Mamiya C220F questions

<p>Okay, it arrived and I'm not massively impressed. It was covered in dusty and other specs of cr*p, but overall not in bad shape I guess.</p>

<p>Anyway, I looked up the manual, but the photos refer to a slightly different body, so I can't make much sense of it. The photos show a 'catch button' on the back door, which just isn't there on the C220F version. So I don't know how to get the door open! Oh simple things...</p>

<p>Also can this fire without any film in? What I assume is the shutter release 'button' (more like a switch on the side/front) doesn't move down far enough, seems very stiff.</p>

<p>Many thanks...</p>

<p>For some of these C series TLRs, you need to be an escapologist and lock picker of Houdini's skill to open the door. I spent a good hour trying to open my father's C330(S or F) last year. Unfortunately, I can't remember how I did it!</p>

<p>You can find a copy of the manual online at http://www.butkus.org/chinon/mamiya/mamiya_c220/mamiya_c220.htm</p>

<p>Agh, got it now! Beuh, that is the manual I was referring to, which is not relevent for all of the C220F. It seems one of the knobs for the spools can actually be pressed inwards as well, which releases the back door.</p>

<p>Now, just curious if this can be 'released' without any film in?</p>

<p>I'm thinking I'll likely return it in honesty, it was 'dirty', the glass has smudges all over it, and the focus is notchy around a third of the way through.. just not giving the impression that it's been that well cared for, atleast in recent years...</p>

<p>Did you notice that there are two manuals on that site (C220+C220F)?</p>

<p>Too bad for you... and unfortunately I sold my very nice C33 for €160 (though it had "sticky shutter" at the slow speeds).</p>

<p>I did not see that at all! Seems missing the obvious is the flavour of the day...</p>

<p>I recall being handed my first Mamiya 645 to load c 1970's. I had loaded Hassleblad backs for years, but was new to the M's. My boss thought it was pretty funny watching me struggle. Then he told me about the spring loaded film "box end" holder in the middle of the back, that is also the 2nd door latch!</p>

<p>Richard, Sorry to hear your new arrival wasn't up to standards, especially after the price you paid.<br>

Price of 185 euro's/$255US is really towards the high end for a C220, even for C220F.</p>

<p>The shutter will fire without film in the camera, just put the camera into multi exposure mode. The Butkus Manual site doesn't show a C220f. The C220f is listed, but he has a standard C220 non-f, posted in the place of the f-model. On the 330's, the multi switch is on the photographers right side. It may be around the film advance knob, but I don't know for sure.</p>

<p>Easier way to test the lens is, by removing the lens from the body. Set the aperture to it's widest setting, (lowest f:stop number), set a shutter speed, cock the shutter, (left side of lens, with lens facing subject), then fire/trip the lens, (right side of lens, facing the subject). Run through each shutter speed a couple of times. </p>

<p>When setting shutter speeds, it is good to learn early on, the correct way to operate a lens shutter. Get in the habit of setting the shutter speed first, cock the shutter second, then fire the shutter third. This is not of primary importance with shutters on Mamiya TLR's, but it can become an issue with other makes of shutters that you may encounter later in life. <br>

Also, most shutter speeds have to be placed/centered on the click stop speed, not half way between speeds. Most apertures can be set at half stop intervals, but not the shutter speed..<br>

Now, repeat after me: Set speed, then cock, then trip! (grin)</p>

<p>You may be better off sending the camera back. Stiffness in focusing may be signs of bent rack/rails, and/or focusing gears that have seen better days. For the amount of money you paid, your copy should be in better/cleaner condition then what you have described here, and if the stiffness in focusing was not described in the narrative, pre-sale, then you should return the camera.</p>

<p>I didn't want to rain on your parade earlier, but C220f's are the least robust of all the latter day Mamiya TLR's. In my opinion, they were a last gasp by Mamiya, to hobble together body parts from their last run of bodies. I can find no other reason why Mamiya would abandon the normal C220 film advance on the take-up spool, (a very simple, tried and true design), and then to put the advance knob in place where C330's have their crank. Lame, very lame.</p>

