Profoto or Broncolor?

<p>Hi there, some urgent questions:</p>

<p>1) I was just about to pull the trigger on two Profoto Acute 2400R

kits when the salesperson (who is a working professional photographer)

strongly recommended that I ditch the Profoto idea and go with

Broncolor instead because (1) It's only marginally more expensive than

Profoto, (2) Broncolor has the best light modifiers, and (3) Broncolor

has the best color. He mentioned that most glamour and fashion

photography (which is what I shoot) is done with Broncolor. I was told

that the Profoto D4 (their premier pack) pales in comparison to

Broncolor's offerings. Can I get some feedback from you guys out

there? I'm confused. My budget's $10,000 for lights. I already own two

Profoto Compacts and a couple modifiers. Which path to take?</p>

<p>2a) If I were to stick with Profoto, which combo would be ideal?</p>

<blockquote>

<p> a) 2x Profoto Acute 1200R kits<br />

c) 2x Profoto Acute 2400R kits<br />

b) one of each: 1x Profoto Acute 1200R kit, 1x Profoto Acute 2400R

kit<br />

d) something other than the above, given my budget and subject

(portraits, fashion, and food)</p>

</blockquote>

<p>2b) If Broncolor, what would be the best setup for my budget?</p>

The most honest salefolks are the people that will be accurate about their competitors product, and this guy to me hasn't been completely fair/honest in comparing Broncolor to Profoto. I don't know about this situation, but with folks in sales, there's the potential for them steering you to their product/the gear they make the most money on/what their boss wants them to push.

 

Profoto's ringlight is the 'standard bearer' for ringlights, Broncolor's light mods are way more pricey than Profoto, and to say that Broncolor has the best light mods is a blanket generalization, did he tell you HOW the D4 'pales in comparison' to the Broncolor packs? I'd seriously like to know, because I don't believe that.

 

Check out the cost for replacement tubes for the different brands, also their various light mods....................................He mentioned that 'most glamour and fashion photography (which is what I shoot) is done with Broncolor',....................how can anybody say that?................This is just another generalization, unless someone can prove otherwise with 'cold, hard, numbers.

 

I don't think you should discount Profoto becuase of what he said, because BOTH brands are both great, I think that Profoto is better proposition particularly in terms of cost effectiveness w/their midrange Acute 2 packs,.................... did you know that many rental houses rent out the Acute packs,.......they WOULD NOT do that if they packs weren't robust.

 

You have 10K for this, you don't need to spend the whole $10,000 to get some good stuff, I had $100,000, and I was in your shoes, I would get the Acutes,...............in my shoes now, with already having the 1200 Acute Alfa pack, and a 2400 Acute 2, and somebody giving me 100K, I would go out and get the D4 pack since I could then use my Acute ringlight and my other heads so that I essentially hit the ground running.

 

I think both systems are dynamite systems, I don't think the salesperson is giving you a fair picture of both systems and from the way you represented what he said, I'd say he was trying to sway you over to Broncolor. The light quality of Profotog gear is just as good as ANYTHING out there, period.

 

Also, if I were in your shoes, I'd give the strongest consideration to the opinion of folks who aren't trying to sell you something.

 

Get what you want regardless of what I or anybody else says, but once you firm up in terms of what you want, don't let somebody talk you out of something until you've checked out for yourself, whether or not they've told you the truth.

In terms of the second part of your question, I'd say with the wide gamut of subject matter, you'd want to wait for the various promotions that come up w/Profoto, past promotions throw in a free head with a complete kit, saving you the xxx for buying a head 'piecemeal', say you get a 2400 Acute 2R and by way of discount/promotion, you get a great deal including the 2400 pack and 3/4 heads, then finding a deal on a discounted 1200 pack is a great proposition, give you 3/4 heads, a primary pack, and a back-up.

