D600 owners- feedback re AF area please

Discussion in 'Nikon' started by shutterbud, Aug 3, 2013.

  1. I would be grateful to hear from any D600 owners whether they feel their shooting has been hampered due to the AF
    points being very much centrally-located. Looking at the Flickr D600 group has been a real eye-opener. Images
    from this camera seem to have a certain something which non-FX images don't have. As I consider upgrading, I
    have, despite my misgivings about Q.C. been drawn to the D600, which is now, I'm happy to say just in-budget in
    the next couple of months.
    Experiences please.
     
  2. Stephen, this is a Yes and No answer from me. I do not like the restrictions, but a hampering? Probably not. You can work around it by setting "back button" focusing and uncouple AF from the shutter button to the rear button with a Custom Setting . Then you can use whatever AF point you want to focus, then recompose and trigger the shutter with the shutter button. A lot will depend on your shooting style and what camera body you are coming from. Joe Smith
     
  3. Stephen, I received my D600 at Thanksgiving time not long after it was released and loved every minute of using it. It is very easy to have people get on a band wagon about any camera that there is. As far as being hampered by the close gathering of the focus points, not at all as I always only use one when using auto but most times I am using manual focus. If there was only one point it would not bother me. It is so easy to move around to grab the place you want it to be.
    As far as issues with QC I haven't seen any. I have the cleaning equipment for doing the sensor but have not had to use it, not even once. I did think I was close to it but a couple of hard puffs from the Grottos Rocket took care of it. I of course have blown the sensor several times due to dust but most of it I am sure has come from changing a lens in the field, something I have had to do with every camera I have owned. I am sure that at some point I will have to clean it, no big deal at all.
    INHO the D600 has proven to be a very strong full frame camera and for the price I would buy again in a New York minute.
    Have fun with your images and if you do get the D600 I'll bet you will love it.
    phil b
    benton, ky
     
  4. Thanks for the speedy replies. Joseph, I'm not familiar with the backbutton setting but am I right in thinking the AF point would still be one of those used in the 39pt array? Thinking about how I use my current cameras, I tend to use a 3/4 point on my D5100, for off-the-cuff portraits or shooting subjects in-context or hyperfocal length when doing Streetwork, but I really like the touchscreen on the GX1 to quickly go from landscape to portrait depending on what I see coming up. Static objects do I feel, benefit from focussing farther from the centre at times, especially if one is employing a deep field with foreground object. It's really just a question of balancing advantages/drawbacks, but I certainly haven't seen a plethora of posts entitled "Got my D600 and now my pictures all look the same."
     
  5. Thanks for the speedy replies. Joseph, I'm not familiar with the backbutton setting but am I right in thinking the AF point would still be one of those used in the 39pt array? What about in Liveview? Can one focus anywhere in the frame using Liveview? Thinking about how I use my current cameras, I tend to use a 3/4 point on my D5100, for off-the-cuff portraits or shooting subjects in-context or hyperfocal length when doing Streetwork and quite frequently fnd msyelf on the outer rim of the D5100 AF field. I really like the touchscreen on the GX1 to quickly go from landscape to portrait depending on what I see coming up, but of course, one is taking a HUGE hit in term of IQ for this feature. Static objects do I feel, benefit from focussing farther from the centre at times, especially if one is employing a shallow field with foreground object. It's really just a question of balancing advantages/drawbacks, but I assume (and I hope for my assumptions to be confirmed/annulled) that there will be times when I will have to make allowances for the 39pt array. Visualising the focal points from memory, they do not seem to come up to eye level when making a fully zoomed headshot. Am I right in this?
     
  6. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    As far as I am concerned, every Nikon FX DSLR has its AF points too concentrated in the center of the frame, including the D3 family and the D4. In that sense the D600 is a little worse than the other ones since it only has 39 AF points intead of 51, but I think it is not that big a deal.
    Today, some people still use the F5 and F6 as if there were some magic from 35mm film. However, those two SLRs only have 5 and 11 AF points, respectively. We survived those film days and I am sure we can live with the D600. Can the D600 be better? Of course it can be, but none of its shortcomings is "fatal."
    Concerning the D600's oil/dust issue, as usual, it is greatly exaggerated on the internet and promoted by those bloggers who desperate need traffic on their web sites. If anything, the D800 has a much bigger QC issue related to its AF.
    However, since even the $1200 D7100 has the 51-point AF that beats the AF on the D3 family, I expect Nikon will eventually upgrade the D600 to the better 51-point Multi-CAM 3500 AF module.
     
