Photographing Grand Canyon and Yellowstone N. P.

Going on a tour trip this September (first 2 weeks) and we will be

going through Yellowstone National Park. It is planned to see the

guiesers (sp?) there. What else is there to see in that area?

 

Also going through Vegas. I'm sure there's lots to photograph there.

 

Part way into the trip we will be going to several outlook points of

the Grand Canyon. What I'm wondering is this. I've been told that

trying to capture the red colors on film seems to be difficult due

to the atmospheric haze. She said its more vivid in real life then

what you get on film. So first off would using Velvia 50 help this

problem? Also is it recommended to use a polarizer for the Grand

Canyon? Any tips on photographing this natural wonder? One camera

will be loaded with Velvia 50 and another with Reala 35mm. I do have

some Gold 100 I could use, but its quite grainy- so I was thinking

of sticking with Reala instead. The Velvia shots will probably be

normal to telephoto shots. I'm trying to rent a wide angle for it,

but may not be able to do it. That camera will be a P6x7 with 105

and 200 lenses. The 35mm will be 28-105, 50, and 100-300. I do have

digital, but because of card cost and making prints later- I may

just leave it at home. I am planning on bringing my Super 8mm camera

as well for moving shots and panoramics. I'm aware my bad is going

to be heavy. All I can bring is a smaller tripod.

That is my bag, not bad.

Scott, I'll leave the tech stuff to others. On your Yellowstone trip you should not miss the Grand Tetons area and Jackson Hole...only about 30-50 (?) miles south of the south enterance to the park. It's great. Have fun.

The Grand Canon depends a great deal on what the smelting plants down in Mexico are

doing the day before - I've been there on days where the haze is so bad color shots look

like TMAX. But, velvia and a good polarizer will help. Mind you, the canyon is, well, Grand

- so a 105 or 200 on 6x7 can cover a lot of real estate.

 

Yellowstone, however, has about 4 trillion separate ecosystems with unique aspects, and if

your with a tour, it's going to be hard to find the best spots. The geyser trails along Lake

Yellowstone are wonderful, with "paint pots" and wildflowers, as well as otters in the lake if

you're lucky. The north end of the park, anchored by Mammoth Springs, is a must see, as

are the swans on Madison river?? i think it's the Madison:) White swans, black water, green

waterplants, and sunset - amazing depth of color. And, since you've seen one you need to

check out the Grand Canyon of the Yellowstone and the falls.

 

And about 3000000000 other things:)

 

If you're in yellowstone for a bit, try to get to the Lake Hotel for dinner - they have a string

quartet playing in the evenings, and a good dinner, followed by music and conversation in

the lobby, make a wonderful end to the day - or, a breather before touring the park by

moonlight:)

Forget the outlook points, they've all been overdone. Put on your hiking boots, pick one camera and lens, and get down into the canyon for a day. Bright Angel trail, Kaibab trail, interface with Tonto trail. An unforgettable experience.

Unfortunately we're with a tour bus for this trip. So I'm kind of at the mercy of where we stop. Of course I could always come back a second time by car and go more in depth. I bought a linear polarizer which I know doesn't work with autofocus, but I tried it on my 350D and focus still works. Not sure about the metering however. It will be used on a Elan 7 regardless.

While many folks might look down on a tour, one thing they do usually do pretty well is hit the classic/high points of an area. what you have less of is flexible time. If your late efternoons/evenings (or early mornings) aren't planned out, you may well have some time to wander about, even if it's only around lodging areas. And depending on locale, that isn't necessarily bad.

