Is this a rare Canadian M2?

Discussion in 'Leica and Rangefinders' started by philippe_vandenbroeck, Aug 20, 2004.

  1. Dear forum members,

    About a year ago I acquired an M2 from a Dutch gentlemen. It is a fine user
    camera with serial number 1017511 and shows the usual engraving 'Ernst
    Leitz Wetzlar Germany'. It appears now that this camera is drawn from a batch
    200 cameras of which were produced in Canada. I am now trying to find out
    whether this camera is indeed one of the 1580 M2s produced in Canada. I
    have send an enquiry to Solms almost six months ago and I didn't receive a
    reply. Maybe there is someone on this forum who can help me out with this.

    Thanks for all input.
     
  2. http://cameraquest.com/mtype.htm

    it might be here
     
  3. Every Canadian M has a larger engraving for the camera identification than the serial number. In other words, the engraving on your camera reads like this: M2 1017511. The "M2" engraving on Canadian M cameras is about 20% larger than the serial number (as if the engravings were done at two different locations at two different times).
     
  4. 1,530 were produced in Canada, bearing serial number ranges:

    937 621 - 937 650
    942 901 - 943 000
    946 301 - 946 400
    946 901 - 947 000
    948 501 - 948 600
    987 201 - 987 300
    1 005 351 - 1 005 450
    1 017 901 - 1 018 000
    1 020 101 - 1 020 200
    1 036 001 - 1 036 050
    1 037 950 - 1 038 000
    1 054 901 - 1 055 000
    1 061 701 - 1 061 800
    1 093 751 - 1 093 800
    1 099 801 - 1 099 900
    1 104 901 - 1 105 000
    1 132 901 - 1 133 000
    1 138 901 - 1 139 000

    unfortunately it looks like your camera is not in these ranges.
     
  5. Tommy: Philippe is referring to the 200 Canadian models produced in the sr. number range 1017501-1022000 (not included in your list). His camera falls in this range.
     
  6. Bill,

    That is according to Cameraquest.com. However my reference is from
    Ghester Sartorius, "Identifying Leica Cameras"

    I guess Philippe will have to tell us if his camera has the enlarged "M2", or
    alternatively if someone has Lager's books to cross verify..

    Cheers Tommy
     
  7. This is a bit academic. To a collector, a Canadian production M2 is not worth any more than a German M2 unless it is engraved "Midland Canada" on the top plate. A very small number were so engraved, far fewer than the 1500 or so Canadian M2s. Dealers or sellers will try to make a big deal out of the fact that it is listed as being produced in Canada, but people are just not willing to pay any premium. The same goes for M3s, some of which are listed as having been produced in Canada. Sorry.
     
  8. Well, actually the M2 engraving is indeed about 20% larger compared to the
    serial number! So this seems to confirm that the camera was indeed produced
    in Canada. Whether this warrants a premium or not is not of my concern right
    now. But it is nice to know that this is a rare specimen. Many thanks for your
    input, especially from Mr. Blackwell!
     
  9. "The "M2" engraving on Canadian M cameras is about 20% larger than the serial number (as if the engravings were done at two different locations at two different times)."

    Is this really so? The top of my M2 looks exactly like Philippe's, with the M2 larger than the serial number. But mine is a button-rewind, #935xxx, older than the oldest in Tommy's list. Maybe the "M2" engraving on German-made M cameras is also 20% larger? ;-)
     
  10. Sorry to say, but larger "M2" engraving does not make it a Canadian version. Every M2 and M3 that I have seen is like that, and they were not Canadian versions.
     
  11. I hate it when I have to contradict myself, but Nick is right. In fact, your camera looks like a standard German made M2 to me. What I said about the M identification engraving was basically flawed; the Canadian style of the M identification engraving is a bit different (and a bit larger by about 20%) than the German version. The Canadian "M2" would almost look stamped on (as opposed to being engraved). These things are often difficult to explain, and I was relying on my memory as to the Canadian M identification. Please accept my humble apologies for the contradiction.
     
  12. The "M2" on mine is taller than the serial number, as well. Mine's not on the list, either.
     
  13. Philippe: This is a Canadian M2...
    009EhG-19277384.jpg
     
  14. FWIW: Your serial number is number 10 out of a block of 400 assigned to M2s in 1961 (1017501-1017900). According to a list in Dennis Laney's collectors guide, these numbers were not tagged as Canadian-made ("ELC").