<p>Which ever route you choose from here, I do wish you better luck in the future. <br>

Mamiya TLR's are nice cameras, a fact I'm sure you'll agree with, once you get an acceptable working model.</p>

 

<p>Oh, I forgot, the light baffle control on the photographers left side needs to be in the up/open position.<br>

Easy to see with the lens off, exactly where the light baffle is, and how that switch/knob operates the baffle.</p>

<p>The baffle is there so you won't fog the film when changing lenses, mid roll. Always close the baffle before you change a lens. There are no interlocks to prevent you from doing this, so another good habit to learn early on.<br>

However, there is a shutter release inter lock, preventing you from firing the shutter with the baffle closed though.</p>

<p><em>" The Butkus Manual site doesn't show a C220f. The C220f is listed, but he has a standard C220 non-f, posted in the place of the f-model."</em><br /><em></em><br /><em>- </em>from what I see, the link shows both C220 and C220F manuals. There are 2 sets of 2 PDF files. The "F" model links to PDF are listed at the bottom of the web page, so you will need to scroll down the page to see the C220F camera manual links. You will need to open those links.</p>

<p>Openning the film compartment on C220F requires simultaneous "push" and "slide" operation, using at least 2 fingers... but I do not want to re-write what is already explained there.</p>

<p>Frank, the C220 list at the bottom of the page is for an older repair manual, maybe an early C2.<br>

There is a C220 listing, and a C220f listing, but both will lead you to earlier C220 manuals.<br>

The C220f has the film advance knob centered on the photographers right side of the camera, not up at the take-up spool as on earlier C220's.<br>

If you actually find a C220f manual, then please paste/post the URL to this thread.</p>

<p>Frank, now I found it. Mike has two different manuals (four options, instead of the usual one or two options), piggy-backed on one listing.<br /> http://www.cameramanuals.org/mamiya_pdf/mamiya_c220f-1.pdf</p>

<p>@Marc, thanks for your help & advise. I did get it firing in the end, without film. The focusing is stiff around a third of the way through... or rather not stiff, but just a little 'rough', not smooth anyway. This and a few other things just make me feel the camera hasn't been well looked after at all, which I don't think is a great sign (atleast I've found inthe past it isnt). I appreciate your honesty too.. is the C330f the 'real deal' in terms of build quality then? I may be inclined to go for one of those, as after handling the C220f, I found the weight a pleasant surprise. The automatic parallax correction is something that i think I'd like to, as I do like to get things 'right' in camera, straight away.<br>

<br />I paid 185 GBP, that's 218 EUROs, 296 USD. Worth noting, however, that the market in the UK is going to vary greatly from that in the US, so you can't simply do a straight conversion to compare. Looking at ebay completed listings, they do seem to go for much less in the US - often below 100 GBP. In the UK, I see a couple sold for around 200 GBP, and then one that was described as being out of use for years at 166 GBP. But anyway, I'm just not sure it's worth the money, whatever I pay, because I'm not entirely happy with it. For what it's worth, the seller has offered me a partial refund of 35 GBP (so 150 total), but still... I'm not sure I'd want the camera at that price. I think I'd rather wait and get one that's "nice".<br /><br />What do you think?</p>

<p>Richard,</p>

<p>Sorry to hear about the overall condition of the 220. I realize now that you are not stateside. England I guess?<br>

Which shop did you buy it from? Or was it a private dealer?<br>

Did you try this link: http://www.ukcamera.com/<br>

This link should give you a broader picture of the Second Hand Shops on the UK.</p>

<p>When I was a Graphic Arts student, one of my Professor sold me my first TLR system. I had my eyes on a Rolleiflex TLR that my uncle introduced me to when I was young. Couldn't afford it then so I did jump on a great deal that my Professor offered me. I received a Mamiyaflex, Mamiya 220 Professional, and the 330F along with the 55mm, 80mm, 135mm, & 180mm. With this "KIT" I received hoods, eye level prism, WLF, filters, etc.<br>

