What To Do About Bad Debt?

<p>This is our first year as wedding photographers on our own and we have our first client that is not paying the balance on her account. It has been nearly 2 months since the wedding was shot and 6 weeks since we told her everything was done and we would send her the work once full payment is received. She keeps making promised to pay, and never does. </p>

<p>How long do most wedding photographers wait before that take some sort of action? I don't anticipate any court action as it's just not worth it to us. How long should we hold onto her raw images before deleting them all? They were not an attractive couple, in the least, and I find no value with any of their images outside of payment from the B&G. </p>

<p>What would you do?</p>

<p>Isn't it standard to require the full balance paid in full before the wedding date?</p>

<p>If she does not pay in six months or less, I would send her a friendly notice that your policy is to delete all images on accounts that are past due after six months.<br>

That is what I did when I shot film in the good "old days.</p>

 

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<p>If she does not pay in six months or less, I would send her a friendly notice that your policy is to delete all images on accounts that are past due after six months.</p>

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<p>I highly recommend against doing this without an ironclad contract the clients signed that specifically allows this. They can always pay you. You can't produce images that are discarded. A terrible position to be in if challenged later even when the client is in breach. Even if the images will not really be discarded, playing this kind of game can cause other problems. It doesn't matter if Richard got away with it. It doesn't mean you will.</p>

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<p>They were not an attractive couple, in the least, and I find no value with any of their images outside of payment</p>

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<p>What value would you have if you thought the couple attractive?</p>

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<p>How long should we hold onto her raw images before deleting them all?</p>

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<p>What's the rush to delete? Do you have no space at all? You will probably get paid eventually but not if you delete them. You might pay them in a court judgment though.</p>

 

<p>a few things... </p>

<p>1) the couple can now google your name and find that you feel they "are not an attractive couple" and that you are asking how soon you can delete their images... Nice... Hope you didn't use your business name. </p>

<p>2) No pay, no images - you hang on to them until the end of time (2012) or later... Don't even think about deleting them. Even with a contract that states you could do that - DON'T. All it would take is a judge or jury to find you acted in bad faith and boom. </p>

<p>3) In case you haven't heard - the economy is in the toilet. No simpler way to put it. I have a wedding that I shot 3 years ago - the bride and groom have seen the images on line - but haven't paid (beyond the hourly rate) for any of them. Why not? His hours got cut and her job got cut - things happen. Am I deleting the images? Heck no.</p>

<p>4) I kind of question your interests in Wedding Photography - for the 2 reasons above (how soon can I delete and the unattractive remark. Maybe you should rethink things a bit. Seriously. I have never nor will I ever make that kind of a remark about a client. The beauty of weddings is in the eye of the beholder. Not every groom is Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt. Not every bride is a Playmate - but your job ... Our job - is to make them feel special if only for that day - which is the biggest in their lives next to the birth of a child. </p>

<p>Dave</p>

<p>Absolutely do not delete the images. Burn 'em to a CD and archive 'em, but do not delete them.</p>

<p>I agree with some of the other things that were said by Dave and John.</p>

<p>Will</p>

<p>Right. Well I'm more of the business side of this as my wife is the actual photographer, so I don't have the artistic ownership that she has. I look at all of this from the business side. Web site management, collection, advertising...that sort of thing. And account receivable, as that is what this is about. That's my job here. I come from that background and that's the way I see the world.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Manuel - </p>

<p>I don't know that it's about artist ownership, it's about doing what is right for the client and what will get you more business and not get you sued. </p>

<p>None of us know what your wife's contract with the couple states regarding payment, retention of images or deletion of images. </p>

<p>With the added information - my advice is to follow the contract to the letter.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

<p>Absolutely do not delete the images and look at this from a business-side, letting go of the emotion and the pettiness of the relative attractiveness comments.</p>

<p><strong>Quoting Manuel Neace</strong>:</p>

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<p><em>They were not an attractive couple, in the least, and I find no value with any of their images outside of payment from the B&G.</em></p>

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<p>This one sentence should give everyone a clue as to what happened. The B&G see zero value in paying for them.</p>

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<p>I look at all of this from the business side... ...That's my job here. I come from that background and that's the way I see the world.</p>

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<p>Savvy business people don't see it the way you did.</p>

 

They are broke. As lomg as you didn't give them the wedding CD, or the proofs, an album, don't worry about it.

 

You could let her know you could help work out a payment plan.

 

Again, don't worry, they will pay the bill.

 

If a year goes by, contact them for the last time and let them know you can't save them on your computer any longer and the images will be deleted, but don't delete them. If you want to save them to a CD or a second drive that would be fine. Chances are ater a year they are probably divorced.

 

I usually get other contact numbers such as the parents. These numbers are on the contract. If you have the parents phone numbers you could call them.

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<p><em>"And </em><strong><em>account receivable</em></strong><em>, as that is what this is about. That's my job here. </em><strong><em>I come from that background and that's the way I see the world."</em></strong>

 

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<p>OK, I can understand that. But what were you taught at Accounts Receivable School - Kneecapping?

 

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Most professionals I have come across in the Accounts Receivable Business are skilled at "working with" the client. That means: Putting the Client at ease; giving them a solution which is within their means; and not being judgemental about their predicament.

 

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Have you considered a payment plan? Have you enquired as to their circumstance and asked "Why?" . . .

 

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Further, in consideration of the "not attractive” comment, I expect you might need to address your own interpersonal communication skills to facilitate a workable solution which gets you the money and the solution, which you seek. . .

