very smelly old negatives

I need some help from people who know a lot more about photography

than myself. I am not in anyway a skilled photographer. I am

helping a family organizing some of of their fathers photos and

negatives. He was a semi-professional photographer and a high

school photography teacher, so there are thousands of photos and

negatives.

 

Most of the negatives are around 50 years old and some have a very

awful caustic smell to them. Also some are very large size, like

4x6 negatives and seem to have a crinkling film on them.

 

The question I need help with is 1) What can I do about the smell?

Does just airing them out in my garage OK? Is this smell dangerous?

2) What can I do about the crinkling flim on the negatives. Does it

come off, or would that ruin the negatives?

 

So some advice would be very helpful and greatly appreciated.

It is called vinegar syndrome. Seperate the bad smelling ones from the good ones it can spread. It is nearly impossible to save them. Google vinegar syndrome and you will see lots of information on what steps to take next.

 

Here is an excellant http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/technical/vinegar.jhtml?id=0.1.4.11.12.4&lc=en

Early flexible filmbase was made of cellulose nitrate, which is notorious for being unstable. It is also highly flamable, especially when it has begun to decompose. An acid odor is described by Kodak as characteristic of nitrate filmbase that has been stored in a sealed container.

 

If the films have the notation "safety film" then they are not on nitrate film base.

 

Nitrate filmbase was replaced with cellose triacetate, which was thought at the time to be highly stable. Unfortunately some early acetate filmbases have proven to be unstable, and this deteriorate with a vinegar smell. The smell is so characteristic that the problem is frequently called the "vinegar syndrome".

 

Kodak made the transition from nitrate to acetate film bases from 1933 to 1951, depending on the film type. (Better acetate is still used for roll film; sheet film is usually on polyestar.)

 

Nitrate film, especially if deteriorating, is fire hazard. Very large quantities in sealed containers can spontaneously combust.

 

The general advice for both types is to store in cool or cold conditions at moderately low humidity. Loose storage so that the vapor can escape is a good idea. Once negatives are seriously deteriorating, the best solution is to duplicate them and dispose of the originals.

 

With this introduction you should be able to find more information on the web.

jaaine,

 

The most important thing is to copy the decomposing nagatives, then discard them.

 

Michael,

 

I agree with everything you say except for the spontaneous combustion. This is a persistent myth. Nitrate base in a sealed container can decompose, but it takes ignitition to start combustion.

You have received excellent and correct information.

 

As one who believes old negatives can be valuable archive material, I beg you to have those deteriorated films carefully scanned ASAP. Scan them, or have them scanned in 24-bit color (minimum) because one can use the colors to help repair deteriorated areas. They will, of course, be printed or finally saved in B&W.

 

I've handled perhaps only fifty nitrate-base sheet films. Most were unrecoverable, a horrible nuisance but regardless it was a worthy effort. I'm not just spending your valuable time with my suggestion; if you were local I'd be happy to help.

 

(I think, but am not sure that we have a professional film archivist somewhere on this list. You might also post to http://largeformatphotography.info/lfforum/)

Michael gave you most of the important info. Nitrocellulose, while deteriorating and changing state will sometimes also become jelly like. It's a very dangerous material when it's changing ("cross linking" I think). When the Library of Congress (I think that's who it was) was looking to store their deteriorating nitrocellulose film (movie), they ended up storing it in old inoperative missle silos that the army lent them because of the high flammablity danger. So you should at least keep this in mind when storing. The LOC was reprinting, little by little, the film onto new relatively archival film material last I heard, and were planning on disposing of the dangerous stuff after archiving. This was a few years ago, so things might have changed.

<p>Is spontaneous combustion of nitrate film a myth? It's probably extremely unlikely but not impossible -- in <a href="http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/technical/storage_nitrate.jhtml?id=0.1.4.11.12.12&lc=en">Storage and Handling of Processed Nitrate Film</a>, Kodak states "Admittedly, it takes a bit of pushing to cause it to burst into flames spontaneously. For example, in one laboratory test, combustion occurred with a decomposing 1,000 foot roll of film only after it was kept at 41ﾰC (106ﾰF) for 17 days tightly encased in a can wrapped in insulation to retain the heat of decomposition."</p>

 

<p>What is true is that nitrate film burns very well. My only experience is with a small quantity of nitrate film in good condition. I experimented with a scrap, which did indeed burn much better than modern film.</p>

 

<p>I'm not sure from Jaaine's description of a "caustic" smell that we can be sure that these films are nitrate rather than early acetate films suffering from the vinegar syndrome. A first step is to identify the filmbase to know the hazard level. Kodak

<a href="http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/hse/nitrate/?id=0.1.4.5.16.12&lc=en">Publication H-182</a> has more information on nitrate film. But this Kodak information is oriented to very large quantities of motion picture film.</p>

 