 

If it was me, I'd make on of these lights a ringlight(some folks love the effect), if you get this light and the other lights as part of a promotion/discounted package, then you won't have to purchase the ringlight full price/piecemeal, if somebody shows up later a portrait shot w/a ringlight, and tells you they want their portrait shot 'just like that'.

 

Which brings up an important point, what really cuts into your profits for any particular shoot, is when you have to go out and get something JUST before you do a shoot, that you don't already have, doing that always pisses me off. What's cheaper? Already having a ringlight, or having to go out and rent one for somebody who wants that 'look'. I'm not saying get a ringlight, just consider this example in looking at what you might want to get to give you flexibility for shoots now, and shoots later.

 

I think you can get 3/4 heads including a ringlight, a 2400 Acute 2R, and a 1200 Acute 2R, a chimera softbox, and the Profoto beauty light(the reflector), for around 6K, maybe less, IF you waint for the deals.................leaving you 4K to the good.

 

Anyway this is the way I'd consider it, good luck.

 

www.imageandartifact.bz

Thanks for your informative response, Jonathan! Your insight, along with several others (on other forums), has steered me back onto the Profoto path. You bring up some very good points. This guy seemed very honest and mentioned his experience with a top fashion photographer (don't remember his name) who switched from Profoto to Broncolor and was amazed at the improvement in quality and consistency. He also mentioned that Broncolor is running a promotion right now for 25% off their entire product line, which makes it more competitive with Profoto.

 

Having done quite a bit of research regarding the Profoto line both online and off, I had narrowed it down to the Acutes and the D4. Some people have recommended the Pro-7's over the Acute and D4 due to shorter flash duration and faster recycle times, which is certainly advantageous for fashion. But for $10,000 I could only get one Pro-7A 2400 pack ($6600).

 

My question for you now would be, how would you spend 10k? What kind of set up? Two Acute 2R 1200s, two Acute 2R 2400s, one of each, or a D4 and maybe an Acute 2R 1200? Keep in mind that I have a Compact 300s and 600s currently. Should I invest in the D4 or settle for the Acutes?

I guess our posts got criss-crossed. Thanks again for your advice on this matter! I already have the beauty light, and definitely plan to get a ringflash, since two clients have asked me for that effect, and I had to say "sorry."

 

The current deal offers a 2x3 softbox, speedring, 2 Profoto Maxi-stands, and a 41" umbrella with purchase of an Acute kit.

 

Which softbox would you recommend? Chimera, Profoto, Plume, and Elinchrom all seem to come more or less equally recommended.

'who switched from Profoto to Broncolor and was amazed at the improvement in quality and consistency.'...................WOW!!!....................I just don't believe that statement, and I think it's baseless hype. If he's talking Broncolor versus Britek, they HEY you got it!!!

 

I mentioned the Acutes particularly if you consider getting the D4 later becuase you can use both systems w/the same heads, not so w/the Pro 7, for any more particulars on the D4, I would defer to Mr Vener who's had his D4 for 18 months I believe. My thinking is that unless you're shooting 16hrs a day, every day, week after week, then get the higher end packs, if this isn't the case, my feeling is that the Acutes will handle what you want to do, and if you do upgrade later to the D4, you've got money left to get it.

 

If you call up the dealers, they WILL 'dicker' w/you, when I was shopping around for my 2400 Acute 2 pack, I called up the B and 'you know who' in NY and asked them if the demo 2400 pack they had was an unused 'open box' discount w/warranty, and they told it was up front. Waiting til the right deal comes along will save you a fortune.

 

The achilles heel of packs is the fact that if the pack goes dead you're out 3 lights, get a primary and a back-up, even though your monolights might fill that role giving you time to make later purchases only when the right deal comes along.

'Chimera, Profoto, Plume, and Elinchrom all seem to come more or less equally recommended.'..........................they all do different things, and they're all dynamite, you probably want to take quite a bit of time to decide between what these manufacturers have to offer in terms of your pallete. I think it's a must that you see these things in person, to see how ez/hard they are to set-up/to use and their effect on modeling.

