THIS IS NOT A COMPLAINT - just an observation

This morning at approximately 8:50am CDT, I posted <a

href="http://www.photo.net/photo/4670821"> THIS PHOTO </a> to

the critique forum. Yes, it's a real photo, and I used "digital alterations" as

the category.

 

<p>I tried to pick something that might be interesting in the thumbnail, so

maybe someone would look at it. By 10:50am, it had worked it's way through the

thumbnail queue and, of course, was no longer visible.

 

<p> It garnered a total of one comment, and four ratings. OK, so it's not a

masterpiece. That is not the point. I looked down through the list of

thumbnails several times and clicked on many of them. I found only one photo in

the queue that had more than four ratings, and it's hard to find a helpful

comment these days.

 

<p> So if ratings are for the site, perhaps we should think about how to

encourage ratings. Personally, I much preferred the old list of photos in the

critique queue, because there seemed to be many more of them and they were

available for a longer period of time. It seems to me (I know, I know, I'm all

wet) that ratings have fallen off considerably of late. Some have opted to

stop rating because it doesn't seem to make much sense - can't argue with that.

 

<p> Also, having the photos available for a longer period of time might

provide the time for more photographers to see them and comment. We all know

that comments, for the photographer, are more helpful than ratings - especially

for some of us.

 

<p> I'm not complaining. I know my place as a mediocre photographer. But maybe

those with more advanced imagination can devise some way of providing photos

for rating so that they are visible for a longer period of time. Or, perhaps, I

don't know what I'm talking about.

 

<p> Ok, the flame-throwing can begin.

As a fairly new photographer, as well as a fairly recent member of photo.net, I see both sides of this issue. I have come to terms with the fact that, no matter how good I think one of my photos is, three's are on the way. I tend to look at the overall ratings of everyone and if there are some 5's 6's and 7's, I am a happy. That means that others believe that the photos have some quality aspects to them.

 

I have made a recent effort to rate 5 myself when I post. As for my comments, I often leave some, but I am rarely critical. As a novice, what makes me think that I have the experience to be a critical eye? I tend to say what I find pleasing about the photo and leave it at that. So when I choose a photo to comment on, it's usual an above average one. That obviously doesn't help the folks who are out there trying...just like me...to improve...since they may not receive as many ratings.

 

This is certainly not a perfect situation. I have just come to accept the fact that it is a great way to share your stuff with others, observe some photographers that are obviously better than I am, and hopefully learn from them and their photos. In the end, if I am pleased with a photo that I took, I guess that is what truly matters. Now, if I were trying to make a living at this, then I guess I would be even more concerned about what others thought.

 

For now, this is one of the greatest hobbies. I am out nearly every evening...walking around some of the most beautiful areas of the country. Always looking for a photograph, getting some good exercise, and eagerly awaiting my next pair of 3's.

 

Keep shooting and posting. BTW, I looked through your portfolio and you have some great stuff. As a digital photographer and an absolute novice on Photoshop, I also believe in the essence of the original. I do adjust brightness, contrast, hue, and saturation in order to compensate for my lack of talent getting the exposure perfect, but it is always in the spirit of trying to capture the image as I truly saw it. I also crop occasionally, to improve on the composition if I didn't do a good enough job from behind the lens. Other than that, I hate time behind the computer...I spend enough time there in my daily job!

I've been a member since 2003. I've observed that numeric ratings given are generally lower than three years ago. Maybe it's the increasing sophistication of the raters, or the rising quality levels of the submissions. I do think there's an increasing Photoshopped look in many of the highest rated images. Maybe we're shifting in that direction as an imaging culture. Last week I Googled "Straight Photography" and saw a lot of mediocre images out there, compared to what's at Photo.net. It leaves me in a conundrum, because I've not made the money or time investment in Photoshop... yet.

I've been a member since 2002, and have noticed basically the same things, but that really wasn't my point.

 

My point is that it would be nice if the photos submitted for critique were displayed for a longer period of time, so perhaps the photographer could get more feedback.

 

Thanks for the observations.

I assume it is a space issue. With the old format, just the title of the photo was given and you had to open each one to see the image...not nearly as effecient as seeing these large thumbnails. I personally like the current format and sure, I wish they could show more, especially when you open a specific category, but there must be a reason they only show x number of images.

 

One thing we all must agree upon though, this site continues to improve...whether it be the methods of loading, the format, etc. At least the great folks who run the site don't stay contented. Maybe this discussion will lead to some additional changes.

I think the problem here is that too many people just browse and maybe rate, and too often don't take the time to leave a (useful) comment.

 

I see from looking at your member page, you comment extensively; I try to do the same. For every critique request I've submitted, I've averaged about 6 comments on others' photos. I'm not claiming to be any kind of saint here, but I could only hope that my own photos got 6 comments, particularly as of late, when many have struggled to get a single comment. It's just too bad that many of the pros and amateurs alike on p.n don't seem to want to take the time to leave them.

 

As much as I admire some of those who are consistently at the top of the ratings in terms of their photography, I think their participation in the website could be much higher.

I rate a lot of photos, over 85,000 in the year I've been a member. I find it one of the best ways to learn. I get to see many different types of photos by many different photographers. I have criteria I use for specific ratings to try and be fair/consistent. During the last year, I've noticed my 'eye' evolving as I learn.

