Continuation of Jay's thread below

I would like to add a couple of questions related to Jay's thread for

discussion.

 

Like many (I presume), I have a day job I'm not thrilled with. It

pays the bills, but doesn't leave a whole lot of discretionary money

at the end of the month. I have an advanced degree in engineering

and I use it, but the pay is NOT commensurate with the responsibility

and liability I take on. I still owe money on my student loans for

this, as well.

 

I would love more than anything to be a full-time photographer. I am

slowly working on my photography as time allows, spending time in a

rental darkroom, taking road trips when time allows, etc. But there

is usually not a lot of time for this because of my job. And my

shoestring photography budget doesn't help. And my wife is pregnant

with our first child.

 

How many others find themselves in a similar situation? How many of

you have young kids or babies? How many have a hard time separating

yourself from your job to do what you really want? How many of you

are disgusted at the fact that you owe money for the education that

got you that job in the first place? ; ) Does anyone have any

suggestions for overcoming these obstacles, or at least striking a

balance between all these factors? If I had it to do all over again,

I'd love to go back and study photography instead of engineering, but

I can't.

 

Your thoughts?

My sympathies Mike. After 25 years, with an advanced engineering degree and background, my job pays the bills, doesn't leave hardly any discretionary money to spend, and the pay is still not commensurate with what I do. All of the kids are now out of the house but two of them are still in college.

 

Its a very hard choice to make about working for yourself especially with a child on the way. There is no good way to do it unless one has a very substantial nest egg tucked away to fall back when times get rough. And they will get extremely rough early on working for yourself. No matter what field you go into, succeeding at your own business is 99% self-promotion and only 1% talent/skill. And you are tied to it 100% of the time. There is no vacation unless everything is going extremely well for a few days.

 

Good luck in making your decision!

Study the lives and work of Harry Callahan, Imogen Cunningham and Josef Sudek, among others. Each created a body of work that anyone would be proud of, each given circumstances that kept them close to home.

 

"Be content with what you have; rejoice in the way things are. When you realize there is nothing lacking, the whole world belongs to you." - Lao-tzu

Mike, I fully understand what you are going through. Perhaps a little more information from the �Grass is Always Greener� department might help with future decisions.

 

When I said that doing something for a living takes all the fun out of it, I wasn�t kidding. Many photog-wannabe�s think that professional work is all about prancing through the spring meadow, shooting sensitive and poetic happy-snaps of butterflies and pussy-willows. Or perhaps orgasmic, erotic sessions with long-legged Victoria�s Secret models in Tahiti. Let me tell you about the real world.

 

You lie in bed every night in a cold sweat, wondering how you are going to make next-month�s mortgage payments on the house and studio, with only five bucks in the checking account.

 

After a long day of telephone calls to every art director you know, the only project you can find is a 128-page catalogue of wholesale plumbing sundries. At this point, you will take anything to keep the studio afloat.

 

So three days later, a trailer truck pulls up with 32 pallets of toilet seats. For two weeks, ten hours a day, you photograph nothing but toilet seats. Straight-on, three-quarter view, lid up, lid down, etc, etc, etc. And finally you finish, deliver the job and send out your bill.

 

Three months later, you telephone the advertising agency to ask why you haven�t received your check. The story is that some young punk right out photo school has approached the client with an offer to shoot his products at ten percent of what you charge, �Just to get his foot in the door�. The client wants to schedule a meeting to re-negotiate the price everyone agreed on, or he refuses to pay the bill. If you agree to a 90% reduction in your fee, there won�t be enough money even to pay for the film and processing. Meanwhile, the bank is on the other line...

 

Scene #2: A photographer colleague of mine did a day�s shooting for a prominent lingerie catalogue a few years ago, using a famous super model. After she was dressed in her thong and came on the set, he had to continually beg her to put down her cell phone so he could take some pictures. She was getting call after call from her agent about other jobs the following week. For this, she was being paid $20,000 per day. He was getting $900 per day for the photography. The arrangement was that if he didn�t get all the required images, there would be a free re-shoot for which he would have to absorb the model fee.

 

That night at the local bar, all his friends were kidding him about how lucky he was to spend the day with this famous super model in her underwear. Right!

 

Bottom line: you will not automatically have more fun taking pictures (for money) than doing engineering. Professional photography really IS prostitution. With all that it implies!

A basic lesson in economics would do us all some good. You can't say that as an engineer you are not paid commensurate with the work you do. Of course you are. If the job was worth more they would pay more. If it was worth more the competitor would gladly hire you. Each individual in a free market economy is paid what the job he chooses is worth. (Now public sector jobs and others which are exempt from market forces will be different).You can train and aspire to a different job. But in every job there are those paid a lot and those paid much less. If you enjoy photography enjoy it. If you want to make a career out of it you need to look at the marketplace for photographers. If you aren't among the best in the fields of photography with a high market value, you won't make any money there either. (I am guessing even the best plumbing fixture photographers are not paid extremely well.) If you want to pursue it as a hobby look at it as other discretionary spending. Skip the dinner out, the cable TV and the magazine subscriptions you never read and you've got a good chunk of money to spend on film and chemicals.

Mike - I can sure appreciate your position. I have two kids, a mountain of bills, and

bosses that put restrictions on my projects and they sure don't pay me enough for all

the headache.