  7. A complete lack of AF points also does not hamper... and that's not trying to be funny, but just for your consideration that for many styles of photography, AF is not a must and manual can work just fine. With AF-S lenses, that choice becomes even easier as you can always instantly switch to manual. One of the main advantages of the FX DSLRs is their much larger viewfinders which make MF work doable (unlike most APS-C DSLRs, though the D300/D7x00 are fine). For me, often enough, doing it manual is simply faster than battling AF points that do not fit my idea of the composition or lack low light lack sensitivity (all the outer points).
    Of course it depends a lot what kind of your photography you do, but well, I basically use AF only for sports, wildlife and events. The rest goes equally fine by hand. And if it does go wrong, I can at least smack myself over the head, rather than get angry with my gear (which would only fuel NAS and solve nothing).
    Coming from a D5100 with its rather dim and small viewfinder, looking through a viewfinder will never be the same again. And well, leaving less to the camera and doing more yourself can add a level of gratification too :)
     
  8. TBH, I find I often have no need/find it problematic to look through the finder or consult the LCD. I've tried hard this last year to wean myself off these habits as I got more into streetwork. Of course for something more composed such as the attached image, a better OVF wil be great- it took a lot of faffing about in liveview to get this and the focal plane is still not quite perfect, since the sun was so bright. I also expect my subjects to change if I get the D600- landscapes and still life objects seem dead or too pat taken with either the D5100 or GX1, no matter what I do.
    00bsiL-541715584.jpg
     
  9. These are the sorts of images I tend to take most pride in, almost always from the hip
    00bsiM-541715684.jpg
     
  10. The D600 is terrific. Yes, the AF points are too much in the center, compared to a DX camera, but the AF is much, much better than my last film camera. All cameras, indeed all engineered objects, involve tradeoffs, and this is one I'm willing to accept.
     
  11. Stephen, this might give you more info on how to set up back button focusing on your D 600. Look in your D 600 manual for Custom Setting for F 4--Assign AE-L/AF-L Button. To have this button focus your AF lenses, select AF-ON. Once set, the AE-L/AF-L button initiates autofocus. The shutter release button can not be used to focus.
    A good tutorial on back button focusing can be found at John Gerlach’s web site. Here is a link to it.
    http://www.gerlachnaturephoto.com/Articles/Article6.html
    It may not be for everyone, but I use it 99% of the time for nature, landscapes and people photography. I rarely ever change then location of the focus point in my viewfinder. What I do is place it on the portion of the image I want in sharp focus, push the AE-l/AF-L button to focus, release it (for static images), recompose the image in the viewfinder and trigger the shutter at the right time. On some other Nikon cameras, there is a dedicated AF-ON button at the rear of the camera right next to the AE-L/AF-L button. For these cameras, you would use the AF-ON button to accomplish the same technique.
    And sometimes I just switch to manual focusing as Wouter has described.
    Joe Smith
     
  12. Ah, got it. I can see the logic here, nicely explained in your link, a clever way of utilising the focus and recompose method.
    I think with a camera like the D600 one would get used to moving the lens on the same focal plane when recomposing, at close quarters at least- using a long tele or wide-angle set to near-infinity would not present many challenges I'd think. I feel certain that if Shun et al do not consider it something to be concerned about, then it isn't.
    Thank you for answering my question.
    [Of course, any more comments re the D600 will be gratefully read. :) ]
     
