Do you think Nikon will abandon F mount users with the release of the Z mount camera body?

I've been shopping for a D750 as a replacement for my 9 year old D700. I almost hit the button on the B&H website to buy it but wanted to check the price on another site and saw the Nikon FX mirrorless teaser. Now I'm waiting to see the new camera and lenses and possible F to Z adapters for my large collection of Nikon glass. Do you think Nikon will gradually move away from the F mount? I also use a Sony a77 and a900 and Sony seems be out of the A mount business.

I expect them to run in parallel for maybe the next 10 years.

 

DX lens support has always been a bit naff utterly dire.

 

If something's gonna go, maybe DX DSLR in a few years and replaced by DX-Z.

If it's commercially successful and Nikon persuades its customers to switch so it's not in their financial interests to continue development, yes. Then those of us using the F mount will have to make do with our fifty years of lenses.

 

Otherwise, it would be suicidal of Nikon to switch away from their core product line until the new line becomes their new core. Unless there's something astonishing about the new system that's not yet clear to us, I don't see all the existing customers jumping ship instantly, so I suspect it'll take a good long time, and Nikon will very likely keep supporting the customers still in the SLR system. And there's no guarantee that the new mirrorless system won't have problems (especially in the first generation). It's an unfair comparison, but look at the 1 series.

 

The D750 is, by market position, due for replacement. I might hold on for Photokina in case there's something there other than mirrorless that would drop the price. If one of the mirrorless cameras fits the D750 market position, either it or the drop in D750 price from upgraders may benefit you.

I don't think they would discontinue the F mount lenses in short time. As Shun said there would be some new F lenses introduced in near future. So if they discontinue all the F lenses after say 1 year (I think much longer than that) then you wouldn't have all the lenses you ever need? Why would you be concerned?

I know there are people who are not happy if the camera or lens they use are no longer made but that doesn't make sense to me at all.

Nikon’s primary goal is to be profitable. As long as there is sufficient demand on F mount products, Nikon will produce them. Nikon introduced Nikon 1 mirroeless merely 7 years ago in 2011, but when it clearly didn’t fly after 4, 5 generations, Nikon finally pulled the plug. Nikon stopped producing film SLRs after 5 decades for the same reason (F6 technically “in production” not withstanding).

 

If the market eventually prefers DSLRs over mirrorless, DSLRs could remain to be mainstream while mirrorless is the sideshow. I am glad that I never bought into the Nikon 1 stuff.

I've been shopping for a D750 as a replacement for my 9 year old D700. I almost hit the button on the B&H website to buy it but wanted to check the price on another site and saw the Nikon FX mirrorless teaser. Now I'm waiting to see the new camera and lenses and possible F to Z adapters for my large collection of Nikon glass. Do you think Nikon will gradually move away from the F mount? I also use a Sony a77 and a900 and Sony seems be out of the A mount business.

 

No, not really. I think Nikon position the new mirrorless camera in a different applications slot than their F mount DSLR system. For example there are rumors (and teasers) about a new Noct-Nikkor which would be unique to the new mount. But they are releasing new F mount lenses as well, e.g. the 500/5.6 PF has been pre-announced and they recently brought out a highly regarded 180-400/4 with built in TC. I think the focus on teles and lenses designed for action will continue to be on the DSLR side whereas the mirrorless lenses try to capitalize on the advantages of mirrorless technology, i.e.,

• silent photography
  
• larger apertures than possible with F mount
  
• travel-friendly, more compact camera + lens setups than possible using the DSLR paradigm
  
• possible new wide angles that will take advantage of the short flange distance
  

I think Nikon's plan is to continue the two as parallel product lines into the future. Currently DSLR sales still exceed mirrorless in the overall ILC market and while this may gradually change, I see no reason why DSLRs would be completely supplanted by mirrorless cameras. Even if that happened, it would take many years, likely decades before it would be practical. E.g. I just bought a 19mm PC which is a fantastic quality wide angle lens for DSLRs (I mean literally, it gives great quality even with shift applied wide open at f/4) and given the slow replacement schedule of PC lenses I don't expect a mirrorless mount version in less than 10-15 years. I don't like the idea of using adapters on a regular basis, there is extra hassle, possible aligment issues, extra work in switching lenses and moving the adapters from lens to lens, the adapter is exposed to elements when swapping lenses and it is possible there will be damage at some point, and the ergonomics is affected as well. I prefer to use native lenses where possible.

