DV camcorder - Desirable features and true 24p frame recording

My father is currently in market for a camcorder and I have been

charged with checking out something that fits his needs and budget.

The previous camcorder I used was an old (10yrs ago) Sharp analogue

tape camcorder which died (fuzzy picture) the last time I switched

it on - This is of interest to me, as I have read that cheaper

camcorders will not last - is this true, can I expect better

longevity from a higher-end professional camcorder than a sub ?1000

pound unit?

 

I have read widely and found that 3CCD, larger chips, Image

stabiliser, are some of the desirable features. I have just heard

about HDV camcorders (Sony) but at over ?2000 (?4000?) these are out

of the price range. ?800-1500 ($1500-2000) better fits the budget.

 

As a Canon fan I looked at the XM2(UK)/GL2(USA). The Canon XL2 or

the Panasonic AG-DVX100A would be nice but are too expensive

although I would be interested in hearing about comparisons with

these units with the XM2 or lower end units.

 

I know the XM2 lacks 24p fps present (it is just

interlacing/progressive) in the XL2 and AG-DVX100A

but would this be noticable in most day to day not involving rapid

moving (30 mph traffic for instance), or would the difference

be 'night and day'?

 

Another model which is not 3CCD is Canon's MVC3i and is the next

model down. How does the XM2 compare to the MVC3i or doesn't it...?

 

The primary use of the camcorder will be for personal use not

commercial. If I was to use it I would be interested in certain

other features:

 

What models allow time lapse photography (I know XM2 does and the

panasonic above - is there any difference between these two models),

manual aperture to blur background (eg portrait videography like

seen with news correspondents) - or is the small CCD on XM2 likely

to mean that a large D.O.F. precludes this? What about effects seen

in certain films such as a metallic look (seen the Mel Gibson

film 'Payback') or am I asking too much of the XM2. BTW which models

would allow these features. I might spring for an expensive

camcorder if I was satisfied that these things are present.

 

Does the XM2 connect to a P.C. with XP to allow editing and

archiving to DVDs, or to a DVD video recorder (editing performed in-

camcorder).

 

Any answers or suggestions to some or all of the above is

appreciated.

I don't know too much about lower-end video cameras but the XL2 and the DVX100 have

true 24P recording; that is, they have progressive chips that scan progressively, and the

signal is written to MiniDV in 30 (29.97) fps with a pulldown algorithm.

 

Many 'progressive' cameras, for example, the Canon GL2, aren't really progressive-scan.

They have a 'frame-mode' which produces a progressive signal at 29.97, but the chip is

inherently interlaced. A progressive frame is produced by some interpolation techniques

and the resolution on the GL2 is reduced to about 70% or so (I don't remember the exact

specs) when shooting on frame mode.

 

The difference between shooting interlaced and progressive, and 30i/p or 24p can

sometimes be very distinguishable, and sometimes not at all. It depends on your subject

movement, camera movement, and the shutter speed that you use.

 

I hope others can weigh in with more pertinent responses to your questions regarding

specific camera models.

Personally, I think you'll be very happy with the Canon GL2 - it's an excellent camera for the price, has an excellent lens and all the features most people would need. It can connect to a computer using Firewire. However, being a prosumer camera, there aren't very many special effects built into the camera - you can apply effects when editing.

Being an XL1(s) user myself, I can tell you that if you can afford an XL1s or XL2, you'll be very impressed by it. The superrange stabilizer on the Canon XL series of cameras is simply amazing and they allow you to add as many accessories as you will every need meaning these cameras won't get out of date very fast.

In terms of the longevity, it is true that the semi pro cameras are much more rugged and will last much longer. The XL series from Canon are made of Magnesium alloy and are very tough.

In terms of the MVC3i, I assume you're talking about the Optura XI?

If you are, it is also an excellent camera for the price, but it doesn't have 3 CCDs, so you probably won't get the same bold colors you'll get from the GL2 or XL series.

All three of these cameras will allow you to manually adjust everything.

Hope this helps, let me know if you have any more questions.