  13. Those who complain that 39 AF points are not enough...even 51 AF points, are spoilt.
    Why would you need AF anyway for such things like landscapes or portraits? Sports, candids, wildlife, sure.
    We geezers shake our heads. The first half of my career I had no AF at all and the later half I was using the one AF point in my F4. It was just so easy and still is when I get a nostalgic mood and shoot some film. Most of the time we used zone pre-focusing anyway. When you only got a chance to see your shots a day or more later did you see the keepers. Machine gun shooting was frowned upon. The photo editors soon told you if you were uneconomical as it wasted their time. You got a bad name quickly and then you were not given the good assignments.
    Not long after the D3/D300 came out, there were many threads in forums suggesting that the AF engines in those cameras worked better and faster using only 9 or 21 AF points.
    Yes, in the current FX models the AF points are clustered more in the center than the DX models, but if you are any kind of a respectable photographer, its a complete non issue.
     
  14. Yeah yeah, we're all amatuers, none of us know what a REAL camera is, we'd never last five minutes on the streets of Florence trying to photograph a riot, we'd get fired the first time we handed in our pictures 30 years ago. So what? I'm sorry to break it to you but things have changed Francisco and I think if you went back in time and gave one of your legendary pressmen a D600 and a good laptop, state of the art printer and a week-long tutorial on how to use it all, they'd think they'd died and gone to Heaven. I believe an ISO of 800 was once considered pretty darn fast too. Look at the movies from only a couple of decades ago and its quite clear they were working with inferior imaging equipment to those used by the big producers of today. The BBC's latest Top Gear programs are worthy of National Geographic....and I believe they've even been known to use a GH3!
    If I'm going to spend up to 13,000 RMB of my own money excluding lenses I want to be bloody certain the product is what I want, so if I want it in fuschia pink I'll bloody well buy it in fuschia pink!
    Moving on.....
    I'm just back from Sundan and they were kind enough to take their display D600 out of the case for me. It had a ludicrously big 16,000 RMB zoom on it, which dwarfed the body, but then changed it to a more reasonable one. I also tried the D7100. The 600 makes my 5100 look and feel like a toy! I know it's not by any means, but there is such a huge leap in build quality and size I have to say it was a little intimidating, especially with that 2 foot-long lens on it!. Interestingly enough, I found the D7100 seemed as well-built as the D600, albeit on a slightly smaller scale. I had a bit of difficulty with the metering, which I think had been stuck on SPOT on the D600, and I couldn't figure out how to change it with the different layout and the menus in Chinese and was so aware of the person hovering beside me, who was responsible for a camera and lens which amounted to about 9 more than a year of their salary that I did silly things like push the ISO up to 2,000 then forget to retract the flash etc, but I got enough of a feel to make a judgement without taking a rise out of them. TBH, moving from the 600 to the 7100 I didn't notice a huge leap in the AF array coverage- certainly not enough to make it an issue. The price? Well that might be another matter- It's 12,680 RMB for the D600 and 9,999 for the D7100 plus kit 18-105, which I understand is not that great, so if I can get the D7100 body only for around 8k, that's a significant enough saving for me to consider going for the DX, although I believe if I did this, I would feel I'd 'settled', which is really not fair on the D7100. I will keep schtum on this until I've made my choice.
    Many thanks for the comments and advice!
     
  15. The D600 has an amazing AF system, I Shoot weddings and have my D600 set up to use only the centre spot using the AE-L / AF-L button on the back of the camera to focus on whatever subject that I decide to focus on. I can then shoot multiple images of the same subject without having to refocus as long as the distance between the subject or the camera dosn't change.
    Why do we look down our noses at people who shoot with their DSLR set to Auto or one of the other program modes yet were happy for the camera to decide for us what is important to focus on.
    Set your D600 up to use only the single centre point using the AE-L / AF-L button to focus and recompose you will find this is much quicker and easier than trying to move your focus point around to line up with your subject. Off course this all depends on what your shooting.
    The D600 is an amazing camera.
     
  16. I have only just come across this back focus method because there was an update to the Dot Tune Method of fine tuning for Nikon cameras. Engaging the AF-ON gives a more limited set of options for a green solid dot.
    I hadn't thought of using this as a permanent feature so this is interesting to me. I too get a little frustrated hunting around with auto focus target so I may change this.
    Very basic question here though as I would like to understand it a little more, if the AF is disengaged via the shutter button then what is actually initiating the focus using the AE-L / AF-L button?
     