 

Good luck.

 

www.imageandartifact.bz

"If you call up the dealers, they WILL 'dicker' w/you, when I was shopping around for my 2400 Acute 2 pack, I called up the B and 'you know who' in NY and asked them if the demo 2400 pack they had was an unused 'open box' discount w/warranty, and they told it was up front. Waiting til the right deal comes along will save you a fortune."

 

What do you mean by "dicker"? Sorry my English is not so good. Do you mean that B&? lied? My local dealer is offering a demo 1200 kit and they insist it will have full warranty and be eligible for the promo. It's at substantial discount so I was seriously thinking about jumping on it and buying either a Acute 2400R to go with it or a D4.

 

Thanks again Jonathan, your answers are the most informative I've ever received!

I would seriously consider grabbing a pair of these:<br>

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productList&A=buyUsed&Q=163674<br>

I think dicker = haggle.

Stan-

 

After alot of research, I bought the D4 1200R. I use it in conjunction with a Pocket Wizard Transmitter, and a Sekonic 588R. I use the old ABS lights and plan to upgrade to the D4 lights at some point. (I also have an Acute 2400 Pack that uses the ABS heads if I need alot of power). My third pack is a Profoto 7b with two Pro 7 heads. All of my modifiers work on all the heads with the different packs. They are all very consistent. Profoto even sells a blank mount so you can customize some wicked light modifier of your own and properly mount it on a Profoto head! I have two of these...just in case! This is the beauty of Profoto when you make the commitment. So they come out with a D5....the modifiers probably still work and the heads probably still work too! You can afford to "leg" into the system rather than having to dump on EBAY or trade...get soaked and start over. I bought my ABS heads and my 7b pack and pro 7 heads as demo from Midwest Photo Exchange at steep discounts relative to new. Sure, they are not the newest models but they do a great job and their performance is road tested. My D4 was new and I went with the 1200 because I wanted to shoot more wide open and have greater control over my fill at lower power. Also...I would argue that most fashion and glamour photogs on location use the 7b hands down...watch the SI videos...not for the women...but to see what the photogs are using...Profoto 7B. Looking at what rental houses rent out is an excellent example. They want equipment that works and will last...I see many rental houses renting Profoto. I'm confident that you won't go wrong with Profoto. Also...I have never used Broncolor so for me to rip on Broncolor performance and consistency would be wrong. If you want the ultimate flexibility, check out a demo Profoto 7B with 2 Pro 7 heads...Battery or A/C...only two heads...lots of adjustments possible...very tough....

<I> the salesperson (who is a working professional photographer) strongly recommended

that I ditch the Profoto idea and go with Broncolor instead because (1) It's only marginally

more expensive than Profoto, (2) Broncolor has the best light modifiers, and (3) Broncolor

has the best color. He mentioned that most glamour and fashion photography (which is

what I shoot) is done with Broncolor. I was told that the Profoto D4 (their premier pack)

pales in comparison to Broncolor's offerings. </I>

 

A.) I am a professional photographer and I don't have to rely on a job working in a camera

store to pay my rent. I'm not biased: both systems , especially at the top, are terrific. As to

his claim that most fashion and glamour photographers use Broncolor -- in my experience

that simply isn't true at least in the USA. probably the vast majority of "fashion work in the

USA is shot with Speedotrons. But check with some of the big rental studios in New York

City and Los Angeles to confirm this.<P> B.) to the specific comments:

1.) <I>Broncolor is only marginally more expensive than Profoto</I><P>Yes and no.<P>

2.)<I>Broncolor has the best light modifiers</I><P> Not true. In point of fact Balcar has

the best light modifiers -- really great lighting tools that no one else offers. But I give

profoto a definite edge over Broncolor.<P><I>3.) Broncolor has the best color. </I><P>