I've read why, and of course can't recall to tell you, but get a circular polarizer for your autofocus cameras

 

and use it, haze is a problem at GC, as you're taking shots that encompass miles of real estate (and air)

 

I like your film choices (take plenty), and lens choices

 

Yellowstone didn't look that spectacular at first glance, compared to GC, Glacier, Tetons, e.g., but there is a wealth of photo opps: geysers, hot pools, wildlife, the GC of the Yellowstone. You could spend years there

 

Might try some Velvia in Vegas, make it even more garish, get a roll of Agfa 25 even, if you can (THE film for aspiring cartoonists)

I'm planning on 5 to 10 rolls of 120 Velvia 50, 6 rolls in 35mm of Reala, 1 to 2 rolls of 35mm Pan X, 1 to 2 rolls of 120 B&W (haven't decided yet on either Pan X or Agfa 25). And if I need more rolls of 35mm color neg- I will bring some spare Gold 100. That's a lot of film. Its no wonder I'm not bringing my Rebel XT as the cards I'd have to buy would kill my budget further. I may take back that polarizer I bought and get the proper one. They are expensive for sure. And I have 1/2 roll used already- but I will bring that plus an extra roll of Kodachrome Super 8mm. I can't wait to see movie film of these grand vistas on a large screen. I hope if need be I can find good photo stores in case I need more supplies. I'm sure Vegas should have some good ones. Hopefully not too expensive. We have a full day in Vegas to walk around free.

There's a delicious irony afoot here. Did everybody notice? Scott is shooting film this trip

because he can't afford to shoot digital! Wasn't "free shooting with no consumables" part

of the digital's appeal? Yes, but he's not equipped to shoot hundreds of photos over

several days, because he'd need a dozen gigs of storage media. None of us would be

equipped for that unless we'd done that kind of extended photo safari before. The moral

here is it may be "free" to shoot a small volume of digital photos, and it may cost little

more to shoot a large volume (once you own the cards). But it costs a lot to make that

jump from occasional shooter to roving imaging machine! Film, on the other hand, is very

accomodating of a varying workflow. You only pay for what you shoot, and you can boost

your output by 10x or 100x without making a big committment. It shows me again how

digital is great for professionals, but an expensive & elusive siren for amateurs and

vacation photojournalists.

 

If Scott were happy with his results from digital, it might make sense to buy those memory

cards. There will be other expeditions, and if not, he could resell those he didn't need. But

if he's shooting 6x7, he's seeking results that no mainstream digital can provide. How

many gigs of memory would he need to store 500+ images from an MF digital back? And

how many batteries?

 

Anyway, about the topic at hand-- Yellowstone and the Canyon are very different places.

The Grand Canyon tends to be one big scene. You can chop and crop these vistas into

innumerable compositions, but most will be composed of the same elements you see

when you first step to the rim: Rock, stubby trees, space and sky. You can find a much

wider variety of subject matter in Yellowstone: animals (nothing but birds and lizards at

the Canyon), hot and cold water in every known form, and more. It's as inconsistent and

varied as the Canyon is consistent. At any time of the day, there's some subject getting

"good" light. You just have to find it hidden within a dense, somewhat monotonous

lodgepole forest. Oh, I forgot, about 1/3 of that forest burned years ago, and is

regenerating in huge patches of head-high pines, as uniform as a Chirstmas Tree farm.

Fascinating.

 

Conversely, time is the engine that drives the Canyon's diversity, not your location (with

one exception-- the North Rim is a backward universe, a very different & remote place

that I bet isn't on your tour schedule). The light changes from season to season, hour to

hour, minute to minute. Even concentrating on one composition, you feel like you're never

done. At its best, on a partly cloudy day or in changing weather, it's more like shooting

live theater than a typical static landscape. Timing is everything. Traveling here by

organized tour can be a big mistake. I've watched riders on the Grand Canyon RR arrive at

the South Rim at High Noon and gaze with confusion and disappointment at a "spectacle"

that literally pales before their expectations. The lush landscape paintings shown at the

galleries there weren't painted on sunny days at noon. Then, with the light blazing from

over your shoulder, the Canyon looks about 1/4 as big and grand as it will four hours

later, and when sunset comes, you'll probably wish you hadn't used so much film earlier.