  17. Hi Simon, When the AE-L / AF-L button is set up to focus then as you mentioned the main shutter no longer controls focus. If you have the centre focus point selected and then locked so you don't accidentally move it away from the centre point. Then pointing this focus point to the subject you want to focus on you press the AE-L / AF-L button and the camera will very quickly focus on the subject even in poor light.
    If your subject is stationary You can then release the button and your camera will remain focused on this point if both the camera and this point remain at the same distance, allowing you to take multiple shots of your subject without out having to refocus.
    Alternatively if you subject is moving, press the AE-L / AF-L button and hold it, your camera will continuously focus based on the centre point.
    There has been a previous thread on here discussing this set-up http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00JBd6
    Hope this helps.
     
  18. Stephen,
    With regards to the hipshot/not using viewfinder or liveview... I can see that as an approach (even though I do not mind making it very obvious I am taking a photo - nobody ever slapped me for it yet; and if they object, I won't take the shot), but used like that I doubt a D600 will give better results all that easy - better AF or not.
    Raising a viewfinder to your eye more or less forces one to take a steady position; it's forcing a decent handholding technique. Not emplying such techniques, there isn't an AF system in the world that's going to miraculously save the day, in my view. I'm not talking tripod always and everywhere, but simply ensuring you're stabilising yourself. Not only to hold the camera steady, but also to get that split second to consider light and composition. Focus on making the photo, rather than just squeezing a button.
    As for the problems you describe in landscapes and still life coming to the D600 - sorry, but most of that comes down to light. Between my D300 and D700, I really can't tell which of the two is better at landscapes or still life. Both landscape and still life first and foremost depend on the right light, and FX does nothing to change that.
    Somehow from your replies, I get the idea you expect a bit too much from the D600. Just be sure you have you expectations right - FX has some very compelling advantages, and the D600 seems a magnificent camera. But do not expect it to be leaps better than your D5100 (which has one of the nicest APS-C sensors), nor to work some magic on your photos.
     
  19. Thanks for the explanation John, I can't really see any reason not to use this method of focusing for the subject matter I shoot. I will take a look at that thread also.
     
  20. Sorry, I re-read myself (royally late) and realise I might sound more than a bit condenscending... not the intention at all. It's probably a cynical side-effect of too many "upgrade to FF" threads - and as such not as much specifically aimed at the OP, or anyone else in particular, but more against this idea that FF is the holy grail of photography (and having one, I can say, my photos didn't get much better - but some lenses became a lot nicer, like my 35mm f/1.4...).
     
  21. Hi Wouter- no offense taken in the least. I know I will have to learn how to get the best out of any new body- the GX1 was a long learning experience, strangely- I feel many would-be users give it a bum rap without realising how much potential it has. Mind you, I do want to 'move up' in sensor res. I find with Streetwork, raising the camera to your eye to use the OVF can be the kiss of death, alerting everyone in the area "I'M GOING TO TAKE A PICTURE!". I do at times use the OVF, if appropriate, although close-up and/or in a crowd or queue it's not really advisable if you're trying to get a shot of someone right next to you. I think Street is very misunderstood, even by those who claim to speak for it. I went out this afternoon with my 'humble' D5100 and got a couple of shots.
    00bspy-541730584.jpg
     
  22. Street using OVF
    00bsq1-541730684.jpg
     
  23. Stephen, for the reason that Street is so misunderstood, I do claim not to shoot any street photography. But well, today, I shot several streetscenes, with a Lensbaby that simply cannot be shot from the hip. I stay calm, people around me stay calm.... it can be done, without making people nervous. But different cultures respond differently, for sure.
     