 

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And also, as a bonus comment on building your (Wife’s) business: I suggest you always strive to position your business in a reasonable light - because the image you have presented here, does not.

 

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WW

 

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<p><strong><em>"You could let her know you could help work out a payment plan."</em></strong></p>

<p>Hah! we were writing at the same time.<br>

I was less gentle, though.</p>

<p>WW</p>

<p>Manuel, I just refreshed my page and you have re-written something completely different. I was going to comment on the video guys taking the stills and showing them. Wasn't that a big dilema all through the reception? Anyway, no-doubt that probably fueled this mess, they're probably walking away with the whole job now. There is a lot more to this story than just what we're reading here right now. </p>

<p>Let's clear up some more details. According to your July 12 post about videographers taking stills, you and your wife worked this job the previous day (July 11?). So from July 11 until today is 41 days, not quite 6 weeks from the actual shoot. Manuel please, you're all over the place on this and here we are commenting on something that appears much more complex than the details available at hand above in the OP.</p>

<p>Get one 4 Gb USB-thumb drive ($10 to $12) and put the best images from the wedding on it. If you made proof prints (?) from the wedding, find a shoe box to store 'em in. But to just delete the wedding images puts you in a not-good situation if she decides to pay up.</p>

<p>Write the bride a nice letter every six weeks or so.</p>

<p>As noted above, after a year -- there is not much you can do...</p>

 

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<p><strong>"Let's clear up some more details"</strong></p>

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<p>Yes, indeed Manuel, as it does very much determine reasonable advice to give to you if all the facts are clear. <br>

Specifically please answer: <br>

Is it the "Video Guys taking Stills” problem (Ref: <a href="00WqhQ">http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00WqhQ</a> ), the same Wedding to which you are referring in this thread?</p>

<p>WW</p>

 

<p>The specifics aside, the larger issue is about negotiating pricing agreeable to both parties, and then that is the price to be paid in full, before the wedding. Once I instituted that policy all of these type issues evaporated.</p>

<p>I never specifically had someone not pay afterwards, but I am not in the business of "collections" and sometimes I had be persistent to get the money owed. I often found it particularly difficult to collect the final due at the wedding ... people forget in all the hubbub, or had overages elsewhere and want more time to pay.</p>

<p>While <strong>I do not necessarily agree</strong> with the following, it is a practice of some fairly successful Wedding & Event photographers to:</p>

<p>1) Require full payment months in advance of the event because it has proven to increase album and print sales immediately after the wedding.</p>

<p>2) Place a finite time frame for how long they will archive images as incentive to make print orders or additional albums. I know of one VERY successful shooter that has a meeting to show the work shortly after the wedding, where the client is told the images will be deleted immediately after the meeting (this one I particularly think is a nefarious hard sell tactic, but he is making at least twice the profit I am, and gets a higher percentage of referrals from those same clients then I do from mine, so what do I know? </p>

<p>Do not delete the images.... but there's no harm sending them a note saying that you will if you do not receive payment in x weeks.</p>

 

<p>William. Yes, this is the same wedding. And I have been working with this bride for payment. She has made at least 3 promises to pay, "Some but not all," and has sent zero payment. She is overly polite on the phone and sounds very sincere, only to not meet her promise yet again.<br>

I am more emotionally evolved here because it is my wife's business. She works very hard for these people, very hard, and she puts the same effort in each wedding be it one of our early $500 weddings, or a $1,000 or $1,500 wedding. It's all the same to her. And her clients love her. Every wedding she receives great feedback from the clients once they receive the images. So it's upsetting to me to see her knock herself out for this B&G only to be stabbed in the back.<br>

We have changed the agreement just because of this couple. No more 25% up front and the rest on delivery. It's 75% up front and the rest on the delivery. <br>

And we are not going to delete any of the images. Who knows, maybe we'll see one, or both, of them on TV some day and can sell these to Hard Copy. Or whatever. I was just ready to start threatening to delete. <br>

One other question, should we leave some of their images up on the on-line gallery. Or remove those until we receive the payment?<br>

Thank you all for the feedback. </p>

<p>25/75, now 75/25, that's 50% less trouble than before. Good move. See, the details are very important.</p>

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<p>should we leave some of their images up on the on-line gallery. Or remove those until we receive the payment?</p>

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<p>What does your contract say about this?</p>

<p>I would take everything offline. In fact, I would never show anything online until all payment has been received. I'm sure this is why they keep saying they'll pay when they don't. They've been enjoying the images all this time, and so have their family and friends, and feel as if they've received their images already. You will have much better results collecting if they don't see anything until payment in full in received.</p>

<p>These days, a lot of people are financially - how shall I say it - screwed. If they've found themselves in unexpectedly bad circumstances and can't afford to pay you, or if some other factor had occupied their attention (e.g., you'd be amazed what people will neglect to do if there's a death in the family, their house has been flooded, etc.) doing anything negative like deleting images or threatening to won't make them more likely to pay, it will just make them mad. Hold their photos in escrow, write them to say that if their finances are too tight to pay now you can hold the images and give them to them later when they pay - assuming they're not divorced they'll still be interested in buying the photos in a couple of years, and hard drives are under $0.10 per gig.</p>

<p>If you find that they're not acting in good faith - they can afford to pay but choose not to - if your actions demonstrate you're taking reasonable measures to accommodate the clients, you'll have a better case in small claims court.</p>