    Three 1961 serial number blocks were assigned as M2-ELC: 1017901-1018000, 1020101-1020200, 1036001-1036050. Total 250 Canadian M2s in 1961, vs. 9300 Wetzlar M2s (200 black).

    If your camera isn't marked "ELC" or "Canada" somewhere, I don't see any evidence that it's anything other than regular Wetzlar production.
     
  15. Leica has their own online model inquiry here:
    http://www.leica-camera.com/cgi-bin/overview.pl/en/sn2p
    If you type Philippe's SN:1017511 you get "Leica M2" in response.
    If you type Bill's SN: 995050 you get "Leica M2 ELC".
    From that I would conclude that Philippe's M2 is not made in Canada.
     
  16. Interesting, Niels, thanks. If you type in 935500 the result is Leica MP2. What's an MP2?
     
  17. Ok, that settles it then. Frankly, I was getting suspicious when I looked at my
    other M2 which has exactly the same engraving as the one mentioned in my
    first post (with the "M2" slightly larger than the serial number). The second M2
    has serial number 1130342 and it is a regular 1964 Wetzlar-built camera. So,
    I figured it was unlikely that the 1017511 came from Canada. Your input
    confirms that I have two German M2s. Which is fine with me!
    Again, many thanks for your contributions. It's very much appreciated.
     
  18. Doug,

    An MP2 is an MP with electric motor drive. It was designed amd produced for
    professional use... "in spite of the fact that it was the most advanced model
    available to date, was not successful and production was ceased after only
    approximately 15 cameras and as such are extremely rare"

    "it was equipped with the only electric motor drive designed and made at
    Wetzlar. The winders for the M2-M and the M4-Mot were all made by Leitz at
    New York"

    Rarity rating is between R9 and R10 (with motor) so its Extremely rare.

    Estimated value of between $30,000 - $60,000 based on Hove's International
    price guide 8th edition 2000
     
  19. Whoops! Thanks Tommy, I'm rich! I guess I have an MP2... According to the Leica Model Inquiry page, there's a block of 512 serial numbers set aside for the MP2 model, from 935001 - 935512. 935000 is a IIIg, and 935513 is an M2. My button-rewind M2, whose top markings (exc ser# 935087) are identical to Philippe's, would seem to be the 87th body in the MP2 block. I bought it used in 1967 for $150; have I hit the collector jackpot or is there an error somewhere?
    009Ewl-19288784.jpg
     
  20. No Doug, you have a plain old M2. Although 500 serial numbers were set aside for the MP2, they only produced about 12 or so, and the additional serial numbers were probably just used for regular M2s. BTW, I saw an MP2 with the motor and battery and cable connections complete offered for $ 80,000 by a dealer in Britain a few years ago. I don't know what happened to it though.
     
  21. Doug,

    Unfortunately it isn't and Eliot is correct.

    MP2 serial number ranges are:

    935 501 - 935 502 :
    The only two prototypes made in black finish. Camera 935 501 is at the Leica
    museum at Solms.

    952 001 - 952 015 :
    15 cameras in chrome.

    So 17 in total on record. Also, it is most likely that these cameras are
    engraved with "MP2" preceding the serial number on the top-plate.
    Furthermore if yours was an MP2 then it would have significant but subtle
    features on it such as the coaxial ring at the shutter release which was used
    for setting up the motor drive for continuous shooting.

    Leica need to correct their serial number database on their website.. to say
    the least.
     
  22. Oh, well! Not surprised... But good to have a little digging through the resources. Thanks! :)
     
  23. Okay---I ran my M4 thru the Leica site and it came back, "Serial number
    13843XX Product ? Leica M4 Schwz". Any idea what "Schwz" means?
     
  24. "Schwz" means black (in this case black chrome). "Lack" or "Schwz lack" means black paint. The earlier M4s were offered in chrome or BP. The later ones were offered only in black chrome.
     
  25. Thank you Eliot. Much appreciated!!
     
  26. Phillipe,

    My M2 has a 20% larger marking of "M2", and the serial # is 11327xx.
    Is this one of the Canadian M2s?

    Jerry
     
  27. Hi Bill, still there? the camera is in here in Hong Kong...
    I found this page by searching "leica m2 canada" since I found the serial no. is for ELC!
    [​IMG]
     

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