Sunpak 522 flash

I recently picked up an old Sunpak 522 auto thyristor flash and would like to use it with my Kodak Retina Reflex III camera. The instructions for the flash unit say to set your camera to the highest flash sync speed, which should be 1/500 sec since this is a leaf shutter camera and then match the aperture and film speed. My question is in auto mode on this flash unit, should the shutter on the camera always be set to 1/500 for proper exposure (and only vary the aperture setting)?

I can’t understand why Sunpak would want you to set such a high shutter speed. It really won’t effect the flash exposure, and I would disregard that advice.

 

All flash photography is really TWO simultaneous exposures at once. One is the ambient exposure, and one is the flash exposure. As with any camera, you must stay below the max sync speed so that the shutter curtains have time to be fully open when the flash fires. If you use a longer shutter speed you will let in more ambient light, but you might get ghosting from any subject or camera movement if there is enough ambient light for exposure. A faster shutter speed like 1/250 or faster, combined with a small aperture (f/8 or f/11), might give you little, or no ambient light, depending on conditions.

 

A good starting point for any camera might be manual settings of ISO 100, f/5.6, and 1/125 shutter speed. You can vary these slightly to either take advantage of any ambient light, or to eliminate ambient light, and only rely only on flash exposure.

 

With the Sunpak 522 Auto you just match the ISO and aperture to what you have set on the camera, and the flash will automatically adjust the flash power for a correct exposure based on what is sees reflected back into the forward facing sensor.

Thanks Mike. I might experiment with it a bit to see what happens if I follow the instructions as written and use the flash with the 1/500 of a second shutter speed. The instruction manual just cautions to not use a shutter speed that is above 1/850 second, but perhaps it will still offer the proper exposure at 1/500 with leaf shutters.

The exposure will be fine at 1/500 or anything below 1/500. All you are doing is cutting down on the ambient light with such a fast shutter speed. Flash photos generally look more natural with some ambient light. Try it both ways and see how you like it.

You could also experiment with using the Sunpak 522 on a Digital SLR to get a feel for how different shutter speeds effect the photo, before you shoot some film.

Be careful here. The Sunpak 522 may not be safe to use on digital because of its potentially high trigger voltage:

 

LINK - - Photo Strobe Trigger Voltages

Good point. Most modern DSLRs are good for 250v but if you have an older camera, it may not be safe.

 

Since your Retina has a leaf shutter and the Sunpak is a small battery powered flash that probably has a short flash duration, especially on auto settings at close distances, 1/500 should work just fine. If you want to mix ambient light with the flash then slower shutter speeds will allow that, depending on how much ambient light there is. A gated flash meter would be the best way to check this if you're reluctant to attach a vintage flash to a digital SLR as I certainly would be. Or shoot a test roll and see what effect changing the shutter speed will have in a situation that you would actually want to shoot.

Since your Retina has a leaf shutter and the Sunpak is a small battery powered flash that probably has a short flash duration, especially on auto settings at close distances, 1/500 should work just fine. If you want to mix ambient light with the flash then slower shutter speeds will allow that, depending on how much ambient light there is. A gated flash meter would be the best way to check this if you're reluctant to attach a vintage flash to a digital SLR as I certainly would be. Or shoot a test roll and see what effect changing the shutter speed will have in a situation that you would actually want to shoot.

 

Thanks AJG! Yeah I feel more confident to try it out with the Retina than I would with a DSLR.

It seems to me like the instructions are probably geared towards SLR's with focal plane shutters that sync at much lower speeds. I would think that with a leaf shutter you could probably use whatever shutter speed you wanted.

 

I recently tried out an older Vivitar flash on my D300 when my main flash stopped working. I used a cheap off camera flash cord in between, with the though that maybe if there was a voltage issue, the cord would bite the dust first. I cant say for sure if my plan was effective, but my D300 is still working.

Even if the Retina worked at 1/500 when new, it might be that the timing changes with age, even by a little bit.

The manual says between 1 and 1/500 for electronic flash on X setting.

For smaller flashbulbs, 1/30 on X.

 

You can look through the back and watch the flash, and see (about) how much light comes through

on different shutter speeds.

 

For any of these old cameras, it would be interesting to see shutter timing test results.

If - big if - the Retina actually reaches 1/500th at top speed, there may be a slight drop in exposure with the flash at full output.

 

The myth is that electronic flash has a duration of 1/1000th of a second or shorter, but this isn't true.

All the speedlights and portable electronic flashes that I've tested (more than a dozen over several makes) still have noticeable light output at more than 4 milliseconds after triggering.

Blue line is a real trace from a storage oscilloscope capture of a speedlight flash at full output.

X axis is time in milliseconds.

 

You can see that at 2 ms, = 1/500th shutter speed, the light output has only reached about 70% of its cumulative exposure.

 

Add to that the decreasing efficiency of leaf shutters at higher speeds, and you've got a recipe for underexposure.

 

So, unless there's a real need for a high shutter speed, like balancing flash with ambient light, then it's probably best to stick with something like a 1/125th shutter speed that captures about 90 ~ 95% of the total light output.

I used a cheap off camera flash cord in between, with the though that maybe if there was a voltage issue, the cord would bite the dust first.

