Using a common bleach for E-6 & C-41B (& possibly RA-4)

<br>        OK, my C-41 and E-

6 processing lines are working well in my ATL-3; and in fact I'm

bringing up a second ATL-3 for room temp B&W work. But, the cost of

maintaining separate E-6 and C-41B bleaches is getting expensive.

<br> <br>    

    What I would like to do is mix the two

bleaches -- Flexicolor III replenisher concentrate, and Professional

Bleach Process E-6 concentrate -- with appropriate dilutions and use

it for both processes.

<br><br>    

    Now, I know there's an issue with the E-6

process, conditioner/pre-bleach, and stabilizer formaldehyde content.

As a test, I ran some C-41 film on the E-6 line, as follows with good

results: <br>

<li>C-41 color dev @3:30 (1/2 stop push)

<li>E-6 pre-bleach @2:00

<li>E-6 bleach @6:00

<li>E-6 fixer @8:00

<li>Wash @5:00 </li> <br>

        What I figured is that

the pre-bleach would "spike" the film with preservative; though I can

also use a 2% formaldehyde solution for dye stability.

<br><br>    

    My question basically revolves around the 10

gallons of E-6 bleach and 12.5 gallon cubetainers of C-41 bleach,

coming up with a "tail end" for the two processes with one bleach.

Since E-6 pre-bleach is very inexpensive, I am not averse to using it

for the C-41 runs if needed to use a single bleach. <br><br>

<b>References:</b><br>

<li><a href = "http://users.snip.net/~joe/Kodak_E6_Manuals_Z99+Z119.

pdf" target = "_blank"><u>Kodak E6

technical and processing handbooks Z-99 and Z-119</u></a>

<li><a href = "http://users.snip.net/~joe/Kodak_E6_Manual_Z6.pdf"

target = "_blank"><u>Kodak E6 Q-LAB

Process Control Handbook Z-6</u></a>

<li><a href = "http://users.snip.net/~joe/z131.pdf" target =

"_blank"><u>Kodak Process C-41 Using KODAK

FLEXICOLOR Chemicals Publication Z-131</u></a>

</li>

<br>

<b>Cheers! <br>

Dan Schwartz <br>

Cherry Hill, NJ <br>

Click <a href = "http://users.snip.net/~joe/default.htm" target =

"_blank"><u>here</u></a> to

visit my home page!

<br></b> [Note: <i>All links open a new browser window</i>] <br>

<br>    

Dan;

The pre-bleach is not needed for C41 films. Otherwise the E6 bleach will work for both films.

The E6 fix will work for both films.

You have to use the appropriate stabilzer and pre-bleach for E6 and the appropriate stabilizer for C41.

OTOH, you could convert to the new C41 RA fix and reduce the fix time for both E6 and C41 to about 2 minutes. BTW, that new fix is just about the same as my super fix that I posted previously.

Ron Mowrey

Ron,

<br><br>

I spent about 45 minutes reading your <a href = "http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=009fBA" target = "_blank"><u>Super Fix</u></a> post and the followup thread, and it was quite interesting. In my case, I'm not worried about the fixer speed, since sometimes I simply give one quick wash cycle (30 seconds in the Jobo ATL-3) after the fix step, then plop the reels into the 5 gallon fixer storage tank for a few minutes as a second fix, then give a 4-5 minute final wash. Alas, at this point in time, my E-6 (& C-41 sheet film, for that matter) volume isn't great enough to worry about productivity just yet. :(

<br><br>

On the other hand, I need to contain both my costs as well as reduce the varieties of chemicals (or more accurately, chemical tanks). Having both an unopened 12.5 gallon A+B cubetainer pair of Flexicolor C-41 Bleach III and a 5 gallon cubetainer Professional E-6 bleach (not bleach LORR or even bleach AR), I'm looking (if possible) to eventually mix in the C-41 bleach just sitting there in the boxes. Also, to contain costs I'd like to start using a bleach regenerator instead of replenishing. Will I need separate regenerators

<br><br>

Also, to contain costs, I'd like to start using a bleach regenerator instead of replenishing. <i>If I can't mix the C-41 and E-6 bleaches</i>, will I need separate regenerators or will one of the two regenerator solutions work for both bleaches?