 

Some photographers think a fast "transition" is going to take place but from my perspective this is not viable nor desirable. The high-quality optical viewfinder in FX DSLRs is one of the things that make photography fun and pleasant to me. I'm not willing to give it up, nor am I interested in purchasing a whole new line of lenses.

 

The only reason I might purchase the new mirrorless camera and some native lenses is the silent photography feature, if there is practically no rolling shutter (this might take a couple of generations to be realized in a Nikon mirrorless; at present the D850 silent shutter takes 1/15s to read the sensor, which can lead to substantial distortion of the form of a moving subject) as this would be a benefit in some of my applications. But if I'm being honest I am finding that even the "quiet" and not silent photography mode in the D5 and D850 are perfectly satisfactory for me in situations where making unnecessary noise would be a significant drawback. I typically use the Qc mode because the mirror returns automatically whereas the Q mode requires lifting of the finger so it can cause two separate mirror sounds, which I don't like. So for me there is no pressure to go with mirrorless but at the time when the silent shutter is truly fast or global then it is time to investigate the mirrorless system's capabilities, perhaps in a few years, but I would only be interested in purchasing a few lenses for those special applications, not a whole system.

I've been shopping for a D750 as a replacement for my 9 year old D700. I almost hit the button on the B&H website to buy it but wanted to check the price on another site and saw the Nikon FX mirrorless teaser. Now I'm waiting to see the new camera and lenses and possible F to Z adapters for my large collection of Nikon glass. Do you think Nikon will gradually move away from the F mount? I also use a Sony a77 and a900 and Sony seems be out of the A mount business.

My question is really because of the fact that Sony is out of the A mount business you are unhappy with the A900? I am thinking of getting a used A900 to use a number of A mount lenses I have but it seems that the A900 holds its value quite well. It's selling for about the same money as the D3 which were twice its price when new.

But if I'm being honest I am finding that even the "quiet" and not silent photography mode in the D5 and D850 are perfectly satisfactory for me in situations where making unnecessary noise would be a significant drawback.

That's because you, the photographer, are too self-absorbed to notice what others find objectionable. Been there, done that, have regrets.

 

A short flange distance doesn't solve problems for wide angle lenses, it compounds them. The best wide angle lenses for a MILC have a reverse-telephoto design, like a Zeiss Distagon.

 

Live view on a D850 is not like that of an MILC. There is no noticeable delay (~12 msec) for the silent shutter on a Sony A9, for example. Nikon can do no worse and expect to succeed.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Ed_Ingold

I think a move away from legacy F mount support was on the cards with the introduction of E (electronic aperture) lenses. Fly-by-wire lens control makes mount adaption dead easy, by just taking the connections from one end of a simple tube to the other.

 

I think a new mount was as good as 'announced' by the introduction of E lenses.

 

IMO, the F mount will hang around in one form or another, for as long as Nikon continue to make DSLRs.

That's because you, the photographer, are too self-absorbed to notice what others find objectionable. Been there, done that, have regrets.

 

Self-absorbed? Seriously? I'm very concious of any disturbance that I may cause as a photographer and do my best to minimize it. I generally find that the photographer's movement, shoes etc. cause as much or more distraction than the camera sounds, e.g. at weddings. How do I know? I ask about it.

 

The photographer is generally far closer to the camera than other people so they hear the sound from their own camera much louder than other people in the room, so they're also more aware of it. It's also easy to evaluate how disturbing (or not) the sounds from other photographers' cameras are when attending e.g. a class, seminar, PhD defence or similar event. Because I also follow the discussion I can easily tell whether the sounds from the other photographers' cameras are distacting or not. Generally I do not find them distracting as long as single shots are made. Of course, if taking a lot of photos (such as in continuous high speed shooting) the sound may become a distraction but that kind of feature is more used by sports and wildlife photographers than event photographers, thus it is very unusual to hear that sound in the kind of events I'm talking about.

