serious meter failure d700 with 70-300 4,5-5,6G

Discussion in 'Nikon' started by n-j, Apr 28, 2010.

  1. n-j

    n-j

    i recently switched back from canon to nikon ( d700 ); best thing i've done for the last years;
    in my "analoge days" i used nikon and kept all my equipment; however i had to get some new lenses too and started with the standards 24-70 the 50/1.4, 15mm (sigma) and a "cheap" AF-S VR Nikkor 70-300 4,5-5,6G; as i didn't wanted to invest in some "serious" tele yet. the lens behaves quite nice though, better than i expected for that price, zoom is fast IF is really good but there are some issues with metering with this lens; every single picture i take is overexposed by about 3 to 4 stops; i "overrule" that by stopping it down, but that's no solution ?!
    so my question is : did I miss something ? metering mode doesn't make big difference; i even tried the lens in "P" mode ( ev compensation is set to zero ) -> same effect;
    reinstalled the firmware twice and reseted all my settings, didn't help ?
    all my other lenses even the fish behave like expected only this lens troubles me.
    so being on nikon again for only about 10 days maybe it's my fault; has anybody an hint for me or is this lens dead ?
    regards.
    Moderator note: For future reference to others reading this thread, please note the issues regarding use of an aftermarket focus screen toward the bottom of this discussion.
     
  2. When you take the lens off and manually operate the aperture tab on the rear of the lens, does it travel smoothly, as freely, and as far as on your other lenses? It sounds like it's getting hung up, which is preventing the lens from stopping down correctly. This would be a mechanical issue on the lens, if I'm right.
     
  3. n-j

    n-j

    i already checked the aperture mechanism via the "preview" ; the "lever" on the rear moves supersmooth; no problem there;
    tried an old 70-210 ( 5-contact-pins ? don't know the year AF 70-210 1:4/5.6 push/pull) same effect;
    just took a few pix with all lenses on a gray-card; all ( the 50 1,4G, sigma 24-70 ex, 15mm fish 2,8) measure the same stops/time and work well, the two tele ( AF-S VR Nikkor 70-300 4,5-5,6G & 70-210); both overexposed ?
     
  4. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    First of all, you need to figure out whether this is a metering problem or the aperture mechanical link has problems.
    Try a "sunny 16" situation and see whether the metering reading is correct. E.g., Outdoor in a sunny day, you should get 1/200 sec and f16 @ ISO 200.
    Then check the lever at the 9 o'clock position on the inside of the lens mount; make sure that is not bent. Also check the corresponding lever on the lens in the mount area and make sure that is not bent. Those are faily common issues. Capture some images with those lenses wide open and see whether you still have over-exposure issues. A clear sign is that the over-exposure only happens when you stop down to f8, f11, etc. Also check the depth of field preview function and see whether the aperture stops down properly.
     
  5. n-j

    n-j

    Also check the depth of field preview function and see whether the aperture stops down properly.​
    I already posted that I didi so and it works on all lenses;
    Then check the lever at the 9 o'clock position on the inside of the lens mount;​
    the lever is not bent; the only thing i could report to this is that when i move it down it stops about 3mm before the slot it goes trough ends. but if i copare the way the lever on the lens and the one in cam go I'd say it's the same distance;
    First of all, you need to figure out whether this is a metering problem or the aperture mechanical link has problems.​
    if it would be a metering problem why would all the other lenses work; i just tested another d700/70-300 combo in a nearby store today ( indoors, no natural light ) everything was fine; coming home I simulated the same level of light; guess what... thanks anyway;
    I did another ouutdoor shot today sunlight; straight into the green grass @ f11 / ISO 200 ( metering mode in exif says pattern / lens @ 250mm) "P" mode gave me 1/25 60% blown out ; same scene/settings but "M" f11/ - t 1/80 ;fine.
    so what now should i go to the store i bought the body and tell them that everything is fine exept the two lenses; one i didn't buy at this store and the other one thats older than the store itself; or should i get another lens;
    I don't get it why do 3 lenses work perfectly and two ( both tele ) just fail ?
     