Thanks for the input Kar,

 

"The difference between shooting interlaced and progressive, and 30i/p or 24p can sometimes be very distinguishable, and sometimes not at all. It depends on your subject movement, camera movement, and the shutter speed that you use."

 

For slow panning and landscape shots do you think there would be little difference except for a 30% loss in resolution you mentioned in your answer. Is 24p found in higher spec. models worth an extra ?1000 pound over 30i/p found in the GL2/XM2. Opinions?

 

I have an additional question regarding shutter speeds, I note the GL2 can use slow shutter speeds of 1/6 sec. How does this effect the footage obtained. My perception of shutter speeds relates to 35mm photography not videography. Would I actually 'see' slower movement of captured footage or shutter speed applied in videography here to mean sensitivity of the chip capturing the image?

 

Anyone's comments are welcomed.

 

Cheers

I have just read your post Andrew, thanks for your input.

 

Regarding connectivity to my P.C. - I have only USB, does the GL2/XM2 allow connection via. USB instead of firewire. I realise firewire is faster than USB 1.0.

 

As for the image stabiliser of the XL1s, are you suggesting that it provides more stability than the GL2 image stabiliser.

 

Many thanks.

For panning shots, your main area of attention is the shutter speed you select; something

like 1/60 or 1/30 of a second prevents strobing as each frame has more motion blur.

Shutter speeds in video are just like in still photography; each frame is affected by the

shutter speed in that slower shutter speeds give more motion blur to each frame during

camera or subject movement.

 

There are two possible pulldown techniques for 24p: one writes 24p frames which one

would use if you intended to blowup to film, and another writes it in an NTSC compatible

format at 29.97 so you can edit in native NTSC. Even though with the latter you end up

with the 'same' format as a regular signal, the footage itself has an arguably more 'filmic'

look to it; I believe that 24p capture allows you to use shutter speeds that correlate more

closely to film cameras.

 

Whether you want to spend the extra money on a 24p-capable camera depends on your

intent. I don't imagine you'd be transferring to film (most people don't) but even if your

footage remains in the digital domain, footage captured at 24 rather than 30 sometimes

looks more filmic. It's something you really have to try out for yourself and judge whether

the difference is perceptible enough to be worth the extra money.

 

I think you would be happy with the GL2; it's a fantastic camera. The resolution loss in

shooting in frame mode isn't all that great; I'm sure you can tell if you did tests with

resolution charts and viewed them on a broadcast monitor, but in my experience working

on a film shot with a GL2 (I wasn't the cinematographer) the footage looks fantastic. It held

up quite well against other films shot with Panasonic DVCPro cameras.

 

Something else you want to consider is audio; both the XL2 and DVX100 have XLR inputs

whereas the GL2 lacks them.

Thanks again for the info.

 

"Something else you want to consider is audio; both the XL2 and DVX100 have XLR inputs whereas the GL2 lacks them."

 

I realise there are 4 audio channels although this seems a little fuzzy to me, the GL2 review

 

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/canon_gl2_camcorder_review.htm

 

mentions that the GL2 can dub audio which has been recorded in the SP mode with 12-Bit audio. MiniDV has the feature of four channel 12 bit audio. The audio dubbing feature allows recording on third and fourth channels of a previously recorded tape, with out recording over the original first and second channels. The audio mix feature of the GL2 allows you change the audio levels of both original audio and dubbed audio during playback.

 

If I have read this correctly in the above summary then I can edit the audio post-recording and remove unwanted audio made at the time of recording?

 

I heard some problems with the mic provided were noise in windy conditions. What are the advantages of XLR mentioned?

 

What are the advantages of adding an external microphone - The optional accessory seems to provide directional sound, are there any further advantages?

 

The above review mentioned also indicated that like most DV camcorders firewire is as standard, unfortunately my current computers do not feature 1394 firewire but only USB. What do I need to do to allow me to connect my XM2 to my P.C. without buying a new computer already equipped with firewire? I have noted firewire to USB adapters.

 

Some other Q's:

 

How many times can a miniDV tape be used, are there quality losses with repeat usuage or longevity issues.

