Models from the agency. Do you give pictures if you paid and other things in contract.

<p>Hi,<br>

I used some models from modelling agency for my final university project and looks that I will have some problems with it, so i want to be prepared.<br>

It was the first time that I use models from the agency, there fore was a bit silly and probably naive. <br>

I had 12 girls from the same agency and only few of them did know how to pose and had experience! I was working under very tight schedule and couldn't afford to waist time teaching models how to pose. When I said that to the agency they said sorry, we can't give you money back because all the girls been tested etc. One of the models said to me that it is her second photo shoot ever. first one was in the studio of the agent... <br>

Anyway, that is gone and I am worried about more serious stuff.. they sent me a contract via email, and i returned it (via email) with my name and address. In the contract it says DESCRIPTION OF SERVICES TO BE SUPPLIED: Photo shoot for college project and The Client shall have rights to use the Model’s Image for 1year from the date of commencement as defined in the Booking Form, in the territory of London and for the purpose of the Agreed Use only . After reading it I phoned the to discus it and then I was told that I can use it not only in London, and I can use for more than a year. After a long discussion they said they will get back to me. but the y haven't yet (been 3 days) and I don't want to ring myself till I will be 100% sure of my rights. I spoke about using images for portfolio etc and I was told that this is fine, as well for portfolios of people that were involved in the shoot. The other thing, my work will be exhibited and prints will be on sale. There is not much chance for anyone to buy it, but.. as well, I will try yo get it published... So will all that still be as 'photo shoot for college project'?<br>

And the last thing.. After the shoot all models asked when they will get pictures!! and how many!! I was a bit shocked as I though that I don't have to give pictures to the agency if I paid for the models. (I asked them if they have any models that would like to update/build their portfolios and do it for prints, but they said that all of them has great portfolios already... )<br>

Sorry for a long question, but I really hope that someone can help with some info.<br>

Thank you very much<br>

Kristina</p>

<p>First, generally the use for models is specific and has a time limit. The regional thing is not that far out there either and is based on what you told them and paid. Yes, you generally also have on-going rights to use the image for your portfolio and this is not generally restricted. It is also common that the models can use the ad/work for their portfolio as well. Selling the images is a totally different thing and generally, unless it is part of the upfront deal, is not included. Most commercial work isn't such that an image could be resold as a print, only as stock, so it is an odd one.</p>

<p>As to the models getting prints, sure, but they must pay for them. In fact, when I test, I always make the model pay for the images. (I know there is this print/file for time, but what about your time and use of equipment--don't get me started on photographer stupidity!)</p>

<p>Anyway, to your situation, I would only sell the prints or trade for more rights, you don't owe a paid model anything after the shoot.</p>

<p>As to your model experience, it is not all that uncommon. I have had awful models show up and except for the truly top agencies in top markets, that is why I do a casting ahead of time--even when I test with a model-and then it doesn't always pan out either! Being a model is sort of a joke, it is just a body to most agencies and they rarely refund. I have sent models home, from the get go and called the agency for improper casting and to get a suitable model over ASAP(never didn't precast after that one!) I have also had models work great for an hour or so and then be useless. What you gonna do?</p>

<p>It is a little hard to understand what you are saying-you ramble a little.</p>

<p>First, you always need to get legal help for legal problems. Many of us have had experience with contracts and usage, but the law is specific and interpretive according to the jurisdiction and what may apply in one location may not in another. Also, we are basically photographers, that is what we know and do well. If you trust us and get in more legal trouble, you can't blame us. See if your school has some legal resources you can use.</p>

<p>That said, since you seem to be in London, the following may not apply to you since I am in the U.S.:</p>

<p>There are several issues here. First, did the agency guarantee that the models were experienced? Tested just means that they have photos-it doesn't ensure that they can pose or are experienced.</p>

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<p>(I asked them if they have any models that would like to update/build their portfolios and do it for prints, but they said that all of them has great portfolios already... )</p>

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<p>This isn't in a contract, so it can be disputed, but it does show that the agency can't be trusted to accurately represent their models.</p>