 

I second the remark about taking a trail below the rim. Even an hour's hike provides a

much more complex range of perspectives. After making the rim-to-river-to-rim hike

several times in my youth, and recently reading the gripping history "Death in the Grand

Canyon," I should mention that it's a lot harder getting back up than going down, and a lot

hotter in the summer than you'd expect, even at night. That's why the visitor death rate at

the Canyon is about four times that at Yellowstone. It seems that wolves, bears and boiling

water are less often lethal than silent killers like heat, dryness and gravity's stubborn pull.

Now that I've said that, aren't you glad the bus driver is calling you back? But what, it's still

an hour till sunset, you say?

Thanks for the thoughtful post. We are taking a 16 day bus tour that makes a round trip from the border and back up again. These are the stops on the way. If I see something interesting, I can always come back in a car at my own leasure to get more photos.

 

I've read Velvia 50 may be too contrasty for the Canyon. Someone suggested E100G which I have some of. I was trying to really boost color saturation- hence my choice of films- to compensate for the color loss you see in the Canyon on film. My boss has been there and she's said the reds especially don't look nearly as strong on film as they do in real life. So I'll have to make a choice. I have months to think about this, so that is good. I'd still like to use Velvia if possible, but need to see some results from others to be sure. I'm using Reala for saturation as well, but its contrast is lower (hence taming extreme light variations), plus I have the latitude of a neg for exposure variations. I'm wanting to do a series of pan shots to make a stitch as well. I will probably use my best lens- the 50mm for that. Thats one reason I considered the digital initially was to do the pan stitch. I figure it will work on film as well.

 

Yes I only have 1 CF card at this time. I'd need at least 2 to 3 more for this trip. I just can't afford that. My Visa needs to be brought down to be used for this trip, so time is limited on funds. If I had time- I'd buy that used 55mm for the P6x7 I've been looking at. I wish I could get it for this trip. I would have also bought the 17-40L instead of the 18-55 EFS lens I got before I decided to not bring my D Rebel XT. If I wasn't bringing the medium format, the digital would have also come.

 

I'm concerned about the heat in September. I don't want my films to cook too much. I may have to leave some films in my clothes suitcase instead of the camera bag- since space in bag is very limited with all I'm bringing. I don't think the underside luggage area is air conditioned. I just barely squeezed my Super 8mm camera in the front pocket of my bag. I must look like some retro dude still using Super 8 on vacations. :P Now all I have to do is build up my shoulder muscles to take all the weight that bag is gonna have. If we were going by car, equipment would be less an issue as I'd bring everything. :)

Be prepared for frustration at the Grand Canyon. It's very difficult to photograph. Actually, it's very easy to photograph-- you'll probably bring back several hundred nicely composed and nicely exposed slides, none of which will have any real impact or excitement that captures the majesty of the place. That was my experience, at least with doing the typical rim excursion. At the time I winnowed the hundreds of slides down to around 30. When I went through those a decade later to prepare my Web site, I found only two that were worth scanning and putting up. I would be willing to believe that much better images are to be found from hiking down into the canyon, but I wasn't able to do that. You may have better luck, for any of a number of reasons. I used (obsolete) Fujichrome RD100 and a polarizer to cut through the haze of imported pollution (which is probably worse now than it was in 1988).

 

You'll probably have better photo opportunities in Yellowstone. It's not just a single canyon, but a very diverse set of geological and natural photo sites. I shot color (Fujichrome RD100) and black and white (XP1). I went there in May, and the problem was the weather. Geysers don't look very good against the gray or white sky that I had much of the time (that's why I put black and white film in my backup camera). You could well have better weather in September, and perhaps (pray to the deity of your choice) some fall color.

 

These days I would probably use my favorite "everything" film, Kodak 400UC. It has fine grain, vibrant color, and a very convenient speed for travel. It makes great slides if you send it to Dale Labs.