 

When I'm shooting in available light, I often get comments that people were not aware they were being photographed. When using flash people become acutely aware of the photography and this changes the dynamics of the situation. But the camera sound does not have this effect as long as single shots are made with Qc mode or a camera that is naturally quiet (such as D7200, or D810).

 

High fps photography with DSLR is quite loud and can indeed disturb subjects and people sitting near by. But I was never into this type of photography, preferring my own timing to increase keeper rate and reduce the overall image count, as well as imparting my own personality into the images. I still shoot too much but I generally avoid using the high fps capability. If one wants to use high fps then by all means an A9 is the right tool for it, provided that one can afford it and suitable lenses can be found.

 

But, in ballet, classical music or during filming / video recording, I can see that silence is preferable. Appropriate tools should be chosen for such photography. I recognize the value of quiet and silent cameras but find that for my purposes (and the people that I shoot for), Qc is sufficiently quiet. I have had cameras that are "too loud" and got comments / reactions at the time (F-601, D700) but with the present cameras I don't get that, as long as I take appropriate care in timing the shots and behaving in a way that is appropriate for the situation.

 

A short flange distance doesn't solve problems for wide angle lenses, it compounds them.

 

A wide throat diameter together with a short flange distance allows corners to be illuminated better (the mount is more open). A narrow throat diameter may prevent illuminating corners well, but then this shouldn't be the case with the new Nikon mount.

 

Live view on a D850 is not like that of an MILC. There is no noticeable delay (~12 msec) for the silent shutter on a Sony A9, for example. Nikon can do no worse and expect to succeed.

 

I find "for example" quite misleading in that sentence. In fact the A9 is the only full frame sensored still camera which has this feature. It's an expensive, modest resolution camera by today's standards, and comparatively few people can afford it. The majority of Nikon FX users seem to prefer either high resolution or lower price, and there current exists precisely zero high resolution FX (or larger sensor) cameras with a fast electronic shutter.

 

The D850 sensor read time is the same as Sony's high resolution (42MP) model, i.e. 1/15s.

Nikon’s primary goal is to be profitable. As long as there is sufficient demand on F mount products, Nikon will produce them. Nikon introduced Nikon 1 mirroeless merely 7 years ago in 2011, but when it clearly didn’t fly after 4, 5 generations, Nikon finally pulled the plug. Nikon stopped producing film SLRs after 5 decades for the same reason (F6 technically “in production” not withstanding).

 

If the market eventually prefers DSLRs over mirrorless, DSLRs could remain to be mainstream while mirrorless is the sideshow. I am glad that I never bought into the Nikon 1 stuff.

 

 

You left out two other lines of Nikon lenses: large format and the Nikon S rangefinder lenses. Both were highly popular in their day. Both still still at a premium on the used market.

 

 

Kent in SD

A wide throat diameter together with a short flange distance allows corners to be illuminated better (the mount is more open). A narrow throat diameter may prevent illuminating corners well, but then this shouldn't be the case with the new Nikon mount.

The mount in modern cameras, including Nikon and Sony, is larger than the sensor. Other factors are at play in causing vignetting. The only limitation the opening imposes might occur on highly symmetrical lenses, including the original Biogon style and extremely fast lenses. The Distagon design is asymmetrical, and is favored for lenses shorter than 50 mm.

 

Regarding silence, if you can hear the shutter, others can hear it too, and often find it highly distracting. There are concerts and there are concerts. I imagine you could light off an M-80 at a rock concert and nobody would notice, or think it part of the act. At a classical concert or wedding during the service, any mechanical noise is distracting, especially if repetetive. Movie sets and courtrooms are probably the most extreme example of enforced quietness. You probably won't hear complaints unless you really cross the line. Most people, it would seem, are more polite than photographers. (Polite photographers are going to miss a lot of shots.)

