When did you consider yourself a "professional"

A lot of "professions" have criteria such as x number of years of schooling, or a linces of some sort whereas

photography may or may not even require formal schooling. When you were starting out, (or, if you are just

starting out), when did you consider yourself a "professional". In one way, it could be when you start taking

money in exchange for your services. I have always considered a professional to be someone who is an expert in

their field.

 

Therefore, the fact that I have recently been taking payment in exchange for photography services. I guess I am

in some ways a "professional", yet, I am by far an "expert" as I am still learning.

 

Just wondering as I just got a new file cabinet and filed my application for membership to Pro Photographeras of

MA. I feel funny joining because I'm sure most members are MUCH more experienced than myself.

My mother sells brownies at the church bazaar, but that doesn't make her a professional chef...and amateur photographers are becoming as common (if not more so) as amateur chefs, bakers, grill meisters, etc. The lack of licensing or any tangible requirements allow anyone to call themself a "professional photographer."

 

IMHO, the term "professional" when it comes to photography refers to one who is clearly competent in their "profession" and derives their livelihood from it. While professional photography may not have the licensing or educational requirements of law, medicine, etc; to be "clearly competent" in photography requires an exceptional amount of knowledge, experience, education and general investment in the craft and business of photography.

Thanks Christopher. I agree. Though I am sure the way things are these days that "professional photographer's" groups have plenty of people at my level and I wonder if I am missing out on learning by not joining up.

When I had a biz plan, marketing plan, insurance, tax ID, biz lisc, when I was able to PRODUCE PRO results EVERY time for my clients, and was paid enough to cover ALL biz costs and make a profit. I was fortunate in that I was paid for my work from early on, but I was hardly a pro, after years of shooting and being paid and paid well, I finally got my biz in order.

Good answer Christopher. I've been wondering the same thing regarding photography. Seems like beginners are now professional when they first get paid, or get a camera valued over $100, yet they have no idea how to use a camera other then in AUTO everything mode. Needless to say there are no tests to take to become a pro. In some ways it bothers me, because of the number of beginners writing that the bride hates her wedding pics, what do I do! Well it's pretty much too late. When the bride hates the pics there's nothing one can do to convince the bride that the photos really aren't that bad.

 

When people write saying this is there first wedding what should I do. I think the best answer here is don't do it, you may find yourself in court. But people don't want to hear this and the answer is almost always the bride doesn't have any money, or I'm just trying to help her out because we are friends. It's a wicked fast way to wreck a friendship.

 

Lately on those afterrnoon TV court shows there's more and more brides demanding refunds. It's becoming very common. The worst case I ever saw was last summer a lady photographer told the judge she got ripped off. Someone took her camera a few days before the wedding. The goof didn't bother to rent a camera system and showed up with 20 of those throw away cameras!!! She charged the bride around $2000 and the bride sued her, needless to say she won! I was in shock that this "PROFESSIONAL," photographer had the nerve to pull a stunt like this. Yet she called herself a very gifted professional photographer because she didn't have to show up at the wedding, but she did anyway! Amazing attitudes!

 

I don't think we will ever solve this on this site or any other site regarding what makes a professional photographer, but is fun to talk about.

I think `Professional` and `Expert` are mutually exclusive.

 

To continue Christopher`s analogy: not all (Professional) Chefs are Experts, in even one Cuisine.

 

I considered myself a (true) Professional after about one and a half years shooting for money: I was an Assistant Photographer, and had just completed my first diploma. It was the first Wedding I did, under my Own Business Name and from my own Studio.

 

I can remember the Bride and Groom distinctly. I referred to myself as `A Professional Photographer` before that date, which with the value of hindsight was not correct, IMO.

 

I consider that I have great expertise in various areas of the Wedding and Portrait Photography Profession, and I think my clients recognize that.

 

I do not think I would refer to myself, generally, as an `Expert Photographer`, within a gathering of Professional Wedding Photographers, their are many greater Artists than I.

 

I think my Bio Page kinda explains these points.

 

WW

The first time I thought of 'going back' to photography as just a hobby. LOL.

 

~rc

When I achieved quality results and my prices reflected the delivered images . Started in 73 - first wedding in 77 --pro by 84. In other words :: the first shot and the last one, at the wedding > had the same density (86) --without post lab work.