Again that is a very arguable point. Broncolor light has a very technical feel. Profoto light

has always been known for excellent skin tones, which is why people like Annie Leibowitz,

Mark Seliger, and Albert Watson use Profoto.<P><I>4.) I was told that the Profoto D4

(their premier pack) pales in comparison to Broncolor's offerings.</I><P> Again that is

very

arguable: for fashion and portrait work the D4 is not what I would choose out of the

Profoto line. I'd go with the Pro 7 units. The D4 is very tunable as are the top of the line

Broncolors. But you aren't looking at the top of the line in either. You are looking at the

mid range gear. Unless you are planning on buying the top of the range, buying on that

basis is like buying a midrange Chevy because Chevy makes the Corvette.<P>If you

already own a couple of Profoto Compacts and modifiers economically it makes more

sense to stay with Profoto. Three real world advantages to Profoto over Broncolor : a more

common sync connection to the pack; The built in 32 channel Pocketwizard receivers in

the Acute 2R packs and the D4R packs; lots of rental shops stock them; The way light

modifiers attach to the heads --it is simply the best in the business because of how strong

& secure the color is.<P> I'd get three 1200 2r kits and at least one bi-tube

head for those times when you need to put more than 1200 watt-seconds into a single

head (you connect one pack to each flash tube) or to get really really short flash duration

(frozen splashes, people jumping --ala'

Lois Greenfield (who uses top of the line Broncolor packs and bi-tube heads).

<blockquote> I am a professional photographer and I don't have to rely on a job working in a camera store to pay my rent</blockquote>Aye, that says it all. It's like taking careers advice from someone who ended up as a highschool careers advisor...

Re: Pro rental places in NY (or LA)

The premier rental flash system is Profoto Pro-7. Second broncolor, call whomever you

like (Industria, Pier 59, Milk in NY or Pix, Smashbox in LA).

As to my opinion (and I own Acute 2 and rent Pro-7).

The Acutes are reliable, travel easily, work with less Ampere (on locations) but flash time is

some what long (aka blurred images), the Pro-7 draw 20A, recycle super quick (versus D4

or bron, which take about double the time) and have a flash duration that freezes even

jump ropes (aka super sharp pictures, no motion blur).

As for light quality, if you use a lot of direct/hard lights the bron gives you a more precise

look (Avedon used it in his umbrellas) and you need less power (so the recycle time is

tolerable), if you use large soft light sources you need all the power you can get and

recycle as well as flash duration becomes an issue again. You pick...

<p>

I prefer the profoto set-ups because:<p>

1. I can use the same lightformes on every system (Compacts-Acute-D4-Pro-7)<p>

2. I can use Pro-7 heads on the battery system (pro-7b)<p>

3. I never had any serious reliability issues, not even with a generator (bron is very picky

about voltage spikes)<p>

4. I can rent it everywhere (but in Speedotron country, wherever that is)<p>

5. You own already some compatible pieces<p>

<p>

I could see myself arguing for bron<p>

1. For beauty and stills<p>

2. With harder, direct or close light<p>

3. In a controlled studio power setup<p>

4. For 1/10 stop control<p>

5. Shooting with a "slow" set up (8x10)<p>

 

As a conclusion, I never liked the D4 (too slow, no color control) but love the Pro-7.

And I would save my money on the IR receivers build in, just get a Flash wizard kit for

$350 (it breaks you replace it and don't have to get your flash repaired). And for the

budget and a little, get 2 Pro7 1200 and two heads (maybe used, demo etc.). It'll last

forever. For soft boxes, they're all well made, test the light quality, I like the super

softness of the white chimeras and sometimes the Plumes for a more "contrasty/sparkely"

feel.

Cheers

MS

Stan, my apologies for not being clear, when I said that the dealers will 'dicker' with you, that's slang for their willingness to 'deal', negotiate on Profoto gear, I did this w/my 2400 Acute 2 pack, and in terms of the deals you've been offered, they sound legit.

