M8, tri-x and IR filters...

Please don't let this turn into a debate about the value or quality of the M8 like so many of the M8 threads

do.

 

I'm thinking of getting one. I shoot mostly black and white, (tri-x in rodinal), and instead of duplicating all

of my fast and sharp leica glass in another system, it seems more logical to get an M8 or two. I have a few

specific questions:

 

First, if I intend to use the M8 images in black and white, do I need to use the IR cut filter over my lenses?

I've heard talk that there might be a strong advantage NOT to, as the IR sensitivity of the camera can add

shadow detail, but I'd like to hear from people with experience in such matters.

 

Second, will the IR cut filters have any adverse effect when shooting with black and white film? The idea of

constantly adding and removing filters from my lenses when I switch from film to digital seems like a

major annoyance. But I don't want to sacrifice the image quality of my black and white film work, which

will still be my primary medium. (I currently shoot with good quality UV filters for lens protection, so I

don't mean mechanical degradation of the image. I'm worried about if the color of the filter will change the

image on my tri-x.)

 

Third, same question for color film. I don't shoot it much, but if I were to shoot some chromes with the ir

cut filters on, would the filter affect the image on film?

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated. The camera seems like a good choice for me since I already have

the fast and sharp leica glass I need, and if I switched to another system for digital I would have to carry

two systems and buy a bunch of fast canon primes, which would negate the price savings on the camera.

But if I'm going to have to keep taking filters on and off my lenses, I might reconsider.

<a href="http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0709/camera-corner-the-leica-m8-on-

assignment.html">Bruno Stevens</a> has worked extensively with the M8. Also check out

his photos on Digital Railroad as referenced in the article. His photos in Iran were shot with

the M8.

This is going to be short and quick. You do not need IR filters from black and white. Leica recommends not using the IR filters on film cameras when shooting color. If I recall correctly, IR filters cause problems at the edges edges of wides. I've shot color film with the IR filters with no apparent problem.

Alex is right on both counts; don't use the filters on lenses wider than 50mm for color shooting or you'll get a cyan cast on the borders of your photos (intensity increases in a circular gradient centered on the center of the frame).

 

Filters are not necessary when shooting the M8 in B&W; I did this for several months before I received filters. Some IR-reflective fabrics will show up as lighter tones than on non-IR sensitive film, but this is in practice not bothersome. As an added bonus, if you get a dark red filter you can simulate the effect of shooting IR film in your M8.

Thanks for the quick replies. Anyone shoot black and white film with the ir filters?

 

If I were shooting black and white film with an IR filter, would the same wideangle corner

cyan cast seen with color film cause any adverse effect on black and white film?

 

I guess if I don' need the filters for BW with the m8, i'd probably rarely use them.

<i>Anyone shoot black and white film with the ir filters?</i>

<p>

If anyone does, then they do not not know single thing about the spectral sensitivities of the majority of the B&W emulsions or the purpose of the IR cut filters (not IR filters).

<p>

Why bother with photography?

What Leica writes in their FAQ is actually that you will not see the difference for B&W.<br>

For color, use the filter with the M8 and do not use it with film. The other way around you could get some color casts... That said, I used the M8 for several months before the filter was available... All this fuss was to big. The color cast exists, but it is not dramatic ! Except when colors should be very precise, like fashion for example.<br>

Appart from that little hassle, the M8 is great !<br>

Finally no more time wasted behind my scanner... well I still have archives that will take me years to scan :-(<br>

<br>

Lenny

"Anyone shoot black and white film with the ir filters? If anyone does, then they do not not

know single thing about the spectral sensitivities of the majority of the B&W emulsions or

the purpose of the IR cut filters (not IR filters)."

 

+ Alternatively, they are shooting both film and an M8 in a fast-moving situation where

having to stop and remove/replace filters would lose shots and be a PITA.

 

Noah: Since the IR filters start to cut into the visible light spectrum (red end) in the corners

with wide-angles, you'd likely start to see some gradual darkening of the corners using

them on B&W film, with lenses wider than 35mm. More so with films that have extra red

sensititivity.

 

As to B&W with the M8, some folks (reviewer Sean Reid, e.g.) have noted that the extra

exposure from IR light adds something to the tonality, by boosting shadows and black a

bit in brightness. OTOH, since IR light has a different focus point than visible light, it may

add some softness to the resolution at wide apertures. Personally, I haven't seen a

difference with or without the filters shooting B&W with the M8 over 9 months.

Thank you to Lenny and Andy and the others before for the real-world advice.

 

Andy, you got it, I don't want to worry about the hassle of changing filters when I switch

from film to digital cameras with the same lenses. Since I rarely shoot color film, I suppose

having to throw on the filter for the occasional color digital shoot would be doable,

although a minor PITA.

 

Vivek--your answer added nothing to the conversation and I fail to see why you felt it was

beneficial to this forum. Frankly, it is precisely the kind of post that has kept me off of

this site for a while. I'm a professional photographer doing documentary and

photojournalistic work, and as Andy pointed out I don't always have time to deal with

adding and removing filters in a war zone, or while photographing a celebrity, or when I

have once chance to make a picture of a local event. I made this post to solicit for first

hand experience on the issue since I don't yet have first hand experience with IR cut filters

nor with the M8.

 

Why bother with photography? Maybe because I love my work, I've won tons of awards for

it and get letters from readers of my publication all the time. And because I get to travel

the world and get to meet new people through my work, and I'm always learning new

things about our world that are more important than spectral sensitivities.

 

Vivek, you seem like a talented photographer who is very intelligent. Hopefully you can

share your knowledge in a more respectful and constructive way.

Hopefully you can share your knowledge in a more respectful and constructive way.

 

You have been told, Vivek. Say sorry.