 

I don't put a lot of emphasis on ratings I receive, every one has different taste. And since I shoot mostly sports, lower ratings are the norm. Getting on the TRP is not my goal, improving my skills is.

 

I leave far fewer comments. I'm not a professional and don't feel qualified to comment (and I've seen some of the retaliation that goes on and would like to avoid that as well).

 

What I'd like to see is a 'Guest Pro' Critique forum. A place where one of the Pros takes a photo and provides a detailed critique of it. They discuss the techniques used: for lighting, framing, lens choice, DOF, etc., making suggestions for improvement. They then suggest how they would have done things different.

 

As a rooky I'd like to be taught how to look at a picture with a 'critical' eye. Teach me how to provide comments, so I don't end up just syaing "Wow, great picture". I'd love to be able to contribute as I learn.

I've said this before and I think it bears saying again. Yes, I've read all the rationalizations

for the rating system. No, I'm not trying to be a dick here or anything. These comments

are just my personal opinion. Everyone is free to disagree.

 

1) "The ratings are for site purposes, not for the photographers." This is (pardon me for

saying so) just absurd. I run into this sort of thing with my clients all the time. They have

an idea of what people should be doing with their pages that has nothing to do with what

people actually are doing. The reality of the rating system here at photo.net is that

photographers use the numbers to evaluate their own work. Simply saying over and over

again that they're not supposed to be used that way won't change how people are using

the system.

 

2) "1s and 2s don't count." Again, pardon me for saying so but that's asinine. If 1s and 2s

don't count then they shouldn't be part of the rating system at all. Telling people "rate this

from 1 to 7" and then telling them that the 1s and 2s don't count is insulting on the one

hand and flat out bad interface design on the other.

 

3) Based on the feedback here and elsewhere it's obvious that the system isn't working to

the general satisfaction of the members.

 

In terms of solutions, here are my thoughts.

 

1) If the ratings are for the site and not the photographer then they shouldn't show up on

member pages. If they're used only to rank photos in the Top Photos area then they

should be used ONLY for that purpose. Adding statistical information to the member

pages and showing ratings breakdowns on the photos themselves implies that they're to

be used by photographers to evaluate their work. As long as the interface is set up that

way, people are going to use it that way.

 

2) Obviously photographers use the ratings to evaluate their work. There's nothing wrong

with that. I think photo.net should embrace that kind of usage and encourage it. To that

end the 1s and 2s should be re-enabled and photographers should take their lumps when

people rate low. We may not WANT people to use the site to rate photos low but they ARE

going to do that as long as 1 & 2 appear on the rating screen no matter what the back end

does with those values. Either 1 & 2 should be removed from the form or they should be

re-enabled.

 

It all boils down to this: photographers use the ratings to evaluate their work. Photo.net

should either promote that idea or remove ratings altogether. There is simply no way that

the system can be set up so that the ratings are ONLY for ranking Top Photos. There is

also no way to keep people from being unhappy when their photos get low ratings.

However, there is a way to keep people from being unhappy that the system makes little

sense from both a functional and a user perspective. If ratings are going to continue to be

a part of the site then the low ratings should be re-enabled. I'd much rather see people

unhappy about low ratings than unhappy about photo.net's (IMO) lame attempts to protect

them from their peers.

As far as comments go, I've said in the past that we're struggling with poor interface

design there too. The function should be redesigned so that leaving a comment is the

default behavior. The comment box should be on the page with the photo. One of the

main reasons fewer comments are left is that the rater has to click to a different screen to

get to the comment box. People will scroll before they click, so expecting them to click

through a button to get to the comment box is putting in a barrier to comments that will

block well over half of those who probably would have written something otherwise.

Photo.net makes it too difficult to rate (by refusing to recognize how people use the

ratings and by removing the 1s & 2s, neutering the spread) and difficult to comment

(assuming you even notice it, click a button before being able to comment).

 

It's a drag to read worthless comments. It's a drag to get low ratings. It's frustrating when

you think that people aren't giving your work a fair shot. But it's worse IMO when people

try to protect me from those kinds of things and in the process degrade the usefulness of

the whole site.

Jeff Dreke, You have a wise and healthy attitude about your view of rating and commenting here on PN, very refreshing!

as a rule of thumb i prefer leaving comments than ratings - i also rate images, but most of the time i find ratings less valuable than trying to explain what an image does to my brain... also i found that leaving comments isnt' something that requires years of experience... i always said what was in my mind, and 99% of the time the photographer was happy to receive a point of view, either on the emotions received by the image, the technique used, etc....

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one interesting point is that rates are anyway useful to get the image seen, and since pn receives many hundreds images a day the only way to gather many useful comments is to get to the trp! and getting to trp is becoming more and more difficult.<br><br>

one thing that works here is *making new friends* through oculate comments, over time this happens to be a very good way to receive good ideas on how to improve images, so i would sarch for a way to encourage anyone who wishes to leave good comments (giving him/her a little more visibility maybe?).

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to encourage cronstructive criticism, wouldnt be nice to create small contests on a precise subject, give people a deadline, and then ask them to comment each other? new friends, many comments, more fun!