 

I have heards 'rumours' of a XM3/GL3, with the current USA rebates offered which seemed to prempt a new model what does anyone think of this suggestion. My father plans to buy early next year.

 

Many thanks

Connecting to your PC using firewire will give you much better results than usb - firewire is the industry standard for transferring video to a computer and firewire cards are quite cheap. Over here in Canada, a firewire card costs about $30.00 Canadian.

The image stabilizer on the XL series is better than the one on the GL2. The XL series uses a superrange obtical stabilizer instead of the regular stabilizer used on the GL2. If you pick both cameras up, you'll instantly notice the difference between the two stabilizers.

In terms of using a DV tape multiple times, you generally only want to use the same tape once, twice if it's an emergency. After the first or second use, the quality does decrease.

12-bit/32khz/4-channel feature: I don't know of anyone that uses that. It's a gimmicky

feature, really; 16-bit audio 48khz is the DV standard and is the lowest you want to go.

Nowadays the standard for motion picture production is 24-bit audio/96khz.

 

If you're doing serious shooting, you definitely want another mic. Not that there's anything

wrong with the on-camera mic, but it's amateur and you can never get the best sound with

it. I don't anticipate you having a dedicated audio recordist, so the best thing would be a

separate shotgun mic shock-mounted to the top of the GL2 on the hot shoe. The GL2 also

allows manual level adjustment, which is crucial.

 

XLR connectors provide a balanced audio signal, which are less prone to noise and

interference. Minijack and RCA audio is unbalanced.

 

As mentioned above, firewire cards are cheap nowadays. Firewire was developed with

video in mind; it supports video because it is time-sensitive and allows the transfer of

audio and video to be in sync (isochronous transfer). USB is more ideal for computer

peripherals.

 

MiniDV tapes can technically be reused several times, but a rule of thumb is to only use

them once for important stuff. Since it's digital, there are no 'quality' losses like in analog,

but the more times the tape is written to, the signal quality is lower and instead of a

gradual loss in quality, you may get intermittent dropouts (blocky artifacts). MiniDV is a

fragile format; always record in SP (not LP) and don't reuse tapes if you can help it.

David,

 

Mini-DV camcorders are a mature technology: you can get excellent results from a very small investment. Features not available in a $500 - $1,000 (USD) Sony camcorder generally aren't useful, and certainly are not necessary. All you need is manual focus, aperture and color-balance capabilities, and an external mike jack (unless you use a separate audio recorder in challenging situations such as a wedding, as I do).

 

If you/he have a few thousand to spend, then buy some basic audio-capture equipment, lighting, fluid-head tripod, top-quality wide-angle lens adapter and hood, extra battery and other accessories, and books on video and movie production. These tools are essential for making a watchable movie more than ten minutes long. An extended warranty, case and UV filter will help protect your investment.

 

We've used "prosumer" 3-CCD Sony camcorders and editing software since 1993 to make two-hour movies. Canon of course makes excellent prosumer gear also. But these days, this gear is not worth the money considering the small improvement in quality. Our three-year-old Sony VX2000 (currently $2,350 USD at B&H), which is superb in low-light conditions, is the last expensive mini-DV camcorder that we will ever buy. However, it is much to soon to invest in High-Definition video equipment, which has some serious tradeoffs and cost factors.

 

Happy holidays!

 

"Brandon's Dad"

To follow-up on peoples responses:

 

- Firewire connection - As noted I appreciate that firewire is the connection technology to use for video transfer. I have a laptop which I suspect the firewire card would be most useful, is it typically expensive to upgrade a laptop to firewire (is there a different external port which is unlike a USB, if this is the case I suspect it would be expensive or not possible to do this unlike installing a firewire card in a desktop).

 

- Although I personally would be willing to spend 3000-4000 USD on a XL-series (XL1s) video camera I would have to justify the outlay versus the use I was going to get. As I am primarily a 35 mm amateur photographer which I find time-consuming enough, this is where I would chose to spend any money on equipment, although I suspect I could get addicted to videography in the same way as stills.