<p>If the film is nitrate, the hazard level suggests duplicating as the best "preservation" measure. In this era, the easiest duplicating method, as suggested by Pico, is scanning. Even if the films are acetate, if their condition is poor enough, this is probably the best course.</p>

At my summer house I had many color and B&W negatives go under salt water with Katrina. The Kodacolor 4x5's from the 1960's and 1970's have a weird smell, plus thus modern last years Fuji 800 superia and press color films. Both old c22 and modern c41 canbecome "smelly" abit vinegar smelling with exposure to too much water. Beware that the crap on the "falling apart" negatives will get on your scanners glass, or drop inside your once clean 4000dpi 35mm scanner. Late 1950'S 4x5 color negatives that didnt get soaked and were in a dryer state have for decades had this smell like the emulsion is "turning", I would jump to the conclusion that your negatives are Nitrate, unless you double check the film, notch, and vintages.

Both Nitrate and Safety films if kept too sealed up can give off abit of a "very smelly" odor. Nitrate films can actually be more robust with aging than safety films. There are some "Safety films" that came out in the 1920's. Storage conditions matters alot more that years.

Unfortunately, there's no easy answer here. Without seeing the film first hand, nobody will

be able to positively ID it, and even seeing it firsthand--positive identification can be

difficult as well, since film bases share the same traits up to a certain point. So my advice,

as always, is to try to find a local or state archive for some advice. If it's a public one, you

should be able to get some guidance in the form of a patron service. What you need is

someone to help you separate out the film bases and the deteriorating negs--figure out

which ones to focus on first (no pun intended)--if they're deteriorating, then you need to

prioritize them into ones to dupe asap and ones that can wait a bit. You can also maybe

separate them based on importance or historical significance etc.

 

To try to answer your questions though...1) you can't do anything about the "smell". that's

the film base deteriorating. acetate and nitrate both have odors--rather pungent &

irritating when they get bad--but the two bases age differently, albeit both fataly

destructive in the end. Is it dangerous? yes/maybe/depends--the odor causes some health

problems in

certain concentrations and the base material can also cause skin problems with handling

for some people. The nitrate is harmful, in that if it's sealed up under the right conditions

(high heat) it can combust--contrary to what was posted above, this has happened in

some cold storage vaults in the past decade as well, that had some mechanical

environmental problems. So--in a large quantity, there would be some

concern. The nitrate will damage other materials nearby, while the acetate won't, but at

the

same time it needs to be stored in such a way, that it can offgas, or it kind of accelerates

the deterioration if it's sealed up.

 

50 yrs old--brings you right to the end of nitrate base for almost all the manufacturers.

acetate started pretty early for professional films (sheet) but not pack film. The roll films

ran until the early to mid 50s as possibly nitrate if not marked, and then mixed in with all

this is polyester as well....

 

2) the only thing you can do for the "crinkling" of the negs--if they're safety base--

acetate--is to lower the temp and relative humidity. this will slow down the deterioration,

but it needs to be low--like freezer low, and the rh needs to be down to 30% or so, which

is kind of hard to do as well. it needs to stay there too, not fluctuate. Realistically, the bets

thing to do is to duplicate them at this point. How you do that, depends on what you

intend to do with them and what you can afford I guess--here again, an archivist or

conservator could help. Personally I lean towards using sheet film--either duplication or

shooting copy negs of prints made from the originals because--well, I think film is more

stable than digital, but that's just my personal opinion and experience.

 

At any rate, it could be if you find a local institution, they may be interested in this just for

it's place in their community. Hope this helps & makes some sense.

<p>Re: Spontaneous combustion of old film.<br>

My mother had just called me to let me know that an old canister of processed film/negatives (1930s -1950s) that had been sitting quietly on her desk, for who knows how long, suddenly "popped" with a loud noise flew up into the air and landed on her carpet......on fire! Luckily she was in the room at the time as she ran to get some water and doused the small fire, which left a burn mark on her carpet.<br>

It was this incident that prompted me to Google "spontaneous combustion and old negatives" leading me to your site and this discussion.<br>

I assure you that this can happen as it DID happen and my mother has the burn on her carpet to prove it! I now have to go digging in my basement for the bag with 10 - 15 other similar little canisters that she gave to me in case this happens again.</p>

<p>Alan H</p>

 

<p>For Mr. Andrews: your remark about spontaneous combustion is wrong, and extremely dangerous mis-information. Nitrate-base film deteriorates naturally. The presence of any moisture in proximity to the base material (even humidity), forms minute amounts of Nitric acid, which in turn accelerates the decomposition of the film. The process generates heat, which is no problem if the film is ventilated, but in sealed containers over time it can generate and retain enough heat to initiate combustion. Spontaneous combustion of Nitrate films is not a myth, it's very real. The catastrophic fire at Kodak's vaults many years ago, which destroyed so many important films, was caused by that very process. Please check your facts before providing mis-information that has the potential to be harmful. </p>