 

I think you've gotten some great angles on Profoto gear from various folks who own and use Profoto, w/max power using both my Alfa and Acute 2 packs, I do most of my shooting @1/250sec which insures that the shutter time isn't messing w/flash duration, and that's perfect for me, I've never had a need for the Pro 7's performance, performance,...........that's not to say you won't need it, so I guess you gotta ask yourself if you need it, and will having that capability be worth the extra expense for the buying the Pro 7 over the Acutes.

 

It seems to me from everything that's been said in this thread, that there's an issue of just what performance you need/will need, and matching up the pack that will give that to you, so I guess it's a matter of just what is the 'outside envelope' for the way you shoot in terms of power, depth of field, and flash duration.

Wow, thanks to everyone for all the suggestions and viewpoints! I'm planning to go with Ellis' recommendation of three 1200 2r kits, the twin head, and a ringflash. With the bi-tube head, it seems that the Acute's weakness in flash duration is eliminated.

 

Jonathan: it's hard for me to gauge my need for a Pro 7's performance without using both the Pro 7 and Acutes extensively to find that "outside envelope." At this point, I guess it's more a matter of future growth potential in any given set up. The Acute's initial cost is lower, but it's capabilities will plateau sooner than the Pro 7's ever will. The problem, of course, is that if I sink into an Acute/D4 system, I won't be able to use the heads and some of the modifiers on a Pro-7 system.

 

Are there any performance differences between the Pro-7 and Acute/D4 heads? I would guess that the Pro-7 ringflash is superior to the Acute version.

 

Bron seems to be much more prevalent in Europe. Petter Hegre uses Broncolor Minicoms.

 

I should add that I will be shooting mostly digital with a Canon 1DSMK2 and a Lecia R9 DMR with some MF film thrown in.

 

I haven't had a problem yet since I've mostly used lower-powered monolights, but what's the best way to make sure I don't start a fire if I have 4000w/s worth of powerpacks plugged in? How many of you use your lights at home? I'm guessing I'll have to upgrade the electrical in my studio.

I've had my Alfa pack going on 7-8 yrs now, not a single missed pop in all those years, you and these packs won't be getting a divorce for a long time. I think you've made a good choice, best thing about Profoto is that WHATEVER you chose in the Profoto system wasn't going to be that bad of a choice.

 

Do me one favor, once you're in, will you tell us how like the packs?

 

 

www.imageandartifact.bz

Test the Best,

 

you got to compare the two brands if the decision has to been made.Profoto you already know, so rent a Grafit A2 RFS with Head and a Para FB either size you would need mostly for your work and play around some days.

After the trial you sure whats best for your situation.

As speaking of me - started with Bowens and made the switch to Bron in 1999, just love the quality Bron povides. If its the Mobil or the Grafit A2 RFS, recently got the Para FB 220 ( Turbine ).

As you go for Glamour and Fashion u just get to try the Para FB, ist like a modifiersystem by itself. One light but a lot a options of tuning it.

 

Regards from Munich

Thomas

I've been avidly reading this discussion. I know it was mentioned but I'm a little unclear: What's the best way to get a good deal on a kit? Dicker with the camera shop in my city, buy online from one of the big stores in NY, find something on ebay? Are there any other places to look?

And with the Acutes, you are able to dial down or up separatly each of the two lights you plug into it?

Hey Jen

 

Salesfolks size you up when you first contact them, they size up your experience, whether or not you know what you want, and your resolve, and bottom line is that if you're standing there in the store, or on the phone, they're spending time w/you to make a sale.

 

You notice that when Stan is talking w/the salesman, he happens to interject that Broncolor has a sale going on, which is an inducement after the fact to close this sale, it's another prompt to get Stan to 'bite', Stan thankfully didn't reach for his wallet, a good thing since he's still deciding on what he wants, which is what you can't forget when dealing with salefolks, it's what you want, not what the salesfolks want to sell you.