  6. Both lenses that don't work are f5.6 at the long end. What is the 24-70mm one ? There must be a common factor. Just gotta' find it.
    You mentioned you tried another D700 with another 70-300mm lens and it worked. Have you tried YOUR lenses on that other D700 ? It's best to change only ONE variable at a time. Do you have to put in the lens data for the D700 ? If so, did you set the SAME thing on the other D700 ? It's a variable f stop zoom. Could the camera think it is a fixed F4 ?
     
  7. Are you shooting in Matrix mode? Are you shooting a large amount of 'sky' in your test shots? Is your "over exposure" being discovered in the camera's little monitor or on your computer?
     
  8. It seems to me that the common thread between the lenses that are having problems is that they have a max aperture of f4. The other lenses might not be having the same issues because they have a wider max aperture and allow more light to reach the sensor. You might try manually stopping down one of your lenses that has an aperture ring to f4 and see what kind of exposures the meter gives you, but don't take any pictures with the lens stopped down this way as this can damage the camera.
     
  9. Now that I think about it, my suggestion wouldn't work because the camera will still keep the lens wide open regardless of what you set on the aperture ring. It only stops down when the shutter is tripped.
     
  10. n-j

    n-j

    Do you have to put in the lens data for the D700​
    no, nor for old 70-210 or the new generation 70-300; I think they didn't do anything to the d700 I tried in that store; it's kind of a mega-store, the kind one sells mp3 players one day and works in the cam-dep. the next day;
    i just grabbed the body and the lens and tried;
    What is the 24-70mm one ?​
    the 24-70 is f2,8 ; the 50 is f 1,4 the fish is f2,8
    It's a variable f stop zoom. Could the camera think it is a fixed F4 ?​
    the exif say no; meaning that the f-stop is displayed beyond f4; telling from DOF I don't think the cam is stuck on f4.
    I just realized that the, what nikon calls "analog-digital-exposure-display" ( the EV indicator ) flashes the moment i mount one of these lemses; the nikon manual says :
    If the limits of the exposure metering system are exceeded, the displays will flash.
    well it flashes but it doesn't say "HI" or "LO" except I push it to these limits manual; i'm going nuts here;
    found another of lens of my old stuff a 35-70 1:3.3-4.5;
    doesn't meter like the new generation but at least nothing is out of bounds and no flashing indicators; seems to be the same generation of lens like the old 70-200;
    was so happy to handheld a good, solid cam again ( after all that canon ..... ) and just 10 days later problems continue; I think th eonly real thing is going back to my first cam ever, an old kodak instamatic; never had any problem with this one...
    thanks for all your help so far ...
     
  11. Here's one shot from a D700 and the AF-S 70-300mm VR G Nikkor lens. At ISO 5000, the lens seems to be sharp enough, and the exposure is good.
    00WLu0-240199684.jpg
     
  12. Is the meter readout correct? You need to determine if the lens makes the meter reading wrong or it's only wrong because the the lens doesn't stop down to the same aperture as the display.
     
  13. n-j

    n-j

    so; past midday now and i shot some test shots; left the exif anyway;
    measured on a grey card; worked for every lens except the 70-300; did some spot, center and pattern metering;
    see yourself; the cam seems to be ok; shot againt the sun in"P" f22 with the sigma 24-70 1:2.8 & flash; all pics are rendered straight out, no settings in conversion;
    [​IMG]
    Exposure Time: 1/250 sec
    F-Number: f/22.0
    Exposure Program: Normal Program
    ISO Speed Rating: 200
    Lens Aperture: f/22.0
    Exposure Bias: 0 EV
    ____________________________________________________________
    the 24-70-greycard-test
    [​IMG]
    Exposure Time: 1/250 sec
    F-Number: f/16.0
    Exposure Program: Normal Program
    ISO Speed Rating: 200
    Lens Aperture: f/16.0
    Exposure Bias: 0 EV
    ____________________________________________________________
    the 50-greycard-test
    [​IMG]
    Exposure Time: 1/160 sec
    F-Number: f/16.0
    Exposure Program: Normal Program
    ISO Speed Rating: 200
    Lens Aperture: f/16.0
    ____________________________________________________________
    the 70-300-greycard-test
    [​IMG]
    Horizontal Resolution: 240 dpi
    Vertical Resolution: 240 dpi
    Image Created: 2010:04:29 13:50:43
    Exposure Time: 1/15 sec
    F-Number: f/16.0
    Exposure Program: Normal Program
    ISO Speed Rating: 200
    Lens Aperture: f/16.0
    Exposure Bias: 0 EV
    just to show that its possible to expose with that lens (70-300) , ignoring all indications;
    [​IMG]
    Exposure Time: 1/125 sec
    F-Number: f/16.0
    Exposure Program: Manual
    ISO Speed Rating: 200
    Lens Aperture: f/16.0
    Exposure Bias: 0 EV
    @70mm
    anyone has a clue ?
     