  24. You are right that there are many different ways to get shots and everyone does what they can- as long as a photographer is not deliberately annoying people that's ok in my book. There's one guy on PN, whose name I've forgotten, who proudly states that HIS pictures are inviolable and his personal property, no matter what any subject may feel about it, because he has a responsibilty to 'his art'. That's just nasty, exploititive egotism and I am not remotely interested in anything he produces for this very reason. Another "Street Guru" talks about wanting everyone to 'feel his pain'. Adolescent bollox if you ask me. Being a Westerner also doesn't help in the discretion dept and I have on many ocassions put/pointed my camera away when I feel I might be causing offence- it doesn't do to parade around as a privileged, insensitive tosser when you're trying to capture the mood of a working class neighbourhood in Asia. But sometimes a little cheek goes down quite well. :)
    00bssq-541736184.jpg
     
  25. "Concerning the D600's oil/dust issue, as usual, it is greatly exaggerated on the internet and promoted by those bloggers who desperate need traffic on their web sites."
    Shun, not sure how you can back up that statement. And I think you have made this same statement a few times. If the problem is reported then it is reported. A camera unit either has a problem or it does not. I really do not think people are reporting oil/dust issues if they are not having these issues. What would be the point? I believe the problem is greatly under reported if anything. Every D600 owner I know, but for one, has had that same issue. The salesman, where I bought My D600, told me that every D600 they had sold, but for a small handfull, has had issues with oil/dust, and they sell a lot of d600s. I see no reason for this salesman to exaggerate a problem about a product they sale a lot of.
    I believe this problem to be a design flaw and that Nikon is well aware of what is causing the problem. I believe the problem can not be corrected without a design change, so there is nothing Nikon can really do other than clean the cameras that are sent in and hope for the best. I bet the D600 replacement does not have this problem. This problem was seen in the very first D600s released and are still being seen in new production D600s as we speak. No way a company like Nikon, with the amount of time they have had to look at and research the problem, has yet to figure it out.
    Like I said in another post, just because one has a unit with no problems does not mean there is not a problem. I've had a number of cars over the years that were recalled for a wide spread design/safety problem. None of my cars had any issues from this problem. That does not mean there was not a design flaw that needed to be addressed. It just meat I was lucky with which car I bought.​
     
  26. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Shun, not sure how you can back up that statement. And I think you have made this same statement a few times. If the problem is reported then it is reported. A camera unit either has a problem or it does not. I really do not think people are reporting oil/dust issues if they are not having these issues.​
    Because I used one of the earliest D600 for well over a month. Nikon sent me a test sample as soon as the D600 was available last year. After a month, I never noticed any oil issue, until Lannie Kelly posted about Roger Cicala's article on it: http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00axxj
    After reading that article, I captured some images with the D600 at f22 against a blue sky and sure enough, there was a bit moe dust towards to the top left. I didn't even bother to clean that and continued to use that D600 at more regular apertures. Lightroom shows that I have over 1500 images captured by one of the earlierst D600 and none of them has any unusual oil/dust issue.
    The problem is that once there is such a discussion on the web, everybody is going to start checking their D600 at f22 and of couse they will find most dust on their images than at f1.4 and f8. If you start checking any other DSLR model at f22, you'll find similar issues. See my link to Steve Bingham's post on DPReview in May, 2013 below.
    I believe this problem to be a design flaw and that Nikon is well aware of what is causing the problem. I believe the problem can not be corrected without a design change, so there is nothing Nikon can really do other than clean the cameras that are sent in and hope for the best. I bet the D600 replacement does not have this problem.​
    If it is a design flaw, it should affect every single unit. Meanwhile, we have some very experienced photographers, such as Steve Bingham, Matt Laur, etc. telling us that their D600 have no issues:
    The fact of the matter is that if you starting checking at f22, every DSLR is going to have some dust issues. The problem has been around for years, way before the introduction of the D600. Some self sensor cleaning is a must as long as you use DSLRs. Perhaps some D600 indeed have more issues than some others. Afterall, Nikon did issue a service advisory:
    https://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/18180/~/to-users-of-the-d600-digital-slr-camera
    If you happen to get one with issues, which can happen to any DSLR model, get an exchange from Nikon quickly.
    I would not hesitate to by a new D600 due to this dust/oil concern. However, while its AF still works well, I have some reservation with Nikon using the Multi-CAM 4800 on the D600. Given that the D600 has now taken over the $1700 to $2000 market segment formerly occupied by the D200/D300/D300S, I expect Nikon to update the D600-line more frequently, perhaps every two years or so. So hopefully Nikon will update the D600 with something that has improved AF suitable for an FX body.
     