<p>Second, did you sign a contract or is the contract you talked about still unsigned by you. You mentioned returning it with your name and address-was this your signature? If so, you are bound to the contract. It is never smart to sign a contract and then read it and try to understand what is being said. Being a student is no excuse nor will it get you out of a contract.</p>

<p>If you don't have an agreement with the agency and if they supplied models without a signed contract, they are not very professional and will probably always be a problem-I'd stay away from them.</p>

<p>As for the "Client". you have none. You are doing self promotion and testing work. So any mention of a "Client" doesn't affect anything.</p>

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<p>After a long discussion they said they will get back to me. but the y haven't yet (been 3 days)</p>

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<p>If you want an answer, you need to take the initiative and call them. You aren't that important to them so they may have forgotten about you.<br>

As for the models wanting images, that should have been discussed with them before the shoot. Normally, if a model likes my work, I'm happy to help them out. But I would have had a contract with the model to limit what they can do with the images.</p>

<p>As far is publishing the images, most of the time the work will probably qualify as editorial rather than advertising/commercial. Because of this different laws apply and you need to talk to an attorney (lawyer). It is cheaper than getting sued for violating a contract you don't understand. In the U.S., ignorance of the law isn't an excuse-I would guess that it is the same where you are.</p>

 

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<p>As for the models wanting images, that should have been discussed with them before the shoot. Normally, if a model likes my work, I'm happy to help them out. But I would have had a contract with the model to limit what they can do with the images.</p>

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<p>I forgot to mention, that if the models are experienced, they normally would pay for the images. If I was hired for by the agency to test the models, they would get some images for their portfolio as part of my normal contract with the agency ("The Client"). Any other images would be discussed with the model. Also, for the future, if the model only has work from one photographer, don't pay them as a professional-they aren't. A portfolio should demonstrate the model's ability to work with a variety of photographers and styles. This is why they test-to get the experience. You should have to pay for the privilege of testing the model.</p>

<p>John, when it comes to models and their contracts, it does not matter what the use, the contract is what matters--this is not the same as shooting someone with no contract and using it editorially, the contract rules and takes precedent over common practice or what might be acceptable without a contract.</p>

<p>Actually, this is one of the reasons you will see more fine art prints done by commercial photographers of celebrities than you ever will of models(shot for commercial purposes). In the past, there were no contracts with those people(celebrities)--today there are more controls on personal image by celebrities and it is more difficult!</p>

<p>I don't think you need an attorney for this, you just need to get clarification in writing of what you can do with the images you took. One thing in the industry is that it works a certain way and part of that is it can be a bit loose at times, but that is customary. Just get it in writing what you can or cannot do with the images under your agreement with the agency. I have been shooting high end commercial work for over 20 years and have yet to feel a need to get an attorney involved--not saying someone with less experience(lots of legal experience before I went full time commercial), but most of these things are pretty straight forward.</p>

 

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<p>But John, it is unclear what, and if there is a contract here. Since she might have contracted with an agency, they can limit how the images may be used.</p>

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<p>I agree with you that most work is pretty much straight forward (if you work with a reliable, reputable firms), but this seems a little sketchy. As a commercial photographer, I too haven't had issues with contracts, but I had to use them a couple times at the beginning of my career. Once I figured out a system, it pretty much ran by itself.</p>

<p>But I've noticed that some my students have been working with what seems like incompetent or downright suspicious agencies. There aren't the established ones, but rather small agencies that seem to cater to low end and beginning photographers/models. These agencies seem to be nothing but trouble-poorly trained, mis-represented, and otherwise non-professional models, interesting (to say the least) contracts and terms, and inconsistent standards for both the photographers and models.</p>

<p>For instance, one "agency" here only lets models use "authorized" photographers for the portfolio images and those photographers are family/significant others. None of the top photographers in the area are authorized. Yet they are unfortunately one of the most used by photographers around here.</p>

<p>I don't know if it is a trend, but I don't remember so many downright bad agencies before. Maybe the their industry is going the same way of photography. They can harvest models from some online sites and call themselves an agency-without any of the professionalism. You and I can spot the scams and poor agencies/models, but many new photographers cannot.</p>