Each of these bodies offered something differ then the other. The 220F was light and more modern then the Mamiyaflex. The 330F was the King of the TLR with removable lenses. However whenever I traveled with it, I found the weight along with the other gear to be overbearing.<br>

What I'm trying to saw here, is to find a good shop that has both 220 & 330 bodies with an assortment of lenses for you to physically handle. That would be the best test to judge them by. Unfortunately this one bad condition 220 body, left a bad taste in your mouth. Yes the 220 does not have the automatic parallax correction like the 330 has. Once you handle both bodies you will find that both has its PLUSes and its MINUSes.<br>

In this case with the poor condition of the 220, would you get all of your money back minus the shopping?<br>

If so, send it back and take your time handling both bodies if possible. I would check Robert White, as they do get Trade-Ins and for these fine ancient system, you could get it for a song.</p>

<p>Evan</p>

 

<p>Hi Evan,<br /><br />Thanks for the 'voice of reason' :-). I'm glad your thoughts are inline with mine.<br /><br />Sadly, a second hand camera shop is not really an option. They disappeared years ago, non anywhere near me. There is a tiny one in the city I visit friends in often, but nothing in there worth looking at. Handling a camera before i buy it is something I'd love to do, but it's limited to modern cameras 'sadly'. Today, we just have shops that are more like electronic stores, although the Jessops in Norwich is quite good in fairness, they have the largest selection I've ever seen in any shop in the UK, essentially every SLR in production you can pick up and handle, with a large range of P&S cameras too. Alas, Jessops sold up their used stock years ago (along with their rapidly declining reputation)...<br /><br />Well, the postage is a strange one. The day before, I got some odd Yashica 35mm rangefinder through the post (fixed lens), he had apparently sent it by mistake, it hadn't even been sold yet. He's going to refund me the postage on that one obviously, so I figure if i send them back together, i should get my postage back too.<br /><br />This is ebay, btw. I tried the major used stores where I usually look (online), and didn't find much about. I guess this is as much my own fault, trying to look for a 'good deal' or not paying over the odds...<br /><br />Anyway, thanks for your reply, it does help to make sure I haven't lost it all.. after cleaning all that mess off for an hour ;-). It's really not in poor condition or anything, it was just dirty, and had greased up lenses, with large scratches on the focusing screen... but all that combined with the iffy focusing action just makes me think there will likely be issues in the future with it...<br /><br />Richard</p>

<p>Richard,<br>

Guess that these Second Hand Shops are a relic of the past, now that most folks rush to digital cameras.<br>

What about the thought of buying from the US such as Keh.com?<br>

It might work out to your advantage in regards to price.<br>

If it helps, did you try that adapter shop SRB?<br>

<strong><em>http://www.srbfilm.co.uk/</em></strong><br>

I meet those fellows years ago and they were quite nice. I would figure that they would have some "inside information" from folks that they deal with, in regards to good Second Hand equipment.<br>

There is also a fellow by the name Tom Page, whom is a fantastic camera repairman. He would be the ideal guy tot have your cameras inspected prior to buying it.<br>

Not much of an option beside eBay. I guess that you would have to be cautious with future purchases. For every Second Hand cameras that I bought, none were ever perfect without any problems or issues. I factor in a repair into my final price that I pay.</p>

<p>Evan</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Richard, I think you might still be better off returning this camera, maybe follow Evan's good advice.<br /> I am not familiar with any of the UK's, VAT/Import duty taxes, etc...but a few of your fellow countrymen have purchased equipment from KEH Camera Exchange, here in the states. <br /> Many have said, even with the shipping and taxes, not a bad deal at times. <br /> Looking at the KEH site earlier in the week, I see they only had about four un-inspiring offerings at that time, but this is another source for you to consider. Henry's in Canada, might be a source also.</p>