 

Like John McMillin, I'm a bit puzzled that you're reverting to film for your trip. I just got a 350D last weekend, and I'm just beginning the process of ascending what right now looks like the Himalayan foothills of the learning curve. I took the plunge after months of research; you're quite right that the cost of CF cards is prohibitive for any kind of travel. I got a 1G card with the camera, and found that it accommodates about 70 RAW+JPEG images (consistent with what the reviews led me to believe). I thus plan to get another 2G card and a portable stand-alone hard disk device for mass storage of each day's shooting (probably the Vosonic VP6210, since it's supposed to be able to display CR2 raw files and thereby confirm they were transferred successfully). The cost of that is relatively reasonable and seems the best available (though imperfect) solution. But it's still a good bit of money, and I can well understand your reluctance to spend it. However, you might add up the cost of the film and processing for your trip. Having done that, the portable hard disk (or a standalone DVD burner, another good option that costs about about the same but is much bulkier) might become a cost-effective option.

I understand processing film will be an expense. I worked out that using film with all that goes with it will still be cheaper then buying more 1 gig cards. I still want prints and in that case film is cheaper. I only have to pay $2 more a roll for a CD. So lets say I can get away with only 3 more cards. The cheapest one I can get with my store discount is $114 minus discount of 10%. Factor in taxes and that would bring 3 cards to $351 Canadian. Add prints on top of that which would be 25 cents each. 4 1 gig cards at Raw only would give 460 prints. 460 times 25 cents is $131 Canadian including taxes. So to shoot digital is about $500. To equal 460 prints would be 19 rolls of film in 35mm on 24s. Cost of processing 120 E-6 is $5 each. Say I shoot 10 120 rolls- $50 bucks. I plan on 10 rolls of 35mm as a starting point. Cost- $5 a roll plus $5 dev and prints, plus $2 for CD. 10 rolls of all that is about $70. So now we're at $120 for 35mm. Total would be close to $200 for all film expenses. Keep in mind the sharpness of the 18-55 EF-S kit lens is no where near as good as the better 28-105 USM lens I have. I get the same wide angle view depending on which body I'm using. Now if I were to get a hard drive portable device- they start at $500 here. Not cheap. I could buy 4 to 5 cards for that price. Now there is one thing film still does better- dynamic range. Since the Grand Canyon has such light extremes, film would be a better choice. Also scanning film is easier then doing Raw conversions and manipulations. Its still unsure whether my Rebel XT has more "information" or resolution then 35mm with a film like Reala. If I'm lucky I may score some Royal Gold 25. I have several rolls of that in 120 in my freezer, but elected to use slides for my 120 instead.

Oh- since I work in a lab with digital- I can scan my negs at 2000x3000 tiff with no extra expense. Staff perk. Also I didn't factor in my discount on developing costs. But I think my point was made. In the long run digital is cheaper as long as you don't make prints. At our lab- film is still cheaper to do prints from then digital. I print my own work as well. 120 films I send to another lab for work.

I'm going to jump into the "which is cheaper in the long run" just to give my own experience

 

Mail ordering Velvia or Provia is $6US a roll of 36, mailer processing $5 /roll, intown processing $10/roll, let's call it an average of $13/roll. On a two week vacation, I can shoot 50 rolls easily. Bracketing and antishake "insurance" shots, even with my IS, eat up a lot, because I'm usually in a place I can't afford to go back to next week, and I want to make sure

 

3-4 weeks worth of trips a year equals about 100 rolls, which = $1300

This of course doesn't include what I shoot on weekends just around town, or on day trips, call it another 50 rolls, which=$650. This now comes to almost $2000, and I don't have any prints made yet, with the back and forth to the lab, "no, THAT needs to be a little darker, and THIS needs to be lighter", etc.

 

In the two years I've been shooting digital, I know I've increased the number of shots taken, as I've experimented more, and think I'm probably a better photog for it. So the equivalent film costs would have come to maybe $4500 for the period, versus $1500 for the 10D, an additional $400 for more computer than I would have gotten, about $250 for the CF cards which drop in price each week, (or at least go on sale at BestBuy), and $195 for a Jobo image tank, and just got an Epson 1280 to print 13x19, $300. I print 8x11s for about $2 apiece, 13x19s for about $6 apiece

 

For what I do, digital wins hands down. This doesn't include being able to burn CDs of shots for friends and relatives on the spot (did this at my Aunt's 90th B-day party, and was THE hero) and test lenses by way of actual large prints in the same day

"I bought a linear polarizer which I know doesn't work with autofocus, but I tried it on my 350D and focus still works. Not sure about the metering however. It will be used on a Elan 7 regardless."