  14. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Exposure Time: 1/15 sec
    F-Number: f/16.0
    Exposure Program: Normal Program
    ISO Speed Rating: 200​
    This combo makes absolutely no sense. You had bright sunlight. @ISO 200 and f16, you should be using something like 1/200 sec. It should surprise no one that 1/15 sec gives you about 4 stops of over exposure.
    In other words, the problem is in the metering when those lenses are used. We are (or at least I am) not sure exactly what the problem is yet, but it has been narrowed down.
     
  15. n-j

    n-j

    @ bebu
    Is the meter readout correct? You need to determine if the lens makes the meter reading wrong or it's only wrong because the the lens doesn't stop down to the same aperture as the display.​
    the previous pics are all corresponding to the meter-output; as they are shot in "P" with ev=0; measured on the greycard; only the last picture ist totally against the readout as i would expose the scene by " my experience" so these settings were choosen "blind"; cam told me i was totally underexposed;
    I took f16 for all the test shots; also tried lower and higher apertures, same results, won't spam you with images.
    @shun cheung
    the problem is in the metering when those lenses are used.​
    thats what this post is about, the question is; is it the lens or body that freaks out ?! all the other lenses wor fine ( more or less ) ?
    regards
     
  16. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    thats what this post is about, the question is; is it the lens or body that freaks out ?! all the other lenses wor fine ( more or less ) ?​
    First of all, it is very difficult for me or anybody else to diagnose your problem from half way, 1/3 of the way around the world. I would try those lenses on another Nikon body and see whether they also violate "sunny 16" by so many stops.
    Another small thing to check is Custom Setting b8; make sure you are not oveririding matrix. But that seems unlikely to be the problem because it should equally affect your other lenses.
    Beyond that, if you can find other tele to check your camera body, you can try that. But you are probably looking into sending everything in for a check up.
     
  17. Have you considered that maybe you're getting this strange behaviour because the lens is effectively a DX lens? There is a setting on the D700 to tell the camera how to behave when mounting DX lenses - have you tried playing around with that setting and see what is what? I'm guessing that maybe, with the lens metering at a much smaller proportion of the sensor, with the incorrect settings in the camera, the sensor may be seeing the remaining, uncovered, part of the sensor as black and, in its effort to get the 18% grey, it overlights the other part, blowing your image?
    Seriously, check that!
     
  18. Marios
    The 70-300 is not a DX lens. Works just fine on a F5
     
  19. n-j

    n-j

    because the lens is effectively a DX lens?​
    copy that; no DX : lens
     
  20. But how about the setting on the camera to tell it that this is not a DX?
     
  21. n-j

    n-j

    is FX
     
  22. From what you have done with this and other lenses, the most likely culprit is the lens communication with the body or since the older 70-210mm seems to have the same problem it may be the camera setting that is telling it to expose this way with longer lenses. Have you tried a complete camera reset to default?
    Also being a long lens the 70-300 will have a tendency to expose a little more in many cases because it is "semi spot metering" but not to the degree of your examples
     
  23. What happens if you tape off the lens-camera contacts with clear tape and shoot in manual mode after entering lens data?
     
  24. Can you check and see if the lens aperture doesn't open fully when the it's mounted on the camera?
     
  25. Something causes the camera to choose 1/15 sec at F16 instead of 1/250 sec at f16 when certain lenses are used. The other lenses work fine and meter correctly but the tele zooms don't work. Go to the store where you purchased the D700 and try a new 70-300 lens. If you notice the same problem in the store ask them to fix the camera under warranty. The store person will be able to comfirm the problem. When you get the camera back it should work with your lenses.
     
  26. It sure sounds like there is some kind of communication breakdown between this lens and your body. It could be mechanical or it could be electronic.
    Something you should you can check is if the contacts on the mount side of the lens are clean. You can rub them gently with a cloth and/or perhaps with a mild solvent.
    If these simple fixes don't work, I would try to exchange it. Obviously the lens is misbehaving, as other ones meter correctly.
     