  27. Shun, I think maybe I take about zero of my wedding photos at f/22. f/22 has zero to do with the problem. Friends that I have who have the D600 and are having the issue also are not shooting at f22. Their spots show up at f2.8, f/4, f8 etc, etc...and so is mine. And I'll say it again, just because you used one unit and had no problems does not mean there is not a problem. "Experienced photographers" also has nothing to do with it. If there is oil/dust on the sensor then there is oil/dust on the sensor. How experienced you are as a photographer does not make the problem better or worse. And no, if it is a design flaw that does not mean every unit would have the same problem. Go back to the car recalls. If Ford is recalling 2012 F-150s, for example, because of a sensor problem, that does not mean every 2012 F-150 is going to have a problem with it's sensor, but enough are as to force a recall. Nikon is not going to recall D600s. I stand by my opinion that Nikon knows what is causing the oil problem but is not going to recall them because of the cost. Plus no one is going to force them to do it like the government forces auto makers to recall vehicles. Yes, I am guessing at this, but there is plenty of examples of this in business. All companies make recall decisions based on cost/benefit. I just believe Nikon does not see any benefit compared to the huge cost of a recall. People are still buying the D600 and Nikon will repair them when asked, so what is the benefit to redesign/recall it? Only insiders at Nikon know the real truth.
    Yes, all cameras will, more than likely, have dust issues at some point. But Shun, the dust/oil problem on the D600 is in the EXACT SAME LOCATION on ever unit that is having problems. If you and others don't see that as a problem unique to the D600, than I not sure what to tell you. If it was just random dust, then Okay, but it is not. It is a problem unique to the D600 and therefor a design/manufacturing problem.
    I've owned three D300 models and two D300s. I also owned two D80 models. That's seven cameras in three different models and not a single issue with dust and/or oil. Not one. I shoot a lot of landscape and birds in flight against solid bright skies. No problems with the D300's or D80's sensors. And I will bet you right now there will not be an issue with the D600 replacement when it comes out. Whatever the problem is, we will likely never know. Nikon is not going to come out and admit they released a $2,000 camera with a problem that they are unable and/or unwilling to fix and basically telling it's customers sorry, but you will just have to deal with it. Yeah, that's never going to happen.
    I,also, would not hesitate to buy a D600 or refer a friend to but one. It's a great camera with a slight pain in the butt design problem. Nothing that can't be worked around.
     
  28. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    "Experienced photographers" also has nothing to do with it. If there is oil/dust on the sensor then there is oil/dust on the sensor. How experienced you are as a photographer does not make the problem better or worse. And no, if it is a design flaw that does not mean every unit would have the same problem. Go back to the car recalls. If Ford is recalling 2012 F-150s, for example, because of a sensor problem, that does not mean every 2012 F-150 is going to have a problem with it's sensor, but enough are as to force a recall. Nikon is not going to recall D600s.​
    Mike, experience matters a lot because photographers such as Bingham and Laur are not going to:
    1. Ignore a real problem that affects their results, which is critical to them.
    2. Falsely report a non issue.
    When people such as Bingham and Laur report, repeatedly, that their D600 have no problem, I believe them. And if their sensor needs cleaning, chance is that they know how to do it themselves rather than just complain.
    Recall is a pre-emptive move. Companies make recalls usually because it is a hazard that can harm people or it is really bad. Nikon has made some major recalls in recent years:
    • Practicaly every early D5000 was recalled because some electronic part would just go dead. Since there is no doubt that the D5000, about $800 new, was sold is much larger numbers than the $2000 D600, the D5000 was far more costly than any D600 recall would be, as shipping and handling cost is about the same regardless of the model: http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00U1LR
    • EN-EL15 recall: http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00aJHo Lithium-ion can be a hazard, as Boeing found out in 2013 (this year) on the 787.
    I have dust issues on practically on every DSLR I use, as I currently do on my D800E and D700, and I begin to notice it on my D7100 also. Since I mainly use f4 and f5.6, sometimes f1.4 and f2, I only clean the sensor occasionally and if there is an issue, I just fix it on those important images in post processing.
    Additionally, Nikon would continue to improve a camera model throughout its lifecycle. Back in the 1990's, an F4 would be current for 8+ years, even after the F5 had been introduced. Nikon introduced the F4 back in 1988 prior to the Souel Olympics. A friend bought one in 1989 and I bought mine in 1990. A couple of years later, his F4 was stolen and he bought a new one in 1991/1992. After that, we got together and he documented some 7, 8 minor improvements between his 1989 F4 and 1992 F4. My 1990 F4 had a couple of those changes. For example, the 1992 F4 required two clicks to remove the viewfinder so that one wouldn't accidentally remove it.
    In other words, if the original D600 shutter had issues, Nikon can certainly modify the shutter design during the course of the D600's production. But at this point, I think Nikon will more likely just replace it with something else given the short lifecycle for DSLRs. I very much would like to see Nikon put a better AF module on the D600.
     