 

"Oh- since I work in a lab with digital--"

 

Oh, Scott, Scott, Scott....PLEASE buy the cheapest roll of film you can get your hands on, and find out for sure what kind of results you'll get with your camera and that polarizer BEFORE you leave for the trip. There's no worse feeling than getting home, eagerly waiting for your photos to get developed because you're sure you have 1 or 2 awesome photos you're going to get enlarged and hung, and then finding out that they didn't turn out.

 

Somewhere else you mentioned trying to find some Kodak 25. Is that the RZ you're referring to? That's all I shot when I was starting out. I switched to Reala once the RZ was discontinued. Man, I look back now at those old RZ pictures, and just shudder at the ugly colour palette. Granted it had super ultra-fine grain, but I'd stick with the Reala. The only caveat to that advice being that as I mentioned I was totally new to photography when I was using the RZ-25, and usually shot in a green Auto mode at high noon so I can't blame everything on the film. But still....that palette.....ugh.

 

Oh yes, and the preference tips even more to Reala's favour if you're bringing an undersized tripod. Those 2 stops of speed could make a big difference.

 

I'd bring a noseplug for Yellowstone as well. I know I have a paricularly sensitive nose, but that park stinks! Reminds me of one of the iron foundries we have around here that's almost 100 years old.

Ok. Let say I had all the cards I needed. My only expense would be making prints. When developing a roll of film of 24- it costs 4.97 which is including developing the film and prints. To do the same from digital it costs $6. The only expense then would be buying the rolls of film. But since I don't have more then one card, I'd have to put up the expense of getting more. Problem is I've got 5 months to save up for the trip with very limited funds. I've already got some of the film. If my digital was a EOS 1Ds II, I'd leave all cameras at home and just bring it. I don't mind packing 3 cameras, it just the bulk and weight I'm concerned with. I can't say for sure I'll ever be in the area again, so I'm bringing all that I can. Digital is cheaper if you shoot A LOT of photos, but being we'll be trapped on the bus for a good portion of the whole trip, I won't be taking as many as I normally would. So that leaves less time at each stop. I'm guessing 10 rolls for this trip. It may be more. If it were 19 like the original memory card estimate would have been, the film costs would be closer to digital. With digital you naturally take more then normal. Film I conserve a little by just getting the right shot a few times instead of 10. My plan is to take some of GC both with and without a polarizer. If I do use Velvia 50, I hope the contrast build up won't be too extreme especially when a pol. is used. If anyone has any Grand Canyon pics with RVP50 please post examples.

I may not get the RZ as mentioned. We'll have to see. I've decided to return the polarizer. It does seem to work, but I'm not going to risk it. I'll have to pony up for the real deal I guess.

My 2 cents - A local chain of photo stores here in Tucson will do 4x6 digital proofs from your CD for 26 cents each, back in one or two days, and you can cull them out beforehand. I print at home for less. Image tank type of portable hard drive about $300 or less and use it for years - mine is a FlashTrax. Toss in a few bucks for a CD burner. For reasonably substantial volume, I've not been able to beat it with film costs. YMMV. But if you're new to digital, perhaps the confidence factor in film justly wins out. And, obviously, if you need MF, then you need MF. Which job are you gearing up to do - tourist mementos of the trip or serious photography with resultant huge prints, or something between.....

 

Yellowstone is beautiful, geologically intriguing. Only bits have the sulfur smell of geysers. The Grand Canyon is, well, a huge experience. For samples, there are vast numbers of photos online of each park, and the parks are online with maps, etc. Plus for bus: no fighting traffic - it can be thick in the summer.

 

Personally, on tourist trips I often just take the best tourist snaps that I can manage, with an easily portable digicam or 10D and one lens, and spend my time enjoying my companion(s). There usually isn't time to plan and make images carefully. Good touring and welcome to beautiful Arizona!