  27. n-j

    n-j

    Have you tried a complete camera reset to default?​
    i already re-installed the firmware twice, reseted all my custom settings, didi i miss something else ?
    here are the news
    tried another copy at the store; same effect; ( my cam / new 70-300 lens )
    [​IMG]
    1/80 sec
    F-Number: f/11.0
    Exposure Program: Normal Program
    ISO Speed Rating: 200
    Lens Aperture: f/11.0
    Exposure Bias: 0 EV
    -> returned the lens as the guy in the shop meant that this lens wouldn't be meant for a cam like a d700 ? ?
    he gave me the new 70-200 to test it; awsome lens; spot-metered for the highlights in the golden areas, thats why the image is not exposed correctly, but at least no overexposure at all; took about 20-30 shots in all modes, conditions and combinations, didn't fail;
    [​IMG]
    so driving home, thinking bout the investment of €2500, i decided to head for that superstore again ( another big electronic store you'd never buy a cam as a serious photographer there )
    they have a d700 & the 70-300 lens to test; so i took my body with me asked them to compare both cams and did another simple greycard test.
    1) shops cam & shops lens
    Exposure Time: 1/20 sec
    F-Number: f/6.3
    Exposure Program: Manual
    ISO Speed Rating: 1250
    Lens Aperture: f/6.3
    Exposure Bias: 0 EV
    1. [​IMG]
    so, doesn't really look nice but better than:
    2) my cam and shop's lens
    0.3 sec
    F-Number: f/5.6
    Exposure Program: Normal Program
    ISO Speed Rating: 1250
    Lens Aperture: f/5.6
    Exposure Bias: 0 EV


    [​IMG]
    the funny thing is that when i reviewed the exif data the stock's cam said :
    Focal Length (35mm Equiv): 450 mm ; so their cam was set to DX !
    shall i still give my body away for inspection; right now i'd really need it; or do you suppose that this is really a "NON d700-lens?"
    best regards and thank all of you for your contribution !
     
  28. n-j

    n-j

    just for those who are curious bout the new AF-S NIKKOR 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II open @ 2.8 >klick
    best regards
     
  29. Your lenses are fine. The problem is with your camera. Your camera metering is wrong (overexpose) when working with any lens that has minimum aperture as small as F32 (and it is ok otherwise)
     
  30. If I understand this properly your new lenses are metering fine. The metering problem only occurs with your older lenses. Are your older lenses CPU'd or are they just AI indexed lenses. If they are older AI index lenses then you must enable the aperture ring from the custom settings menu for them to work properly. If they are CPU'd lenses but non Nikon lenses they may need to be re-chipped to be compatible. I've only ever seen this with Sigma lenses not Tamron.
     
  31. n-j

    n-j

    my older lenses are cpu-lenses;
    the 70-300 is a brand new one ( VR II );


    @john
    Your camera metering is wrong (overexpose) when working with any lens that has minimum aperture as small as F32 (and it is ok otherwise)​
    sorry but i don't see the connection of a min aperture and proper metering, could you please explain that to me; as it seems to be the only connection by now; all the lenses i tried and that failed were min f32 ( didn't mention that i even tried a 130 1:3.5 EX macro; stops down till f32 too ! and guess what...) the 70-200g ed vrII stops @f22.
    I hate to give my new gear to service;
     
  32. nikolai:
    I hope cleaning/checking the electronic contacts at the mount can help. If the problem is deeper than that, I really dont know how to fix it. I guess an easy way to fix the problem is to dial in -3 Exp Comp everytime you use one of those lenses (with F32)
     
  33. n-j

    n-j

    hi john; i'm already rid of this lens; the cam is 10 days old; the lens was 4days old; of course i double checked everything, cleaned all contacts, checked aperture preview, all levers,...
    i'll go to my local store tomorrow, they shall exchange the body if their service allows; of course the -3exp would work but what about getting creative ? i don't spend my money on workaround solutions;
    like a friend of mine stated some days ago; i'm too poor to spend my money on cheap equipment.
    i even contacted the local nikon service department today, they didn't know about any issues and told me to exchange lens; so now i have to send them my body; lucky me;
    regards
     
  34. I do think that you're lucky to figure that out before it's too late. This is exactly where the guarantee is for. Hope they cover shipping and all. I strongly believe that my local store here would exchange the camera for a new one without any problem
     
  35. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Nikolai, I am afraid that it has reached the point that any further discussion or suggestion in this forum cannot help you any more. Please get your stuffs replaced, exchanged, or repaired, whatever is appropriate.
     