<br><br>

<b>Thanks! <br>

Dan Schwartz <br>

Cherry Hill, NJ <br>

Click <a href = "http://users.snip.net/~joe/default.htm" target = "_blank"><u>here</u></a> to

visit my home page!

<br></b> [Note: <i>All links open a new browser window</i>] <br><br>

Dan;

Do not mix regenerators. You can use one bleach, E6, for both neg and pos films. You can use one fix for both. As I said, the bleach and fix are not critical, the conditioner and stabilizer are critical for the particular processes involved.

Don't try to use RA paper blix with film. It is like using a popgun against an enraged elephant. Don't use film bleach and fix with RA paper. It is like using a nuclear weapon against a gnat. I hope you get my point.

If you use paper blix with film, you will get silver retention, if you use film bleach and fix with paper, you can get bad dmin and dye stability. You might even chew up the dyes a bit. IDK. I have not done this for years.

If you have to use film bleach and fix with paper, you might try diluting it by at least 2x, but this defeats your intended purpose.

Good luck.

Ron Mowrey

<br>Ron M. wrote:<br>

<i>Do not mix regenerators. You can use one bleach, E6, for both neg and pos films. You can use one fix for both. As I said, the bleach and fix are not critical, the conditioner and stabilizer are critical for the particular processes involved.<br><br></i>

OK, I <i>think</i> I follow you... The E-6AR bleach, with a working tank solution mixed at 400 + 600 and replenisher mixed at 500 + 500, with a specific gravity maintained above 1.130 (I have a hydrometer), is OK to use as a C-41 bleach.

<br><br>

My only question is that the E-6 pre-bleach appears to need to be carried over into the bleach: <br>

<li>      Conditioning agent CA-2 prepares the metallic silver for the bleach step;

<li>      The stabilizing agent provides dye stability;

<li>      The pre-bleach also supplies EDTA for the bleach and helps maintain the pH of the bleach. [<i>Source: Z6-11</i>] </li>

<br> i.e. that the bleach, once started/seasoned for E-6, will degrade without carryover of E-6 conditioner or pre-bleach if it's also used for C-41.

<b><i>In other words, I'm trying to make sure all the "t's" are crossed and the "i's" are dotted. </i></b>

<br><br>

<b>Thanks for all the help! <br><br>

Dan Schwartz <br>

Cherry Hill, NJ <br>

Click <a href = "http://users.snip.net/~joe/default.htm" target = "_blank"><u>here</u></a> to

visit my home page!

<br></b> [Note: <i>All links open a new browser window</i>] <br><br>

Dan;

You have everything down pat.

The problem is that you are trying to design a 'bastardized' process, if you will excuse my language. You will have to accept what you get.

Negative silver and reversal silver are different in nature and quantity in the two families of film. Negative silver does not need conditioning and I have no idea what this conditioning will do to your image structure.

I know that crossing stabilizers will cause problems someday down the road as your film fades into an unusable state.

Crossing films in the bleach is not commonly checked out at EK, as these solutions are particular to their processes. You are really on your own, and I have tried to give you the best advice for a dubious situation. Thats the best I can do. I cannot predict the consequenceds to your film with any detail.

Look for silver retention, improper dmin due to iron retention, and image fade. Look for sludge formation, oxidation, reduction, color changes, etc in your solutions.

Good luck.

Ron Mowrey

<p><i>Negative silver and reversal silver are different in nature and quantity in the two families of film. Negative silver does not need conditioning and I have no idea what this conditioning will do to your image structure. </p><p>

<b>That</i> is what I needed: I didn't know that the two bleaches are so different in action!</b>

</p><p>

<i>now that crossing stabilizers will cause problems someday down the road as your film fades into an unusable state.</i></p><p>

Actually, I make my own stabilizerfor color film, which is 2% formaldehyde and a touch of PhotoFlo...