Prints are prints, with digital you don't have to make any except the ones you'd really want. You'll scan all of the negatives just trying to find the ones you may be interested in before you can save $.12 or so a print. For you, maybe time isn't money. Besides, you'll be able to watch all those blue haired old ladies chimping and sharing and e-mailing and know that weeks after you get home, you'll have a couple of really nice prints. (And they'll have a lot of really nice files to go with the prints they may have chosen to make.)

Since I print my own work, I usually can pass ones I don't want. But in most cases I like a copy of each vacation pic, so it doesn't really make any difference there.

I'd guess that on a coach tour the biggest problem you'll have is that you won't be there at dawn or dusk, and that's when the vast majority of good photography at the Grand Canyon is done. If I were you I'd be hoping for a storm and otherwise expect a lot of haze and weak colour. Use a UV filter or a polariser if it does anything and stick to well saturated films. Above all, get the expectations right - GC is great to look at and hard to photograph well at the best of times; the chances of you producing a masterpiece given the constraints of a coach tour are not high, so don't be afraid to do plenty of looking with less photography. Don't worry if you don't have time to get below the rim- the best photographs I've seen there are all from or near the rim and indeed they've been as much about sky as anything. Time of day and haze are much bigger issues.

I thought to be detailed, I'd write out the itinerary for the whole trip. Grand Canyon is day 9. Day 1 starts from BC and goes to Wenatchee Washington. They stop in the afternoon in Leavenworth. Day 2 goes from Wenatchee to Missoula Montana. Day 3 is from Missoula to Yellowstone. Day 4 spends part of the day in the park seeing the geysers and scenery. Then they head south through the Grand Tetons and Jackson Hole which takes us to Jackson Wyoming. Day 5 is from Jackson to Salt Lake City. Day 6 is a free day to spend in Salt Lake City. No idea what we're gonna do there just yet. They suggest the research library or temple square. Day 7 takes us from Salt Lake to Moab Utah. During the day we drive though Spring Canyon and we'll see Arches National Park. Day 8 is to Page Arizona. We stop at Glen Canyon Dam during the day. Day 9 is from Page to Grand Canyon. We travel through the Navajo Indian Reserve. It says for the Grand Canyon we'll stop at several points. To me it sound like the Grand Canyon will be in the afternoon and evening portions of the day. Day 10 is from Grand Canyon to Las Vegas Nevada. Day 11 is day off in Vegas. Day 12 takes us to Fresno California. Day 13 is from there to Napa Valley California. Overnight stop is in Ukiah. Day 14- From Ukiah we go to Grants Pass Oregon. We'll drive through the Redwood Empire. Day 15- Grants Pass to Salem Oregon. We'll cruise along the Rogue River. Day 16 is from Salem back to BC Canada.

 

So thats the trip. So far I have 6 rolls of Reala, 6 rolls of Gold 100, Panatomic X 35mm and 120, 1 roll so far of Velvia 50 120 (I need to get more), and if need be 4 to 5 rolls of 120 E100G. I'm debating to get a Zenitar 16mm fish eye for fun, but we'll see if I can squeeze that in the budget.

 

How hot does it get down south in September? Does it cool down at all? Its right after schools back in.

If you leave your XT behind, when you suddenly see a moose at dusk you will really miss being able to instantly shoot at ISO 1600 (with a 1.6x crop) and get decent results . For $5-10, most photo stores (there are at least 3 in Jackson Hole) will burn CD's from your flash cards. If you pick-up just 1 more 1GB flash card (like for $70 these days), and burn CDs every few days, then 2 CF cards, plus film, could get you through the whole trip.

If you can find just that little bit of extra space for the DRebel, try to do so just for the reason Kenneth cited: low light shots that appear suddenly. I lost a beautiful Bighoren Sheep in Glacier, standing right in a parking area licking some old bubble gum,, not twenty yards away, I think, because I only had Velvia in my 1N