Zeiss Glass in LTM

These seem quite scarce these days. What camera were these built for?

Was there a specific camera? Or were they built as after market glass

for Leica (and/or other camera) owners?

 

Also I once read that my 50MM Nikkor 1.4 in LTM is a Zeiss Sonnar

copy. Is this true?

I have a Zeiss Sonnar 5cm/2 in LTM. I checked with two gentlemen at the Zeiss Historical Society to make sure it is a lens originally made by Zeiss in LTM. It turned out to be one of only 200 made for Sweden in rteurn for raw materials (before the war). It looks as if the outside of the lens is an Elmar collapsible that was fitted with Zeiss optics (and made rigid). As for Sonnar copies, there are many of them out there. The Canon 50/1.5 is one of them and so is your Nikon 50/1.4. The Jupiter 3 (50/1.5) is also a Sonnar copy.

The LTM Zeiss lenses were built for Leica cameras. There were no other cameras with LTM mount until after World War II, when all German patents were invalidated as part of war reparitions. (Well, other than the ones built by the Allied powers during the war, but they weren't a target market for Zeiss!)

 

Yes, the Nikkor LTM 50/1.5 and 50/1.4 lenses were absolutely based on the Zeiss Sonnar lens. Same overall block diagram, 7 elements in three groups. Of course, particularly the 50/1.4 was a recomputed design.

 

Canon's LTM 50/1.5 is also a Sonnar clone.

 

Nikon's 50/2.0 LTM lens was a clone of the 50/2 Sonnar as well (6 elements in 3 groups).

 

The rear group of these Sonnar fast lenses is very demanding to manufacture, a group of three elements, cemented at very curved surfaces. Lots of precision required, hard to center accurately. Made for an expensive lens. That's why Canon worked so hard on double Gauss designs for their 50/1.9, 50/1.8, and 50/1.4 lenses. (When the Canon 50/18 was about $150 new, the 50/1.5 was about $200. Mid-1950's dollars, of course.)

Steve,

 

Here's what I know off-hand--or think I know. Zeiss made lenses in Leica thread mount

since the 1930s, at least, and into the 1950s. Cartier-Bresson used a Zeiss 50mm lens.

When the US-led Occupation of Japan decided that a part of the Japanese civilian economy

should be photographic equipment they had Japan's homegrown optical and camera

companies reverse engineer Leica and Zeiss equipment. This, of course, violated patents.

But as Germany was a conquered nation, Leitz and Zeiss couldn't do anything about it.

This why your Nikkor 50/1.4 is a Zeiss based design. The fabled Nikkor 85/2 is also a

Zeiss-based design. I don't know to what extent the original designs might have been

impoved by Nikon.

 

These two lenses, mounted on Barnack Leicas, did much to boost the image of Japanese

optics abroad. What! Japanese lenses as good as German lenses? Photogs like David

Douglas Duncan told an incredulous photographic world that it was indeed true.

 

Nikon made lenses in Contax 'C' mount and well as Leica thread.

The wartime Zeiss LTM lenses are indeed scarce.

 

The Nikkors also take the original Sonnar lens design a bit further with a fairly robust coating of the elements. I just acquired an 85/2 Nikkor P.C. it's a beauty.

As John and the others have alluded to the Nikkor 50mm F1.5 was a near clone of the Zeiss Sonnar 50mm F1.5, but a year after the Nikkor's introduction, and after a great engineering effort, Nippon Kogaku was able to "crack" the 1.4 barrier exclusively through their own efforts. According to Nikon historian Robert Rotoloni in his book "Nikon Rangefinder Camera", the 50mm F1.4, though having the same number of elements - seven - as the 1.5 version, has a "completely new optical formula using glasses of higher refractive index, enabling better corrections and a slightly faster speed."

 

This makes it a completely different lens verses the Sonnar F1.5.

...one story I heard was that the Japanese developed bubble-less optical glass before Leitz/Zeiss did..Leica salesmen were forced to claim bubbles in glass meant better optical glass...Japanese had more ancient knowledge about moulten materials, plus they allegedly put more "computer" power to the task (large drum-type circular slide rules) than did Germans.

Whether or not the 50/1.5 Nikkor-S is really a "completely different lens" from the 50/1.5 Sonnar, they have a very similar, if not identical, optical signature.

 

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"This makes it a completely different lens verses the Sonnar F1.5."

Christopher

 

May I clarify what I said:

 

1) the Nikon 50mm F1.5 is a clone of the Sonnar 50mm

F1.5 and 2) the Nikon 50mm F1.4 is a completely

different lens.(I believe this is the answer to

the second question of this post.)

 

Whether they yield the same optical results is a matter of personal interpretation. All three are excellent performers and hard to beat with even modern "glass".

Nikkors are what the canon rangefinders used in the 1930's. Canon made cameras only; and Japan Optical ie Nikon made the lenses for the Canons. Japan optical goes back before WW1, the "war to end all wars."

Robert, I realize what you meant, I was just partially disagreeing. Just because Rotoloni writes that the Nikkor-S was a "completely new optical formula" (the Nikon party line?) doesn't mean that it was actually *completely* new, since it's obvious from the block diagrams mentioned by John Shriver that it is closely based on the Sonnar design. Not a clone or straight copy, but still bearing a very, very close family resemblance. This is not to say that the folks @ Nippon Kogaku didn't work hard to improve the Sonnar design & implement improvements in glass, coating, etc. & that the lens wasn't a major achievement. The same goes for the 8.5cm/2 Nikkor-P v. the 85/2 Sonnar--not clones, but the lineage is clear.

 

---------------------

 

"May I clarify what I said:

 

1) the Nikon 50mm F1.5 is a clone of the Sonnar 50mm F1.5 and 2) the Nikon 50mm F1.4 is a completely different lens.(I believe this is the answer to the second question of this post.)

 

Whether they yield the same optical results is a matter of personal interpretation. All three are excellent performers and hard to beat with even modern "glass"."

What about the Nikkor 5cm/2 lens? Is it a Sonnar or Planar design or what?