</p><b>Cheers! <br>

Dan Schwartz <br>

Cherry Hill, NJ <br>

Click <a href = "http://www.focusphotolabs.com/default.html" target = "_blank"><u>here</u></a> to visit Focus Photo Labs!

<br></b> [Note: <i>All links open a new browser window</i>] <br><br>

Dan;

IIRC, the E6 and C41 stabilizers are different.

As for reversal vs negative silver, remember that reversal film silver is both MQ and color developed and all of it is silver. In negative film it is color developed and only 1/2 is silver, the rest is silver halide, therefore the E6 bleach is stronger than the C41 bleach, and a pre-bath is needed to assist in bleaching the E6 silver completely.

OTOH, the negative silver is covered with inhibitors due to the DIR couplers, thereby making them difficult to bleach in their own way, and so the bleaches differ due to the nature of the silver, the amount, and the ingredients on the surface of the metal. The fixes differ due to the amount of silver halide, the form, and the ingredients on the surface.

This can have an impact on your results.

As I say, good luck. Try it with 'junk' photos, not some of your good stuff. Do a few MacBeth charts to check for dye degradation or bad image structure. I am not aware of the bleach and fix affecting image structure, but they can affect dyes.

Ron Mowrey

<br>

Ron wrote (above)<br>

<i>

IIRC, the E6 and C41 stabilizers are different.

</i><br><br>

I would expect that, given the change from E-6 conditioner to E-6 pre-bleach, where E-K "buried" the formaldehyde for environmental reasons. In any case, I have access, through a medical lab, of 37% formaldehyde, which when diluted down to 2% and a few drops of PhotoFlo surfactant, <b>should</b> "embalm" any dye molecules(!)

<br><br>

<i>As for reversal vs negative silver, remember that reversal film silver is both MQ and color developed and all of it is silver. In negative film it is color developed and only 1/2 is silver, the rest is silver halide, therefore the E6 bleach is stronger than the C41 bleach, and a pre-bath is needed to assist in bleaching the E6 silver completely. <br><br>

OTOH, the negative silver is covered with inhibitors due to the DIR couplers, thereby making them difficult to bleach in their own way, and so the bleaches differ due to the nature of the silver, the amount, and the ingredients on the surface of the metal. </i>

<br><br>

I see... There must also be some other component of C-41 bleach, since it ships as "Part A" & "Part B" cubetainers, as opposed to E-6 bleach, which ships as a single cubetainer & uses a small amount of starter.

<br><br>

<i> The fixes differ due to the amount of silver halide, the form, and the ingredients on the surface. </i>

<br><br>

<b>Oh really... <i>This is a new one for me!</i> How do the E-6 and C-41B fixers differ? Is your <a href = "http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=009fBA" target = "_blank"><u>Super Fix</u></a> suitable for both E-6 and C-41B?

</b>

<br><br><i>

This can have an impact on your results.

<br><br>

As I say, good luck. Try it with 'junk' photos, not some of your good stuff. Do a few MacBeth charts to check for dye degradation or bad image structure. I am not aware of the bleach and fix affecting image structure, but they can affect dyes.

<br><br></i>

<b>Cheers! <br>

Dan Schwartz <br>

Cherry Hill, NJ <br>

Click <a href = "http://users.snip.net/~joe/default.htm" target = "_blank"><u>here</u></a> to

visit my home page!

<br></b> [Note: <i>All links open a new browser window</i>] <br><br>

Dan;

All silver in E6 is converted to silver bromide by the E6 bleach, and the fix only has to contend with that amorphous silver bromide.

In C41, the silver image only is converted to amorphous silver bromide but the original silver halide half remains with any iodide, restrainer and etc present. Therefore the E6 Bleach is stronger, but the C41 Fix is stronger IIRC.

If I had a choice in the matter, I would use the E6 bleach and the C41 fix.

Yes, my super fix is a takeoff on the C41 RA fix. I have no idea how it will affect dyes, as I said in my post. My fix is stronger than the C41 RA fix.

Ron Mowrey