need some info. on what to charge for photographing for an ad

I have been asked to photograph some product for an advertisement a smaller

company is placing in some well known magazines. They said they want to

do a work for hire so they don't have to pay me everytime they use my images. This

would be my first time dealing with this type of request and I would like to get some

idea what the going rate is. Thanks for any input.

 

Andrea Kelly

Andrea-- Around here, "Work For Hire" is considered a very dirty phrase. It's a way to take away major portions of a photographer's income for no good reason. However, there are circumstances under which some people (myself included) will consider it. That condition is if the client pays me four times the proper commercial day rate.

 

If the client is going to be putting the ad in several well-known magazines, then the cost of the photograph in comparison to the overall cost of the ad campaign is miniscule. Right about now, your BS filter should be sending you messages.

 

First of all, check out a good pay rate calculator. Get ahold of the book, "Pricing Photography" (look it up on Amazon.com). Figure out what they should be paying for use of the images, then multiply it by four.

 

Next, take the attitude that the pricing is out of your hands. You'll know it's not true, they'll know it's not true, but if you keep pounding it into their heads that way, they might just come around. You can be like, "Well, let me check my rate calculations. Let's see, under ASMP guidelines, for uses in magazines with a total of that much curculation, use fees generally run in the neighborhood of $1980.00. For "Work for hire," the multiplier is 4x, so that comes to...$7920.00." They're going to go apopolectic. That's OK. You want them to. That's why a good salesperson starts showing the more expensive models first, because you want the customer to get the sticker shock on those models. When you get to the car you actually want the customer to buy, the mid-range model price starts looking good.

 

So, the customer has seen the $8,000 price tag on the shot, and says it's ridiculous. But you've already established that price as what is right. THEY were probably thinking something more along the lines of $1000.

 

For the next part, memorize this phrase. "Well, work-for-hire is for use when people are full-time employees and things like that. Technically it would be illegal for me to sign such a contract unless you people are taking me on as an employee and paying half my social secutiry tax and my medical insurance and etcetera. Courts have been knocking those things down left and right, so I'm sure you certainly don't want to take a chance on something like that!"

So, now you want to continue helpful and not someone who's confrontational. You say, "That might not be what you want. Here's what I can do..."

 

Offer them something called "Unlimited Use Rights," at 3x single use rates. You still retain copyright of the images, and in your contract you state that you can sell the images to other parties after some number of years, perhaps five. You also retain the rights to be the one to collect any monies due from copyright infringement, and that they do not own any rights to the images unless the images are fully paid for. Don't sign their contracts, they sign yours.

 

At this point, they're still going to balk on the price. Ask them to tell you what their budget is. If it's ridiculous, tell them that there is no way you can work within that price. Then you say, "But here's what I can do. If you pay 50% up front on the day the contract is signed, and the other 50% the day of the shoot, I can give you a prepay discount of ..." And then work your deal from there.

 

Just remember, if they want to take something from you, you get something from them. And if they seem shady at all, get your money up front, and in YOUR contract, you stipulate that if they don't pay for the use of the images, it's copyright infringement.

 

Then--and this is extremely important--BEFORE THE IMAGES ARE PUBLISHED OR EVEN TURNED OVER TO THE CLIENT-- you make copies of them and register them with the copyright office. If you wait until after the images are published, it's a real pain in the ass, trust me on this.

 

To sum up, start with YOUR number, and it should be a number from a legitimage outside resource, and it should be high enough to shock them. If they want to pay less, they give you something, as anything below that number you will be doing them a favor. Two of the most important things they can give you are your rights and your money up front.

 

Go get 'em, and good luck. -Bill Cornett

Andrea-- Around here, "Work For Hire" is considered a very dirty phrase. It's a way to take away major portions of a photographer's income for no good reason. However, there are circumstances under which some people (myself included) will consider it. That condition is if the client pays me four times the proper commercial day rate.

 

If the client is going to be putting the ad in several well-known magazines, then the cost of the photograph in comparison to the overall cost of the ad campaign is miniscule. Right about now, your BS filter should be sending you messages.

 

First of all, check out a good pay rate calculator. Get ahold of the book, "Pricing Photography" (look it up on Amazon.com). Figure out what they should be paying for use of the images, then multiply it by four.

 

Next, take the attitude that the pricing is out of your hands. You'll know it's not true, they'll know it's not true, but if you keep pounding it into their heads that way, they might just come around. You can be like, "Well, let me check my rate calculations. Let's see, under ASMP guidelines, for uses in magazines with a total of that much curculation, use fees generally run in the neighborhood of $1980.00. For "Work for hire," the multiplier is 4x, so that comes to...$7920.00." They're going to go apopolectic. That's OK. You want them to. That's why a good salesperson starts showing the more expensive models first, because you want the customer to get the sticker shock on those models. When you get to the car you actually want the customer to buy, the mid-range model price starts looking good.

 

So, the customer has seen the $8,000 price tag on the shot, and says it's ridiculous. But you've already established that price as what is right. THEY were probably thinking something more along the lines of $1000.

 

For the next part, memorize this phrase. "Well, work-for-hire is for use when people are full-time employees and things like that. Technically it would be illegal for me to sign such a contract unless you people are taking me on as an employee and paying half my social secutiry tax and my medical insurance and etcetera. Courts have been knocking those things down left and right, so I'm sure you certainly don't want to take a chance on something like that!"

So, now you want to continue helpful and not someone who's confrontational. You say, "That might not be what you want. Here's what I can do..."

 

Offer them something called "Unlimited Use Rights," at 3x single use rates. You still retain copyright of the images, and in your contract you state that you can sell the images to other parties after some number of years, perhaps five. You also retain the rights to be the one to collect any monies due from copyright infringement, and that they do not own any rights to the images unless the images are fully paid for. Don't sign their contracts, they sign yours.

 

At this point, they're still going to balk on the price. Ask them to tell you what their budget is. If it's ridiculous, tell them that there is no way you can work within that price. Then you say, "But here's what I can do. If you pay 50% up front on the day the contract is signed, and the other 50% the day of the shoot, I can give you a prepay discount of ..." And then work your deal from there.

 

Just remember, if they want to take something from you, you get something from them. And if they seem shady at all, get your money up front, and in YOUR contract, you stipulate that if they don't pay for the use of the images, it's copyright infringement.

 

Then--and this is extremely important--BEFORE THE IMAGES ARE PUBLISHED OR EVEN TURNED OVER TO THE CLIENT-- you make copies of them and register them with the copyright office. If you wait until after the images are published, it's a real pain in the ass, trust me on this.

 

To sum up, start with YOUR number, and it should be a number from a legitimage outside resource, and it should be high enough to shock them. If they want to pay less, they give you something, as anything below that number you will be doing them a favor. Two of the most important things they can give you are your rights and your money up front.

 

Go get 'em, and good luck. -Bill Cornett

Also, NEVER sign any kind of delivery memo. Often they have weasle clauses that will override your contract. -BC-

Andrea, Bill is entirely correct (almost). The only point I differ on is the payment (i.e., pay 50% now, save X). You should always get 50% down. I don't even take a prospect seriously if they won't put 50% down. In fact, I always ask for 100% up front and let them negotiate down to 50% deposit plus expenses & 50% in 30 days. If their ad budget is large (as you indicated), then press for the full amount and don't hand over rights unless your compensated for it.