  36. n-j

    n-j

    well I have to shun;
    but i guess it was a very constructive discussion, so thanks again to all that tried to help, and viewed all these ... " examples"...
    best regards nj
     
  37. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    It can be helpful if you can let us know what the problem(s) are and the resolution, but this seems to be a very uncommon problem.
     
  38. Nikolai,
    If the shop cam and shop lens worked, but then YOUR cam and the same shop lens did not, then the issue is with your camera. No further debate, I think.
    Now, I may be wrong, but I'm not sure if installing a new firmware erases any settings you may have programmed in. I understand there is a "factory reset" that all DSLRs have. Check the manual for that. If after doing so doesn't fix it, then the camera DOES have an issue that needs to be taken care of. Either a return to store where purchased for one that works properly, or send to Nikon for fix.
     
  39. n-j

    n-j

    CONCLUSION

    at my store, they offered me to exchange the body for a new one, as i gathered things to fill the nikon box, i realized, .. "hey got to change the >focus screen< back "; which i am used to work with; so I changed the " brightcreen #5 ( labeled for d700 ) for the original (nikon) one and thought, just take a reference pic for dust,.. so firest i mounted the 50mm, which behaved somehow "unusual" (even more nicer) so i took one of the bad lenses, the old AF 70-210 1:4-5.6 and voila; no faulty metering any more ! tested it on the 70-300 too; works just fine as expected;
    to tell in advance

    i didn't fail changing the focus screen;this was not the first time i did that, the alignment of the FS was correct, according to the indicator ( red mark ) and as precise as possible; it was fixed and at its place; it always worked perfect for manual focus, the FS was clean and no dust, grease, scratches .. on it ; i used latex gloves and a wooden stick they supplied to work with.
    one guy at the shop stated he would have the same FS on a d700 without any problems ?
    ...well just a statement from a guy who sells that cr** (that worried me the last days) ; they always have tested and owned everything; we know that...
    thats the end of the story; cam's fine; FS is gone;
    thanks again for your kind aid and tips;
    best regards
     
  40. So, the add-on focus screen was not compatible with those zooms ? Did it say anywhere to not use lenses that ( ....... ) with it ?
    Wow.
    Glad you figured it out !
     
  41. n-j

    n-j

    the manual didn't say anything bout this issue and i still dont understand why the "cheaper" tele - lenses failed but the faster 70-200 ED did it's job even with the brightscreen FS;
    tested the VRII in/by the store and had the "older" 70-200ED for the whole weekend now, works perfect; even the 70-300 i tested after changing the FS worked flawless ?!
    the FS must have had some bad reflection at some point which affected the sensor through the mirror; but this is certainly no issue of focal length as the 70-200 worked well when the others failed at the same FL; i even tested an older NIKKOR 35-70 f1:3.3-4.5 and this one worked without effect too; so "starting - f" seems to have no direct impact either ...
    well someone might figure out, i'm just glad that my gear is ok and all others be warned;
    cheers
     
  42. Which model focus screen caused the problems? It might be worth modifying the title of this thread to make it easier to search in case anyone else experiences a similar problem.
     
  43. The lower cost lenses probably had a larger max f stop. Such as f5.6. I think all the rest were less than that. I know some older focus screens for my F4 were not recommended for use with slower lenses. Mostly due to the middle going black.
     
  44. n-j

    n-j

    Which model focus screen caused the problems? It might be worth modifying the title of this thread to make it easier to search in case anyone else experiences a similar problem.​
    i already mentioned it but here again;
    BRIGHTSCREEN nr.05 : SPLIT IMAGE WITH MICROPRISM COLLAR

    .
    The lower cost lenses probably had a larger max f stop. Such as f5.6​
    well at least it worked with an old 1:3.3-4.5 but failed with the 1:4-5.6 ?
    1:4 isn't supposed to be a "lower cost" or consumer lens !
     
  45. Certainly glade to see this one resolved. I was getting a headache.
     

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