<p>My personal favorite Mamiya TLR is the C330f. So much so, I have acquired two. <br /> The latter C330f's have a better WLF, called the single action finder. It is a little taller when deployed, making the screen easier to see in bright day light. These WLF's are characterized by a longitudinal hinge on each side when deployed. That same design carried over into the later model RB line, and on all RZ's as well. <br /> The older, double action finder is easily recognized by a diagonal support legs, holding the rear of the finder in place when deployed. Often one or both of these legs are missing, which leads to even more light flares & glares into the focusing screen.<br /> Many will say that the C330s model was the pinnacle of the fleet. It was the last, so it is the newest, but again, I feel it suffers from some of same build issues that [i perceive] happened with the C220f. And, beside all of that, prices for the C330-S's are artificially inflated, just because they were the last/newest.<br /> That does not mean they were the best. Others will offer their own opinions.</p>

<p>People will talk about weight. Once you get your camera, go into a camera store, compare the weight of your TLR, with that of one of the more equipped DSLR's w/zoom lens. Not that much different in weight, and all shots with the DSLR must be taken with the camera held-up at eye level. With a TLR, you can relax a lot, just let the camera hang from the strap while shooting. Waist level.</p>

<p>Medium format is a satisfying format, with TLR's being the easiest way to, test-the-waters. Enjoy!</p>

<p>Older style WLF<br /> http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4071/4381842394_8dd32139de_z.jpg<br /> Newer style WLF<br /> Newer style showing how the WLF w/magnifier, almost forms a chimney.<br /> An RZ, with the same newer/better style, single action WLF.<br /> http://www.ojodigital.com/foro/attachments/fotografia-quimica/51300d1244370222-articulo-camara-mamiya-c330f-mamiya-c330f-profesional-001.jpg<br /> http://www.tlr-cameras.com/japanese/slides/9.%20Mamiya%20C330s%20%282%29.JPG<br /> http://www.digitalmediumformat.com:88/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/RZ22_1_S.jpg</p>

<p>KEH link<br /> http://www.keh.com/camera/format-Medium-Format?s=1&bc=42<br /> Henry's link<br /> http://www.henrys.com/Categories/130-Used.aspx<br>

Sorry, I can't get my links to jive with my narrative.</p>

<p>I would advise anyone to avoid the "Baby TLR's." Baby Rollei's and Yashica 44's. These cameras are one third smaller then conventional 6X6 TLR's, but they use the now, long-discontinued 127 film.<br /> Many of these cameras will be listed as being in mint condition. Hardly used. <br /> Well. yeah! There hasn't been a reliable/accessible source of 127 film for years.</p>

<p>Richard, I don't know where you are in the UK so this may or may not be of any use to you, but I have 2 good shops dealing in used pro cameras in my area: Dale photographic in Leeds and Bradford camera exchange. I bought my 330f from Dale and recently sold it on at a profit. My wife also bought her Bronica ETRSi from them last year. Both were excellent. Both shops have their own websites so a quick google may be worth it.</p>

<p>The most important difference between the TLR Mamiyas is the waist level finder. The older design is not fully enclosed so in bright light you allways see reflections from your face on the groundglass.<br>

The newer design, found on all 330s and some 330f and maybe on the latest 220f, is fully enclosed without reflections. </p>

<p>I'm a big fan of the Mamiya TLRs and have the C3, the C220 and the C330. You have the same model 220 that I have. Next to the top spool knob on the left of the camera (as viewed from the back) there is a small tab. Slide that tab downwards about 1/8 inch or so and then push the knob in. This releases the back of the camera. The same knob is pulled out to release the spool of film after it has been shot.</p>

<p>Just wanted to thank all that helped me with this here. The camera is on it's way back, and I've already had the refund, so no harm done. I think I will look at a C220f in the coming weeks, or perhaps even just a Yashicamat... eitherway, they'll have to be in very tidy condition. I've got projects and work to get on with in the coming weeks though, as well as general expenses, so the 'medium format' ideal will have to be put back to bed for a little while... yet again!</p>

<p>Graham Patterson's website Mamiya TLR Summary has all the information on the C series that you could ever want, and probably more:<br>

<a href="http://www.btinternet.com/~g.a.patterson/mfaq/m_faq.html">http://www.btinternet.com/~g.a.patterson/mfaq/m_faq.html</a></p>