 

Besides the A9, the A7Riii and A7iii have nearly continuous live view. It is implemented better in the A9 due to fast image processing, but you only see a brief flicker in the finder at high, silent speed, far less noticeable than the blackout in a DSLR. Earlier cameras would only work for single frames (including automatic bracketed shots) in silent mode.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Ed_Ingold

Photography in libraries and archives has to be silent. Some people use their phones, but in poor light, my J5 produces vastly superior images, usually with the 18mm 1.8 wide open. Or the 10-30mm vr.

If the sound intensity is 60dB at the photographer's ear, then at a distance of 4 meters from the camera it would be 30dB so what might sound to the photographer as similar loudness as normal human spoken communication, would be felt like a whisper several meters further away. Given the kind and quantity of auditory disturbances that people living in urban environments have to endure in their everyday lives, it is my perception that camera sounds do not seem like a big deal. That many people report afterwards having been unaware of photographs being taken while in normal conversation where the photographer was using a wide angle or normal lens and DSLR, illustrates that it is not really a problem for most people in most situations.

 

mechanical noise is distracting, especially if repetetive.

 

Continuous high fps is a different case entirely and that can indeed be a distraction; for those applications, an A9 may be more appropriate if the client budget can accommodate it (naturally with the 1-2 backup bodies with same capabilities). For example for a wedding or a funerql coverage 1-2 shots per minute can easily be sufficient to document the proceedings and the sounds from the photographer's shoes, breathing, possible cough, and visual presence are far more noticeable than the camera sound. Some ceremonies do not permit any photography and that is because the officiants had experiences where photographers went to places they should not have gone, etc. I have been told not to use flash but never got a complaint about camera sound from any wedding or funeral proceedings.

 

Some people are more sensitive than others and, e.g., get upset if a piano is being played during the day in their neighbor's apartment. I can only suggest there are many wilderness areas in the world where one does not have to hear the sounds made by other people in their activities. It is not necessary for people to see and deal with other people.

 

Most people, it would seem, are more polite than photographers. (Polite photographers are going to miss a lot of shots.)

 

You have a very condescending attitude. A good photographer can document the essentials of an event with only a few shots, if necessary. One of the best known Finnish photojournalists, (the late) Hannes Heikura said that he normally just edits and sends forward one photograph from a gig, and said that usually it has been enough.

 

This may not work for a wedding, but generally it is my experience that there is no way to photograph an event without the photographer being physically present at the event and if they are present, they will cause some degree of disturbance. At least the sounds from the camera can give some reassurance to the subjects that they photographer is not photographing something they wouldn't like being photographed. A completely silent camera means the subjects have no way of knowing which moments were captured. I consider photography, even candid type, is a kind of interaction process between phrotographer and subject.

 

Regarding the viewfinder flicker, to me what is relevant only how the viewfinder image appears before I decide to take the shot. When I press the button, what happens afterwards does not affect the photograph, thus the mirror going up and down never bothered me. I want a real time, artifact free image during the time before the shot not after. The view after is irrelevant since it cannot influence the photograph. I can see that some may be bothered by that - by all means buy a suitable camera with no mirror movement to disturb the view. Leica M, Mamiya 6/7, Fuji X100F, etc. But the stability of the EVF view is not very good. It shows exposure variations, pixelated drawing of features, a kind of aliasing, interference effects with flickering lights, and something I would characterize as chaos when the camera is being panned.

 

For high fps photographers, the A9 may well be heaven. In 20fps capture mode its viewfinder is very well behaved. I cannot deal with that kind of image capture rate myself; I would much rather move towards taking as few frames as possible and for me much of the art of photography is in knowing a bit ahead of the moment, when to take the (one) shot that defines the subject or situation. it is not where I am today but I always want to try towards that goal.

But the stability of the EVF view is not very good. It shows exposure variations, pixelated drawing of features, a kind of aliasing, interference effects with flickering lights, and something I would characterize as chaos when the camera is being panned.