As the purchase is for my Dad who will be paying for it - I have said I will contribute if he gets a higher spec. video camera, for his needs the XL1s is out of budget, too big/heavy and conspicuous. The GL2/XM2 fits the budget and is not too heavy or too big. As an L series user the L zoom on the GL2 with its 40mm-800mm 35mm equivalent focal length and optical stabiliser is spot on.

 

Just of interest though - how many extra 'stops' of steadiness does the superrange optical stabiliser on the XL1s or XL2 offer compared to the GL2's optical stabiliser.

 

"XLR connectors provide a balanced audio signal, which are less prone to noise and interference. Minijack and RCA audio is unbalanced." - What is meant by 'unbalanced', please?

 

I suspect that a wide-angle adapter and an external mic (shotgun mounted) will be additional purchases along with the GL2.

What equivalent 35mm focal length will the wide-angle adapter give and how many stops of light will be lost and is there a noticable loss of quality? What are the advantages of the external mic. that I might not realise right now?

 

I came across HDV on the luminous-landscape site and after reading on various other web sites it is a new format that is out of my budget and I have heard that it is prone to 'stalling' or freezing which would be a problem during unrepeatable performances. Anyway this is just too much to consider and too new.

 

What is the minimal focal length necessary at its widest aperture to obtain a narrow depth of field?

 

Finally, can anyone think of any disadvantages to the GL2/XM2, for instance - low light performance (better with 3CCD?), sound quality in wind I have heard about, etc.

 

Merry XMAS and a Happy New Year

 

Thanks guys!

Any recommended 'making movies' books? Not the gimmicky type but those that read more like a manual with the professional/student in mind with technical details.

About the audio:

 

unbalanced audio has two wires: positive (hot) and ground. Balanced audio has positive,

negative, and ground. Unbalanced audio signals are prone to picking up EM interference,

whereas in a balanced connection (if I remember correctly) the negative signal is the same

as the positive signal but its phase is inverted. So any line noise that is picked up cancels

itself out. A camera-mounted shotgun mic connects to the audio-in on the GL2 with only

a short cable; there should be no discernable difference with an unbalanced minijack

connector. Only when you're sending audio signals across long distances (more than

several feet) that balanced audio has a large advantage.

 

A shotgun microphone provides MUCH more directional sound than the on-camera

microphone on the GL2, which is almost omnidirectional. Good sound is crucial, and is

something often looked over. There are many manufacturers of shotgun microphones--

Sennheiser, Azden, AKG, Shure, the list goes on. They range in price from a couple

hundred dollars to more than the price of the GL2. Yet a cheap shotgun microphone is

almost guaranteed to give you better sound that what the GL2 microphone provides you

with.

I agree about audio being very important and nearly all video cameras come with mics that are almost omnidirectional. By getting a mid range shotgun mic that is unidirectional, you'll only pic up audio from one direction and minimize bakcground noise - especially useful if you're recording someone talking. If you want to use a balanced mic, there is an adapter module available for the GL2 that will allow you to add balanced XLR mics with the GL2.

I'm not really sure how many extra stops the XL's stabilizer will give you, it's more a matter of the camera mving around because if you use a really low shutter speed on video, it gives ia blurry effect. With the XL1 I use, I can comfortably walk around without paying attention to how I walk and the image is perfectly stable. With the GL2, It's still very stable, but you just have to be a little steadier, something that will come with practice as will anything.

In terms of disadvantages of the GL2, there aren't any real ones, but I guess there are cameras with better low light performance, but I can't really think of any real ones - it's such a well designed camera. Wide angle adapters as you mentioned are available for it and are very widely used and as with all optics, the higher their quality the more they cost.

In the end, just make sure you try out the different cameras in the store and make sure you're comfortable with all the controls

Thanks for the replies, some useful info. here.

I have been thinking about a similar purchase and seems to me all the signs point to the Panasonic 3ccd models like the PV-GS400

or the AG-DV30. They seem to have the best bang for the buck and most folks put them ahead of the GL1.

For a laptop you can get a 2port Firewire PCMCIA card for about $20. I saw one with a DV kit for about $50.