I have thought of this as well, but came to the conclusion that I should consider myself a professional photographer. While I am not making a true living off it yet (working towards it though) - and supplement my income with web design, all my resources go into my photography business. I am technically in my first year of business, I have a degree in photography, and I produce professional results. I do a couple free shoots here and there just to build my portfolio (and more importantly references) for next years official launch. I also do a few assisting jobs, but I charge for most my shoots in general.

 

For me, it comes down to this:

If someone asked me if I was a professional photographer because they were looking to have photos done of them (for money), I would say yes. To say no, or to say you are just an amature would potentially lose you a client and prevent you from really becoming a pro if you classify it that way.

 

Bottom line is, if you can tell a potential client you are a professional photographer and you know you can give them professional results, you are. It shouldn't be about how much you make because you aren't garanteed to make a lot of money in your first year of business, even if you have all the other pieces of the puzzle.

After I was routinely shooting weddings alone for an established studio I began to consider myself a pro. At that point I wasn't just responsible to the B/G, their families and friends to produce consistent quality images in covering their once-in-a-lifetime event, I was also responsible for the financial security of the studio and the people who worked there. This included the studio owner, other photographers, and the ladies that took care of the albums, sales, etc....

BTW, it's silly to feel funny about joining PPA because most of the members are MUCH more experienced.......that's the point. It takes a real pro to appreciate the value of continued professional training and networking. You also should be in good company, the growth rate trend for PPA and WPPI has been growing at an unprecedented level over the last few years. What is ironic, in spite of the growing memberships there seems to be a trend with the older established studios closing. Personally, I think the profession is changing rapidly....some of the changes are good and some are noy so good.

 

For some interesting thoughts about "real" professional photography: http://www.sonopp.com/Perspectives/Devaluing/Devaluing.htm

IMHO: Plain and simple, it means that your profession is photography. It is only implied that you know what you are doing because you are able to make a living at it. Therefore, you are a professional when someone asks you what you do for a living, and you can answer: "I'm a photographer."

 

What I find most interesting is how the word "amateur" also implies that one -isn't- an expert. Really "amateur" means "for the love of it". Professional might mean "I do it for money." Which is the expert? I'd say most likely the amateur is the expert. Go figure.

 

I like what Joel Meyerowitz calls himself: "I'm a serious photographer."

Hi David,

 

Thanks for the link.

 

I like Anne Almasy's comments. Is she the "new" photographer and the author represent the "old."

 

The only thing constant is change.

 

The pro today is defined differently than the past. I could be typing this from a city park bench that has wi-fi.

 

All of us have opportunities never realized by people who was in this industry just a short time ago. We can have people

look at our work from anywhere in the world and we can get hired to do weddings most anywhere. I can use the

computer screen, with software & hardware, as a canvas to create art as never could be accomplished with film or the

darkroom.

 

Photography has a very bright future. If it wasn't why would so many try to break into the industry? And the ladies who

are part of mainstream photography have done wonders for the business and are creating images that, quite frankly,

simply amaze me. Kudos to all of you!

 

Yes, the industry has changed. For the better.

 

Some will enter and survive and others will leave.

 

Fun & Smiles!

I considered myself a professional from before my first paid assignment. Professionalism is really about how you approach any assignment --preparation and throughness are key -- and perception. The trick is getting others --clients and maybe peers -- to recognize you as a professional. <P><I>I like what Joel Meyerowitz calls himself: "I'm a serious photographer."</I>Before he was a "serious photographer", Meyerowitz considered himself an adveertising photographer, but i'd agree with his self description -- he is very serious about his photographic vision, the quality of his work and about getting seen and sold. I call myself a "working photographer".

David,

 

If you think unskilled machine gun style photographers just shooting anything and getting lucky here and there and

calling it wedding photojournalism is a threat to traditional wedding photographers think of how bad it is for those of us

that are real photojournalists that shoot weddings.

 

Back to the subject. Signs you are a pro: If you are confident that you can get good images on every job you take, due

to training and experience. Solve problems as they arise. Guarantee high quality. Stand behind your work with good

customer service. When you begin giving more advice than you ask for. Then you are a Professional.

Haha, Bill and David, it's funny to see that article and the letter I wrote in response two years ago! I do work from a studio now, but aside from that I still stand by my comments. :)

 

I like the statements about being able to deliver professional results EVERY time, regardless of the circumstances.