<p>Thanks for the answers.<br>

First - I didn't signed a contract. We are still 'discussing' it or should say I am waiting for their call. They didn't forget me, I think they are not sure what to say.<br>

It is a new agency run buy two ladies with not much experience. I did a test shoot a while ago with one of their models and had no problems at all. That was one of the reasons why I used them again. I was not expecting to have problems like that. And yes, I will never use them again. <br>

Being a student is not an excuse, thats why I didn't sign a contract yet and I will discus that with my attorney before signing it.<br>

Going back to the prints for models... I wouldn't mind them using my images for their portfolios, but now I know that for some of them was a portfolio building/experience gaining shoot, and I don't think I should be paying for that. I had models that needed a portfolio and payed me for my work... Now I feel that I payed for them to let me build their portfolio:) Thats why I don't feel like giving pictures. <br>

Thanks a lot again</p>

<p>Here's the thing Kristina, if they like your work enough, they will use it in their portfolio and pay you for a print--I never charged client prices, but I made money on them--otherwise, you can give them all you want, but they wont be used--and they will ask for anything they can get for free!</p>

<p>Kristina,</p>

<p>It wasn't a good start with these two women, but if you like them and think that their business is legit and will grow, you might approach them to contract with them to shoot test and portfolio images for their models. I would be careful to make sure you retain all rights.<br>

Also, how did your project turn out?</p>

<p>I just want to clarify: your photo sessions with the models have already been completed. Now the agency wants you to sign a contract limiting what you can or cannot do with the photos after the fact. Also, the models are now expecting prints from you. Were there any understandings prior to your shoot concerning any of this? Definitely some guidance from a legal expert will be useful.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I just want to clarify: your photo sessions with the models have already been completed. Now the agency wants you to sign a contract limiting what you can or cannot do with the photos after the fact. Also, the models are now expecting prints from you. Were there any understandings prior to your shoot concerning any of this? Definitely some guidance from a legal expert will be useful.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>You're getting a lot of good sound advice from professional photographers about the way things are done and what is normally to be expected; but what you seem to need is common ordinary business sense, and so do the ladies who run the model agency and the models who came and posed and apparently provided some service to you.<br>

If you're doing this for a college project, you should be able to get some input from the advisor in charge. He should have a realistic idea of what benefit you can derive from the pictures, some notion of standard practices locally, and be able to tell you what you need and should be contracting for.<br>

You didn't say whether you provided the agency with any money or whether they provided you with a schedule of fees. If they did and you did in fact use their models, an implicit contract probably exists, and in the absence of a written contract agreed upon before the transaction, most courts will arbitrate it on the basis of standard industry practice.<br>

This is not legal counsel, so you need a lawyer to advise you. An honest lawyer will usually tell you it's cheaper to get robbed blind than it is to go to court, so you need to consider that, moral indignation aside, you might do better to take your lumps and chalk this one up to experience. You did business without a written contract and an understanding of the law under which it is executed, and--oh, the horror!<br>

Established pros can do business with everyone, including the models they work with, and can charge them for pictures. You're a student, not established, and struggling rather like the inexperienced models the agency sent. If you're planning to continue in photography, you're going to want to work with them as they gain experience, and you may want their good will. I rather suspect the agency may be discouraging you from giving their models pictures in order to lock them into the agency and its preferred photographer for their portfolios. If you give them something they've been paying for, it costs you peanuts and you may have a professional relationship in the making.<br>

When you're done with the university, it's time to consider higher education. You might take classes in business school.</p>

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<p>Also, how did your project turn out?</p>

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<p>Its not finished yet, but so far so good apart from this agency thing. Thanks for asking.</p>

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<p>You're a student, not established, and struggling rather like the inexperienced models the agency sent.</p>

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<p>I am not a twenty years old student and I've been making my living from photography for ten years... so thats a bit harsh.<br>

I never used model agencies before (I should say never booked models myself and never needed them for my personal work), and had kind of a relationship with the ladies that own the one I used. I was a 'bit' naive, but you live and learn. </p>