 

I'm a professional photographer doing documentary and photojournalistic

 

Methinks,i would not really not bother with a cam that i had to worry about what filter to stick on the end. Particulary, doing work of the serious kind.

<i>Vivek--your answer added nothing to the conversation and I fail to see why you felt it was beneficial to this forum. Frankly, it is precisely the kind of post that has kept me off of this site for a while. I'm a professional photographer doing documentary and photojournalistic work, and as Andy pointed out I don't always have time to deal with adding and removing filters in a war zone, or while photographing a celebrity, or when I have once chance to make a picture of a local event. I made this post to solicit for first hand experience on the issue since I don't yet have first hand experience with IR cut filters nor with the M8.

 

Why bother with photography? Maybe because I love my work, I've won tons of awards for it and get letters from readers of my publication all the time. And because I get to travel the world and get to meet new people through my work, and I'm always learning new things about our world that are more important than spectral sensitivities.</i>

<p>

No disrespect was intended. If it was not helpful or did not make sense, I offer my apologies.

<p>

<i>Vivek, you seem like a talented photographer who is very intelligent. Hopefully you can share your knowledge in a more respectful and constructive way.</i>

<p>

I will try..

<p>

1. Most B&W emulsions have UV sensitivities, even down to 300nm (beyond deep blue and in the ultraviolet region), while they are only sensitive only upto 600-650nm in the red region (when it comes to pan-chromatic films). Spectral responses of all manufactured films are available.

<p>

2. For the current Tri-X, the spectral sensitivity is as follows:

<left><img src="http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f9/f002_0360ac.gif"></left>

<br>

From the graph, it is evident that one need not worry about any IR contamination.

<p>

However, if you look at the data <a href="http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f9/f9.jhtml">here</a>,

you would notice that any added filter would necessitate appropriate filter corrections. There are none supplied for an UV/IR cut filter. It isn't difficult to determine the filter factor, it would just take a few snaps and some densitometry in the dark room. Simple.

<p>

3. Notwithstanding all the tech talk, quite simply, would you still keep a deep yellow filter (an UV cut filter) on the lens that you have put on for Tri-X when you switch to a color film? The answer would be no. The reverse applies when it comes to the M8 and Tri-X.

Allen--While this goes beyond the original scope of my question, my reasons for wanting

the M8 are several. First, I want it for the same reasons I shoot with an MP and M6 instead

of a film canon or nikon, I like rangefinder shooting. I wish to note up front that I have

nothing against Canon or Nikon or others, I just enjoy shooting with an RF.

 

Second, I already have some fast lenses for Leica. If I switch to one of the other brands, I

need to pick up a bunch of fast primes, so I will end up spending as much money as if I

get the M8. Third, most importantly in practice, carrying two seperate systems is not ideal

for me.

 

However, I hate to say it but I'm beginning to think you're right. If I'm going to have to

keep swapping filters all the time, maybe I should get a 5d or d300 with a few fast primes.

But still I hate to carry two systems.

 

Vivek--I too apologize if I misunderstood or overreacted. And thank you, your new post

was very helpful. To answer your third point, I don't keep a UV CUT filter over my lenses

for black and white, precisely because I don't want to switch when I move over to color

film. Figuring out the filter factor is certainly easy enough, but that's not something I feel

like dealing with either.

 

Thanks again to all of you for you help. I have a lot to think about.

FWIW, I've noticed no spectral/color effects when using the B+W 486 or Leica UV/IR cut filters when shooting C41, E6, or B&W filter. However, I have noticed more flare ("mechanical degradation" as you called it) because, for whatever reason, the UV/IR cut filters don't seem to be coated on both sides like the B+W MRC UV filters.

 

I also haven't seen any cyan fringing w/uncoded 35mm lenses on the M8, including the 35/1.4 Summilux ASPH & 35/2 Summicron ASPH. Then again, that may be because I generally shoot wide-open only indoors or @ night, when such fringing would be less noticeable.

Noah -- it is pretty simple in your case: you don't need to use the filters for black and white.

They will offer no real benefit. Christopher is spot on about the filters causing flare and

secondary reflections though. When there are bright sources in the frame, particularly at

night, you will see secondary reflections. They can be quite bad. At this point, if I am

photographing at night, I take the IR filters off. <P>In any case, if you get the M8 and only

intend to shoot black and white, just leave the filters off and you'll save yourself some

expense and aggravation. If you are going to shoot color with it, however, they really are

necessary.

Noah,

 

If you are seriously considering Canon/Nikon vs the M8, I would suggest you borrow or rent your most likely options. I use both Canon and Leica and they are simply different. I love Canon for IS & AF. For most refined color or b&w work, I find the results from Leica lenses way more satisfying. From what little I've seen of your work (on your website), I would guess you will appreciate the greater precision & detailed "drawing" of your Leica lenses, particularly the wider ones. Certainly, I urge you to try before you buy.

 

--Gib (north Jersey kid now in SF)

Gib, I've decided to hold off for now. I was trying to decide quickly to beat the price

increase, but it's not a purchase to make lightly, so I didn't want to rush into it. And it's

too late now, so I can take my time.

 

I do shoot with canon digital now in my day job at a newspaper (the big north jersey one).

They're great tools and can make fine images, but I don't enjoy the process of working

with them. To my they're too big, heavy, loud and I have a lot of questions about focusing

accuracy with the fast primes in low light. I've learned to work with them and can get great

images out of them, but it's not fun.

 

So a digital RF is probably in my future, but I do need more time to check the camera out

and I might wait a while to see what improvements are made. Thanks for all of the great

advice...

The picture of Ahmadinejad is horrible; nevertheless, I think that trying to shoot the evil in person should be quite difficult. Not photographer`s fault, not M8 fault.