 

When I first started shooting weddings for (seriously) pennies, I relied heavily on luck, I think. If the lighting was bad, or if the bridesmaids weren't "cute", or if everyone was in a rush, I would pretty much panic and have a really hard time creating great images.

 

Now, however, I have total confidence that I can walk into ANY situation and create fantastic photographs for my clients. Ballroom or backyard, day or night, the results are going to be quality.

 

Now that I've been full-time for two years and have that knowledge, I definitely feel like I qualify as a "professional". :)

 

As a matter of fact, one of my teachers at HIP said, "The mark of a professional is the ability to make great photos on purpose." (Or something like that.)

 

So, yeah. Are you getting lucky? Or do you create great images with intent? I guess, to me, that would be the defining line. :)

"For some interesting thoughts about "real" professional photography: http://www.sonopp.com/Perspectives/Devaluing/Devaluing.htm"

 

I know I'm a bit "different" in my approach to wedding photography, but I find that article a tad insulting.

 

The summary I got was "Why are we not making photography seem more expensive than it really is anymore?"

 

It had a few valid points, but all it has done is put an even worse taste in my mouth for calling myself "professional".

 

What I can't stand about what is traditionally called "professional", is the over-the-top business/marketing mentality that (in my opinion, of course) cheapens photography. My clients love the fact that I am informal, open, honest, and I don't push the sale. And I do it all in the client's dining room, or (GASP!) at Starbucks.

 

"Surely you can't put a price on precious memories!" It's sick. The term "close the sale" makes me sick.

 

To me, there is a fundamental incompatibility between art and business. Wherever we place the compromising mark between them, it's dishonest. Personally I feel much better when I place the mark much closer to the art side, and realize that I'm going to have a hard time shooting weddings as my only source of income.

 

I guess I'm ranting, but it's no different than the constant rant from studios that incessantly bash anything other than the established tradition of the formal wedding portrait, and it's accompanying traditional business model.

 

:)

Ok ok, i will add my 2c in :) i hope you all read it...

 

I have been shooting events and wedding for the past 5 years. In my case i have two jobs. I'm in banking 9-5, and as a photographer the rest of the time. In my case i was 'pushed' into photography world while attending a wedding 5 years ago. My cousin needed someone to capture 'special behind the scene moments', and knew that i have some experience with the camera....poooooof, just like that a photographer was born. Michael Gerber describes this as an "awakening' moment of realizing that i can do this. The Dreamer, Thinker, Storytelling, and Leader all in me woke up and sow this as a business or a new venture/entrepreneurial opportunity to do provide a service and be better at it that anyone else. I just knew i can be a professional photographer and succeed in this business even without a professional training. Of course the Thinker in me knew and wondered, who am i to think this way? i donﾒt have training, i hardly shot before this event, i donﾒt know anything about running a business, nor provide a service to anyone, so who am i to think this way and be this "professional photographer" that everyone will want and pay money.

 

I think once you block the Negative Reaction from yourself or from others who donﾒt consider you a professional, you will achieve just that. You will act and be professional. Its that simple. A lot of my friends donﾒt consider me as such, because the know how things happen or they think that professional is only when you have a diploma with a BFA or MFA from some art school. They also know that i have a banking job, thus How can they perceive me as professional? They refer to me as hobbyist, or semi-pro. Despite of those negative reactions, i am currently featured in Rangefinder magazine for my Event photography; i have shot countless of weddings, and currently the primary medical photographer for NYU medical center in NY.

 

Secondly, i believe you have to be comfortable in your ability and in deliverables. A professional will always recognize what is being asked and can he deliver that. He also recognizes his strength and weakness. You have to know when to decline a job (better be a good reason) or push yourself to do more. I think money in talking about a professional has nothing to do with it. Its the approach that leads you to the actual action of taking a picture that makes you a professional. The execution, understanding the light source, understanding your client and subject, understanding the composition and how to make it better, those are just some of the things that distinguishes you from a non professional. A simple thought behind your action is already making of a professional.

 

You can find my full article by going to my website - www.fridphotography.com and going to About Me.

 

Af

Way to go Anton!

Sorry Lauren, I haven't read all of the posts so I apologize if somebody has said it already--but I was taught long ago that the definition of 'professional' was somebody that was paid money for doing something. However, although by definition there are many photographers that are "professionals" on the day they start their business, many of them (including you) are humble enough to realize that they have a long way to go before they are "experts", as somebody pointed out above. Just about every creative profession is that way, you are always learning something new.