  29. Shun,
    So two professional photographers who use a D600 have not reported the dust/oil problem with their cameras, so there is not a problem with the D600?? So other photographers, such as myself, would have a reason to "Falsely report a non issue" ??
    You said; "When people such as Bingham and Laur report, repeatedly, that their D600 have no problem, I believe them" Shun, that statement makes no sense. When ANY photographer says they are NOT having a problem with their camera I believe them. Why would I not? Only big time professionals tell the truth about camera problems? And chances are a large % of photographers buying high end DLSRs know how to clean their sensors. Takes about 5 minutes or less.
    A camera going dead is a lot bigger issue than a dust/oil issue. So, yes, I would expect Nikon to recall such a camera. Plus I'm going to assume that Nikon knew what the problem was. No reason to recall it to make repairs if you do not know what the problem is. With the D600 Nikon has NO idea what the problem is, or they would fix it. I've seen reports, at least one on here, where Nikon replaced the shutter and cleaned the sensor and the same problem, in the same location, returned. Either they have no idea what it is, Or if they do, the cost of the fix is too great. I'm putting my money on the latter.
    Also, for some reason, you refuse to acknowledge that since the dust/oil spots always show up in the exact same spot on the D600 sensor and is unique to the D600, that it is not a design flaw of some type. This is the third time I've said this. Your response every time is "all cameras have dust problems." I would like you to comment on the statement that the problem is ALWAYS in the same spot on the D600 sensor. Please explain why you do not believe this problem is unique to the D600. Every camera I've ever owned that did have dust, it was random. I would have it cleaned or I would clean it. Then, later, if I got more dust, it was also random. Not in the exact same place. There are reports, on this site, where owner had oil/dust. Sent to Nikon for repairs/cleaning. Was repaired/cleaned and problem returned.......again in EXACT SAME SPOT. How in the world can anyone refuse to see this is a problem unique to the D600????
    I'm sorry to say, but your responses to questions/reports on this problem sound like spin someone working for NIKON would write. I know you do not work for them, but someone new on here reading it I would understand them believing this was coming from NIKON corp offices. Don't know what is so hard about saying .. "yeah, it looks like a lot of the D600 units are having an unknown oil/dust issue that Nikon seems not to know how to fix or chooses not to fix because of cost. The owners reporting the problem are ALL reporting it in the same location, so it seems to be unique to the D600 and NOT common dust issues you would expect with a DLSR."
     