For the sake of your camera; I'm pleased that that theory wasn't put to the test!

Edited October 22, 2020 by rodeo_joe|1

If - big if - the Retina actually reaches 1/500th at top speed, there may be a slight drop in exposure with the flash at full output.

 

The myth is that electronic flash has a duration of 1/1000th of a second or shorter, but this isn't true.

All the speedlights and portable electronic flashes that I've tested (more than a dozen over several makes) still have noticeable light output at more than 4 milliseconds after triggering.

[ATTACH=full]1361815[/ATTACH]

Blue line is a real trace from a storage oscilloscope capture of a speedlight flash at full output.

X axis is time in milliseconds.

 

You can see that at 2 ms, = 1/500th shutter speed, the light output has only reached about 70% of its cumulative exposure.

 

Add to that the decreasing efficiency of leaf shutters at higher speeds, and you've got a recipe for underexposure.

 

So, unless there's a real need for a high shutter speed, like balancing flash with ambient light, then it's probably best to stick with something like a 1/125th shutter speed that captures about 90 ~ 95% of the total light output.

 

For the sake of your camera; I'm pleased that that theory wasn't put to the test!

That's why I recommended using a gated flash meter--my first White Lightning studio strobes probably had a flash duration of 1/300 or so, which was indicated by my Sekonic L 518 meter when I changed the shutter speed on the meter from the 1/125 that I usually used to 1/250 or 1/500 which showed 1/3 to 1/2 stop less exposure from lights set at the same setting.

That's why I recommended using a gated flash meter

If the OP is in the market for one,

the cheapest flash meter that offers a good gated input range is the Shepherd FM1000. Available used for not very much money.

They're accurate and simple to use.

Gated 'shutter' range is 1/60th to 1/500th.

 

However, that won't take leaf shutter inefficiency into account, which will vary by both aperture and shutter speed. A slow-opening shutter might miss the peak intensity of the flash altogether, or severely attenuate it.

(snip)

 

Blue line is a real trace from a storage oscilloscope capture of a speedlight flash at full output.

 

(snip)

 

You mean not a digital oscilloscope like everyone else uses now?

 

Storage CRTs are old technology, like film cameras.

(Well, not quite as old.)

If - big if - the Retina actually reaches 1/500th at top speed, there may be a slight drop in exposure with the flash at full output.

 

The myth is that electronic flash has a duration of 1/1000th of a second or shorter, but this isn't true.

All the speedlights and portable electronic flashes that I've tested (more than a dozen over several makes) still have noticeable light output at more than 4 milliseconds after triggering.

[ATTACH=full]1361815[/ATTACH]

Blue line is a real trace from a storage oscilloscope capture of a speedlight flash at full output.

X axis is time in milliseconds.

 

You can see that at 2 ms, = 1/500th shutter speed, the light output has only reached about 70% of its cumulative exposure.

 

Add to that the decreasing efficiency of leaf shutters at higher speeds, and you've got a recipe for underexposure.

 

So, unless there's a real need for a high shutter speed, like balancing flash with ambient light, then it's probably best to stick with something like a 1/125th shutter speed that captures about 90 ~ 95% of the total light output.

 

For the sake of your camera; I'm pleased that that theory wasn't put to the test!

 

I feel fairly confident that the Retina reaches at least close to 1/500, as I had it CLAd a bit ago and it was brought to spec when it was done.

 

I haven’t finished the roll of film as of yet, but now that I’ve played around with it, the whole setup is a bit impractical to use with any frequency with the camera. The 522 flash with the retina reflex III is incredibly heavy and so I’d only use it occasionally. I agree with others too that a slower shutter speed would probably be better in most situations to capture some of the ambient light available.

Most of those old Sunpak flashes just keep on working. If unused for a while you might have to leave it on for a while to reform the capacitors. FWIW, my 70's vintage Supak 311 and Sunpak 511 still work properly. I have a Wein safe sync adapter to use old flashes on my digital gear or later film cameras. My favorite combination for many years was Sunpak AP 52 connected via safe sync to EOS Rebel K.

Shutter speed is a complicated question for leaf shutters.

There is a note about it in the data sheets for some films, at small apertures.

 

As well as I know, they include half the time it takes to open and close, such that it is the integral of open time is right.

But in the case of smaller aperture, once the shutter is more open than the aperture, all the light goes through, so the effective open time is longer.

 

That leaves the question about how one calibrates a leaf shutter.

Does the meter properly include open and close time?

You mean not a digital oscilloscope like everyone else uses now?

I missed out the 'digital' part. I took that as read.

 

Obviously I didn't take a picture of a CRT screen and digitise it.

That leaves the question about how one calibrates a leaf shutter.

With great difficulty!

Does the meter properly include open and close time?

Nope.

 

FWIW, my experience with old hammerhead flashes of any make, including Metz, is that their light output is nothing like as claimed. Maybe one stop more than a decent camera-maker's hotshoe speedlight. Frankly, not worth the extra weight and wait (lengthy recycle time).

 

Just save yourself the hassle and get a film-era Nikon or Canon speedlight/speedlite. Used prices are less than a new battery pack or synch lead for a Mecablitz.

Edited October 24, 2020 by rodeo_joe|1