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<p>When you're done with the university, it's time to consider higher education. You might take classes in business school.</p>

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<p>Maybe higher education would be nice, but for now master degree in psychology and photographic arts (fingers cross) will be enough.</p>

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<p><br /></p>

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<p> . . . thats a bit harsh.</p>

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<p>Harsh? You came here with a problem, you're struggling, you got effective and thoughtful advice. I suppose I could make nice and spare your feelings, but that wouldn't be helpful. If you're really into making a living, blunt and realistic is the name of your game, and that's precisely what I'm giving you.<br>

You got into trouble not because you don't understand photography or psychology, but because you don't understand contract law. That should be enough to make you think business classes are warranted right now. They may not be an option, but certainly you can scurry to your local library for a good book on the subject of contract law. It may well spare you expensive mistakes in the future.<br>

Good luck. (fingers cross)</p>

<p>Kristina, for me theres 2 type of photograper; 1 that wait for the model to move so he can take so good images saying once in a while " good, beautyfull, like that, good, yep beautifull etc "..., the other that tell the model what he wants, and help the model and him to get where he want them " chin up, down, yep beautyfull, move a bit, like that, great, look good, move the hand a bit, perfect"...and this is where you normally see the experience coming out. From what you say, you seem to be in the first batch.. the one that wait for the model to give the shot.</p>

<p>The thing is, before getting any good model that know there body and can give you what you want they need some experience, so im not really surprise if a agency send you people who just start and not there super star.. they probably dont know you, they probably never seen your image published, and they probably know that without experience it will be a win win game between you and them; you get more experience, they get images for there model.</p>

<p>When you said *final university project* they know that its not for a editorial kind of shoot, they know that it will probably appear on your web site or your portfolio only.. basically they wont make there model on the map with youre images.. so they sent you *material* for a university project. dont blame them, its normal. Again, with experience you will know that you should have receive z card, kind of a small model portfolio where YOU can choose them, and the agency decide if they can send them to you according to your budget / project etc..</p>

<p>Now, lets go with some obvious problem here;</p>

<p>1_business 101_ NEVER sign a contract before reading it 2x and before fully undertsanding it 200%. You dont sign and discuss, you discuss and signed..big big difference. So if you didtn fix anything before you sign, it is YOUR problem to follow whatever they ask you to.</p>

<p>2_business 102_A contract must be sign BEFORE doing anything, meaning before even getting the girl on site. Unfortunatly you didtn do this. So on both those point i cant say you where naive, but more inconscious.. to stay polite ; )</p>

<p>Dont go into a legal war with them, you sign it, you agreed with it obviously since you signed the contrat, your f*** and dont need a legal advisor to tell you that... live ad learn.</p>

<p>Should you give them print or sell them? Nobody give anything for free. A 9x12 print is 35$ in Montreal for model.. so this is what you should charge or similar. Again, if in your contrat it is writen that model will receive free print.. dont fight.</p>

<p>Even with 10 years + photography experience (what you said) for me you look like a junior in that contract / model department (no offence.. everybody have to start somewhere) shoothing bird, object, art doestn make you a good business man / woman, and people cant make stupid mistake at 20-30 or 40 years old... so live and learn form them (quickly if you want to stay alive) and dont make a huge problem out of what you are experiencing today.. just follow the direction and be prepare for the next one.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>All,<br>

Good advice for a budding shooting like me. I'm looking into contacting an agency as well and I'm keeping this thread for the good points made by all.<br>

Kristina,<br>

I'd love to see how your project turns out!<br>

Jesse</p>

<p>thanks for all answers. just to let everyone know, that all is solved. communication was the key in the end. <br>

Jesse, make sure not to make my mistake. <br>

Patrick, i am very much not the first type of photographers and i always direct models (did lots of test to learn and to be conformable to do that). i was talking about models that can't even copy the pose i showed, and 'move a bit' understood as 'move as much as you can', or they were feeling so uncomfortable in front of the camera that just dropped everything and said 'i don't know how to do it' and forget about expressions, what ever i asked for i got the same blank face... <br>

and i think i am a bit less than a junior in models with contracts department. but you live and learn.</p>