  30. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    With the D600 Nikon has NO idea what the problem is, or they would fix it.​
    Mike, did you ever read the very first thread about this D600 dust/oil issue posted to this forum? That was the first time I learned about this issue: http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00axxj
    Lennie Kelly, the OP of that thread, posted a link to Roger Cicala article reporting this issue: http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2012/10/22/does-the-nikon-d600-have-a-sensor-dust-problem
    Cicala, who owns Lens Rental and therefore deals with a lot of cameras and lenses, wrote in October, 2012:
    We aren’t absolutely certain about the cause but when we have to look at the sensors for all this cleaning, one thing is quite apparent. The D600′s shutter curtain opening seems a bit larger than the other Nikon cameras with a bit of a gap around the shutter curtain. It may well be the shutter movement is pulling dust onto the sensor.​
    And in the 2nd post on Lennie Kelly's thread, Don Baccus (who used to moderate the Nature Forum along with Bob Atkins and me over a decade ago) responded:
    If you read the rest of the post you linked to, they have a hypothesis as to why this seems to be such a problem with the D600, a hypothesis that seems extremely reasonable to me.​
    We are at the end of August, 2013 now, over 10 months since Cicala wrote the original article. Do you really believe that with over half a century of experience designing and making SLRs, if there were indeed any design flaws on the D600 initially, Nikon still hasn't figured out the problem and would continue to ship D600 bodies with known problems to trigger a lot of returns and warranty repairs, both of which would cost Nikon a lot of money? Nikon's management would be complete idiots if they had such a policy.
    I would rather believe folks such as Bingham and Laur, who bought D600 a few months after the initial bunch and experience no problems. I see no reason why anybody's D600 is not as perfect as theirs. However, my advice to anybody who buys a D600 (or for that matter any DSLR) to check their camera thoroughly. On the D600, I would especially look for any oil/dust issues, but I wouldn't fixate on f22, which would show problems we noramlly don't care about.
     
  31. "I would rather believe folks such as Bingham and Laur, who bought D600 a few months after the initial bunch and experience no problems. I see no reason why anybody's D600 is not as perfect as theirs." You are joking, right?
    You responded to one paragraph out of a five paragraph response and totally just ignored the rest of my statements/questions. Okay, maybe you do work for Nikon??
    No, Shun, I do believe that Nikon knows what is causing the problem. It is not happening in every unit, so they will just fix the ones that people return for repairs. It is not costing them that much, there is enough mark up that they are doing fine. They will continue this run until they replace/upgrade the D600 and make sure the problem is corrected in the next model.
     
  32. That's it... I'm going to pass on the D-600 and wait for a definitive response from Nikon, or the new and improved version. I'll give Nikon the time to get through this. I just hope the answer to the D-600 doesn't include a price hike.
     
  33. I don't see what all the fuss is over the D600 oil issue, Yes there is a problem but is an easy fix well was for my D600 cleaned the sensor myself a few times during the first 10,000 shots and now no problems. Love my D600 and think I would be hard pushed to swap it for a D800 if I was offered a straight swap. The D600 oil issue is a genuine problem but has been totally blown out of all proportions. Just saying :)
     
  34. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    You responded to one paragraph out of a five paragraph response and totally just ignored the rest of my statements/questions. Okay, maybe you do work for Nikon??​
    Because you are merely repeating the same argument over and over. There is no point for me to respond to the same thing over and over.
    No, I have a day job in the software industry that as nothing to do with photography. I earn a decent living from it to support my photography hobby. Neither Nikon nor photo.net pays me at all; that is exactly the way I want it so that I can tell people that I have zero conflict of interest. (photo.net management has suggested a few times to pay for my reviews, but photo.net does not pay much and I simply declined such that, e.g. in occasions such as this time, I can claim my independence.)
    Mike, on August 25, 5:15am, you wrote:
    With the D600 Nikon has NO idea what the problem is, or they would fix it.​
    In about 19 hours later, on August 26, 00:30am, you wrote:
    No, Shun, I do believe that Nikon knows what is causing the problem. It is not happening in every unit, so they will just fix the ones that people return for repairs.​
    You are competely contradicting yourself. That is exactly why any debate/discussion with you is difficult.
    Again, from a consumer/photographer's point of view, as long as we agree that there are plenty of good D600 out there, and any dust problem can either be cleaned easily by the owners themselves or we can hold Nikon responsible to repair/replace any defective unit, what is the big fuss?
    John McCosh above probably says it much better than I can.
     

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