 

In my opinion I would say that you are a professional, and you seem to have the right attitude. And, few of us are as good as we would like to be!

At what point does someone accumulate enough knowledge to be called "professional"? My experience might be similar to others who lurk here, so I'll just throw it out there and see where the discussion goes. I spent more than 20 years in the photo industry -- the *business* side of photography. I was a rep for two of the major Japanese camera manufacturers and a few of the not-so-major ones, and I taught professional photographers how to use professional 35mm and medium format equipment.

 

I trained in Switzerland on the world's most expensive view cameras, studio lighting systems and studio light stands, not because I was going to use the equipment, but because my job was to sell it and teach pros how to use it. Also during my photo industry career I represented some truly fine pro photofinishing labs and learned the ins and outs of that business as well as consumer photofinishing.

 

Every company I worked for considered film and processing a legitmate business expense, so I probably threw away more photos than some pros take in a lifetime, certainly more than most amateurs take in a lifetime. But during that entire time, I never once earned a full-time living taking photos. Was I a pro? Other pros thought so, or at least they and the camera dealers I worked with accepted my credentials as if I were one. I have a degree in photography.

 

I didn't consider myself a pro, but I probably could have. My point in contributing this to the discussion is that there are as many definitions of pro as there are pros.

 

Will

The first time I had to consider whether I was a "professional" or not was when I was recently asked to do a photo shoot for a magazine. Up until that point for nearly 2 years I had invested a lot of time learning about photography and continually working on improving my skills. I had been paid for photos submitted to books and magazines but it was not my full time job and I had never attended any classes and didn't have any photography qualifications. Also I have not yet been able to afford a lot of equipment so only have my Canon rebel xt, good 17-70 lens, tripod and external flash.

So although I had been paid for photos I had taken in my own good time, my chosen subject matter, good lighting conditions etc this was the first time I had been asked to take photos of people for money under unknown conditions and unknown subject matter and the first time I had to actually think about whether I was the "professional photographer" they wanted and should I accept.

I initially got hung up on the fact that "others" might not see me as professional because I didn't have lots of equipment, a more expensive camera or professional qualifications and then I thought that all I needed to consider was could I deliver what was required.

I agree with Jon's point "it comes down to this: If someone asked me if I was a professional photographer because they were looking to have photos done of them (for money), I would say yes...

if you can tell a potential client you are a professional photographer and you know you can give them professional results, you are"

 

So for me that was the first time I thought "Yes" I am a professional photographer for the following reasons

- experience and knowledge

- time and money invested

- thought before photo is taken (light, subject, composition etc), not just shooting randomly in auto mode and hoping for best

- professional attitude

- confident can deliver what's required

 

I obviously realise I have a long way to go to match those who have invested a lot more time and money and have far more years experience than I have and I also realise that even if I am a professional I would not consider taking on ANY photography assignment (paid or not), only those where I think my current ability and equipment can deliver a quality result.

 

I think Ed's point is interesting

"...how the word "amateur" also implies that one -isn't- an expert.."

I think "expert photographer" is not synonymous with "professional photographer". You can be an expert professional or expert amateur photographer and there are expert and non-expert professional photographers. So when seeking someone to take quality photos maybe one should ask "are you an expert photographer" and not "are you a professional photographer" ;-)

Oh, I get it...the term "professional photographer" is a lot like those T-shirts that say "#1 Dad", or Precious Moments figurines proclaiming "World's Best Teacher."

 

Well, since most of the waiters, grocery checkers and bicycle delivery people in LA are "Actors," I guess the term "professional photographer" shouldn't have special privileges. Interestingly, I've never had an LA waiter tell me that they are a "Professional" Actor...just an "Actor." I wonder if there is a difference? Whenever terms become so diluted that it's hard to know exactly what is meant, the term becomes a "throwaway" suitable for little more than impressing the naieve.

 

With due respect to Groucho Marx, I'll avoid those clubs for "Professional Photographers"... 'I refuse to be a part of any club that will have me as a member.' (I really don't feel that way...but couldn't resist the quote.)

Howdy!

 

"Professional" means you make money. "Proficient" means you deserve the money you make.

 

I was professional when I took my first dollar from a customer. I hit proficient about a year after that. ;^<)>

 

Later,

 

Paulsky

<i>I think `Professional` and `Expert` are mutually exclusive.</i>

<p>

I think you need to look up "mutually exclusive."