biggest frustration with my little minolta XTsi. The poor thing just doesn't do enough. With this digital camera I would at least like the option of being able to go bigger than an 8X10. You know what I mean? By the way, your wife is really pretty! I saw a picture of her in another thread. Thanks for answering all these questions!

[fotografz]

Colleen, do you have PhotoShop CS?

 

In PSCS there is a RAW developer which supports Canon 10D RAW file development. When

you open a 10D RAW file in this developer, you have the option to select resolution and

ppi size. PSCS does a fair job of "interpolating" the file up to a larger size for bigger

prints. Upsizing is best done from a 16 bit RAW file where the largest amount of RAW

information is available.

 

There are also other 3rd party "plug-ins" for PS-6, 7 or CS (8). Fred Miranda has developed

a number of camera specific "plug-ins" for the Canon 10D. One of them is a "Step

Interpolation" plug-in that works incredibly well. I've made 12"X18" prints using one of

these plug-ins and the results were quite acceptable. You just need a good file to begin

with. But that's true with any big enlargement.

 

Try visiting Fred's site. Click on forums and then wedding photographers. There are a

number of shooters there using the 10D.

 

Here are a couple of images to demonstrate. First the original:<div></div>

[fotografz]

Now a crop of the same image with the cropped area run through Fred Miranda's Step

Interpolation Plug-in. The FBI could ID this woman from this shot ; -)<div></div>

[colleendonovan]

Wow!! That is really amazing!! I do have PSCS, but haven't put it on the computer since I don't really do anything with it except play. I just need to get the camera and start using it so I can really figure out what I'm doing!! I really appreciate all your help! I'm printing out this thread so I can take it with me when I go to buy. Thanks so much!!

[fotografz]

Colleen, when you get the camera, immediately bench test it for AF accuracy. A few 10D

owners have complained about soft images which they attributed to AF backfocus. I did

that with mine and it was dead on. But it's good to test your gear when you first get it

anyway.

 

Here's a quick way to do that: Put the camera on a tripod. Set it for single AF. Use a cable

release (or set the camera on selftimer). Use your fastest lens like a 50/1.4. set at f/1.4.

Shoot a ruler squarely set at a 45 degree angle to the camera. Get as close to the ruler as

you can with your lens and still be able to focus on the 6" mark. Shoot using

both AF AND Manual focus (note which is which). If the 5" mark or 7" mark is sharper you

know there is a focus problem.

 

BTW, Fred's site is www.fredmiranda.com

[t._duane_jones]

Colleen,

 

I've been photographing weddings with Nikon cameras for over 6 years, and I will probably continue to use Nikon once I convert to digital. I have used the D100 for portrait/event work for awhile, and I shot with a D70 several weeks ago. If you're going the Nikon route, check out the D70 in addition to the D100. It is $500 less, has the 1005 pixel matrix metering, improved white balance, and alot of other features. It is built fairly well, but I guess I can't be too picky for $1000! It will also shoot a RAW + Jpeg file. The RAW files are compressed, but to my understanding, it is a lossless file. (Marc, do you know anything about this?) I'm thinking about buying a used D1x and a D70 for backup. By the way... a friend is shooting weddings with a pair of 10D's, and the quality of his work is great. I like the build and feel of the camera alot. Best of luck to you!

 

Duane

[colleendonovan]

Thanks Duane!! I am still going to look at the D100 just to make sure I know what I really want! I want to be one of those photographers who has every kind of camera and knows how to use all of them!! It's fun! Thanks for your advice!!

 

Mark, if I get the 10D I will be sure to check the AF. That's the kind of thing I want to know before I get a new camera! Thanks!

[wedding-photography-denver]

I have printed a 20x30 without any problem (Mpix.com) and the 16x20's I get are superb. If you have shot much film (35mm) and printed to this size from negs (200 asa or less), I dare say you are about to be adequately pleased/excited with the result.

 

I sugest thinking about your commitment to a system (Canon/Nikon) as your first step. I had nikon film (and a 5700 digicam) before going to Canon digital. I am very pleased with the switch.

 

If you would like, I can email you a full size 10D pic and you can have it to print and judge for yourself (be prepared to cope with a sudden urge to rush out and buy/use the 10D after printing).

 

Let me know....<div></div>

[fotografz]

The only caveat I would add to this discussion would be a warning concerning durability.

 

It isn't for nothing that these consumer level digital cameras are less expensive. A $1000.

6 meg DSLR is actually a $250. SLR with digital guts. The shutters are not designed for a

zillion exposures the way a Pro level camera is. Nor are many of the other components Pro

level in design or construction. Wedding duty is tough duty once you get your sales

pipeline flowing. Equipment failure isn't an option. IMO, they are back-up cameras at best.

That's why my initial advice was to search out a lightly used Nikon D1-X which is a well

tested (out in the real world) camera based on a more durable Nikon F-100 platform.

 

Bells and whistles are cool and fun, but I'd take toughness over some of the latest

innovations any day of the week. Just an opinion.

[ShunCheung]

I would be concerned about DSLR durability only if you are a full-time pro and really shoot a lot; in that case you probably wouldn't be asking this question here. I know a number of pro wedding photographers using the Canon EOS 10D, Nikon D100, etc. As long as you have backup equipment, those consumer-grade DSLRs are OK and can give you good results. One advantage of digital is instant feedback. Check your result frequently and you'll notice any camera failure quickly. Digital technology changes fast and you'll probably upgrade at least every 2, 3 years anyway. It is unlikely that you'll keep your high-end DSLR for 5, 10 years as it was in the film era.

 

You can get two Nikon D70 for less than $2000, cheaper than one D1x. And if you drop one D70 on a hard surface, you'll still have a spare. If you really shoot a lot, get the D1x/D100 or Canon 1Dii/10D combo.