 

If you're tentative/unsure in going about negotiating for gear, they'll try to take over, tell you what's good, what you need, and what they're going to charge you for it. You can't bluff your way past a good salesman, you can however get a pretty good deal if you deal w/them from a position of strength, that is you research ad nauseum just what you want, and regardless of the suggested retail, the street prices/discounts/promitions that dealers are using to move their gear.

 

The salesman, who may be working on a commission, is trying desperately to make a sale, or he may not eat, he has an initial price(many times a ridiculous one) that he blurts out just to see if you 'bite', if you know better, know the street price, he'll back off that price, and he'll keep backing off until you get to the price his manager has told him not to go below, and then he'll tell you to 'get lost', but he doesn't start w/this price, he ends w/it.

 

Research all the deals, discounts, promitions, student discounts for the gear you want, from dealers/the stores near you/e-bay(last resort w/warranty ONLY, and preferably from a dealer selling on e-bay), and then deal from a position of stregth, find the lowest street price the gear is selling for, call up/contact/e-mail everybody, tell them that lowest price is the amount of money you have, and can they beat that deal, quite a few folks will not meet that price, or they counteroffer a higher figure, but the beauty of calling everybody is it only takes one to say yes to your offer and you gotten your deal.

 

It's work, it's drudgery, but it's that or paying suggested retail, so you have a choice, spend the time, or pay the money. Don't shy away from open box specials, or Demos w/warranties, if you can talk w/somebody regarding the pack in question, a Demo being sold as a demo w/warranty that hasn't been dropped, abused, is a good deal, also find out just how long a pack has been sitting gathering dust w/o being used, if it's been sitting long enough, this may ruin the pack, a pack that's been sitting a year is going to be trouble.

 

A new discounted pack or unused open box w/warranty is what you go after first, after you do this enough, you'll get experienced at it, and then you'll be so spoiled you'll be insulted at the proposition of paying suggested retail, EVEN IF YOU COULD AFFORD TO PAY THAT.

 

Good luck.

 

www.imageandartifact.bz

"Thanks again Jonathan, your answers are the most informative I've ever received!"

 

I completely agree with Stan! I absolutely love Jonathon Brewer's responses and I always look at old ones and learn so much.

 

Thank you - this is exactly what I was wondering about!

 

Jen

Hey guys, thanks for all the wonderfully informative responses. It was incredible! And I finally pulled the trigger today:

-3x Profoto Acute 2R 1200 kits

-Acute Ringflash (Would you recommend a reflector to go with it? Maybe either the soft or the wide-soft reflector, or does it work well enough naked?)

-4x6 Chimera softbox

 

I'm very excited!

 

Now the important issue is STANDS. What kind of stands are recommended? I hope to find something sturdy, yet somewhat portable.

Since I am heavily invested in Broncolor, I wanted to add a ringflash to my equipment but a new Broncolor ringflash would set me back way too much so I decided to buy the Profoto Acute 2 ringflash and I had it converted to accept Broncolor packs. Total cost of a new Profoto ringflash and the conversion came out to a little over $1100, about half of the cost for a new Broncolor ringflash. I've been using it the past 2 weeks and it works pefectly. The only drawback is that the power output is limited to only 2400ws per pop but that is plenty for my purpose.

Hi Guys,

 

I an experimental photographer who turned RECENTLY to be a full-time fashion & beauty photographer. A year ago I bought Bowens

Espirit Gemini 500 Ws 2 Head Kits. It's good for portraits, but I believe it's not up to high fashion shoot, especially in

outdoor locations.

 

I need your advice here; What's the ideal kit for high fashion shoot? Consider that I like to make it simple, basic setup with 3

lights @ the max. Also I will use reflectors, modifiers & soft-boxes. Finally for sure I want to have the ring flash,

something just like the ring flash pro from Bowens.

 

 

Thanks in advance for your prompt answer.

Ali