You are referring to a 2010 camera, I presume. You really need to get out more ;)

 

Event photograph is not art, it is documentation in an often contrived manner. Ansel Adams is rumored to pick a subject for a landscape, study it for a year, then take the photo. Rocks and trees don't move (that often), and definitely don't complain about the photographer.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Ed_Ingold

It is going to take a LONG time to get a sufficient critical mass to move from SLR/dSLR F mount to mirrorless Z mount.

There are too many F mounts out there for Nikon to walk away from. Nikon cannot alienate their customer base, or they may jump ship to Canon or Sony. And that would cause Nikon to loose market share.

There is an old marketing saying, "it is easy to loose a customer, and VERY VERY hard to get the customer back." So IMHO, Nikon will be doing a lot to keep the current customers from jumping ship. This means supporting the F mount line for many years.

 

And critically, Nikon has to support the pros who are still using F mount cameras. They will still buy the F mount lenses, until they are ready to shift to a Z mount camera. Some may decide to not migrate to mirrorless, until there is an adequate selection of native lenses that they need.

 

A pro might be able to justify the $$$$ change as part of doing business, but an amateur who has built a $3-6k F mount kit over MANY years, is not going to just drop $5-10k on a new mirrorless kit. An amateur like me, may take years to migrate to a new system, with $x allocated each year, as I can afford it.

So while there will be a change from F to Z, I do not see Nikon dropping support for the F mount for a LONG time.

 

And that presumes that I do want to migrate to a mirrorless system.

 

This is the same problem that the software industry faces with new releases of software.

Getting people to upgrade from their old release has been a constant source of frustration for decades.

For a customer, upgrading costs MONEY, lots of MONEY; the direct IT costs, training of users, lost of productivity during the migration, etc, etc. So customers are reluctant to upgrade if there is no or insufficient perceived value in the new release, to make the upgrade worth it.

SW companies want customers to upgrade often, so they don't have to maintain support of the old systems for years.

Microsoft has dropped support of Windows XP, and yet there are still people using it. They are being forced off XP by lack of support from MS and other software vendors, not by a desire for features/functions of the current Windows OS.

So it is with mirrorless. Unless there is perceived value, some/many will not migrate from dSLR to mirrorless. If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

 

Once there is a critical mass of users on the mirrorless system, Nikon might reduce or stop new F mount development support.

Some may decide to not migrate to mirrorless, until there is an adequate selection of native lenses that they need.

If it will indeed turn out the E lenses work (almost) like native Z-mount lenses when adapted to the new mirrorless, then for a lot of pros an adequate set may already exist: both the 24-70/2.8 and the 70-200/2.8 are E lenses. With the exception of the 300/2.8, all the superteles are E and there are a few primes that are E too. There's an 200-500/5.6 and an AF-P 70-300E. So compared to Sony, Nikon may have a much larger set of "workable" lenses right out of the gate making it a lot easier for many to add mirrorless to their arsenal. It took Sony 4-5 years to release a set of native f/2.8 zooms - Nikon may just be short a wide-to-superwide zoom. Nikon surprised everyone with a 14-24/2.8 back in the days - I wouldn't be surprise if there's a Z-mount 12-24/2.8 in the near future.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Dieter Schaefer

The new "Z" cameras will include in the box a lens adapter made by Nikon to keep those legacy lenses alive. Edited August 20, 2018 by donbright

And about 1 month later a fully functional clone will appear at 1/3 the price.

 

However, that didn't happen with the FT-1, never sure why. Maybe reverse engineering the chip inside was never worth it for them?

 

The new vid shows the new 180-400mm f4 F mount on the Z mount body. Unless the adapter has glass inside there's no linear way there's an extra 30mm between lens back, body throat and sensor.

Edited August 20, 2018 by mike_halliwell

While no product line or company will be around forever, I think it is safe to say that Nikon will continue to produce F mount DSLRs and lenses for at least a number of years. For regular discussion about Nikon's up-coming mirrorless cameras and lenses, please return to the existing thread on the teasers:

Nikon New Camera Teaser, FX Mirrorless to be Announced on 23 August, 2018

 

There is in fact another new teaser today, Monday, August 20, with the announcement less than 3 days away.