 

I have been a commercial photographer for 12 yrs and I sure don't mean to complain

or make light of your situation. I left a career that had a profitable future to follow

my love of photography. At that time I was single and had some savings.... now I

have none!

 

I always hesitate to over encourage people to drop their day jobs to follow their love.

Mainly because I know that it is a long road filled with many obstacles, including

yourself, on the way to success... what ever that may be for you. And after all that

you still may not get what you are looking for. You know "The grass is always

greener" thing. Also the act of photographing for money will have an effect on your

photography, photo = love or photo = rent, you choose.

 

A few thoughts if I were to make the jump now. Research the market you are looking

to get into, know it as well as you can and then research it some more. Get involve

with professional organizations to learn some of what you didn't know to ask. Do as

much as you can while you are still employed, there is a long wind up time, some say

3-5 years and in this economy I might say up to 8. Also health insurance is not cheap

on your own. You need to spend at least 50% of you attention on business and legal

learning, ideally you should give more that that. Without the ability to manage your

business and get legally binding contracts to protect your family, your business and

your images your sunk. If you think this is about photography, it's not, it's about

business. Form a plan with time line as to how you are going to make the jump.

Make sure your family is committed with you, I hear the small straight jackets are

quite comfy. Seriously, if they are not on board something will give, photo or

relationship. And last but not least, you need a great long lasting positive - don't let

'em getcha down attitude (this is probably the most important).

 

By the way John is pretty on the money with how it goes sometimes. Forewarned is

for armed.

Mike, you have received some great answers. I bought a Leica IIIF shortly after being married many, many, years ago. Then the kids came and for 17 years the only lens I could afford was an Elmar 3.5, 50m. Now I am retired from the job I never left, good photo equipment is now dirt cheap and I have lots of time for photography. But, I found out something. I love photography, like the people, but I have no real talent - certainly not in an artistic sense. So, I probably made the right decision years ago. Next, suggest you read the lives of two of my favorite photographers, Edward Weston and E. Atget. Financially, they sacraficed everything for their artistic drive. If you have that kind of drive you won't have to ask about what your decision might be. Good luck. Lloyd.

While I am sorry to hear that you are bearly scraping by, be thankfull you have your engineering degree as things are tough all over. Without it you would really be in a fix.

 

Step #1 is to prioritize the difference between need and want. Carefully assess all of your dollars being spent and you would be shocked at what is slipping between your families fingers. Step #2 is to get yourt debt squared away and get some cash into a 401K for yourself and your family. Photography is something that will have to wait until you create some financial elasticity that you do not currently have - PERIOD.

 

Like you I dreamed about a career in photography until I mentored with one for about a month while a Senior in high school. The experience not only scared the &*#$@% out of me it energized my academic goals as this guy was considered the top gun in the entire region and he was literally financially hanging on by a thread and so stressed out that his hands shook when I asked him the tough questions I wanted to know about his business.

 

Life is all about timing and if you focus on getting your house in order and take care of your responsibilities, you will be able to spend more time with photography and just maybe in the future, turn it into a money making proposition.

 

I have spend the last 20 years dabbling with photography while starting and running my own company so I can do my photography on my terms without concerns about clients and many of the items Mr Cook made reference to. That type of work would turn me off completely.

 

What is your objective and what are you willing to do to attain these objectives? Sometimes it takes several years to accomplish your goals, but you have to think about your wife and new child. Good Luck

Dave Schneider, what planet do you live on?

Dave Schneider:

 

Please read Bill Mitchell.

 

Best regards,

I can agree with Dave on one issue, you are paid a salary that achieves an economic equilibrium. Unfortunately, we tend to use the word "worth" which implies some intrinsic value to a job based on its importance to society, or how hard or dilligently we work at it. But the economic reality is that we are paid based on how easily we can be replaced. There is an overabundance of people who would like to be full time photographers and can produce work of at least adequate quality for most clients... thus pay scales are low. Same is true with K-12 teachers... unfortunatly, although their work is incredibly important to the future of society, there is an oversupply of people willing to do the work, and so salaries are low. Being able to slam dunk over Shaq, or bury jumpers from beyond the 3-point line aren't really very important to society, but not many can do it so it becomes "valuable"!

You first have to ask yourself... is your free time is a valuable resource in your life? How much is this really worth to you? Your 2nd question is how can you get yourself into a position not to mess around anymore and get yourself into the right money....they don't teach you how to do this in school. Your third question is how good are you at what you do? Remember....There are really just slaves and masters in the world. Both need each other. None is better than the other. The only problem arises is when a slave thinks it's a master or a master thinks it's a slave. The slave reaps the benefits of non-responsiblity coupled with safety.It does what it is told. The master is independent but can fail if not vigilant. Great artists in general fit the master mold. We all know what prostitution coincides with.

Mike, I wanted to chime in concerning your question and mention some

thoughts.

 

I was in the bookstore today reading up on digital photography from the

perspective of manipulating photographs, since it seems that for what I want

to try to do to make some money at photography, it's going to require my

being able to use a program such as Photoshop. So i'm standing over in the

Photo section of the store when all of a sudden this book falls off the shelf. I

think it was titled someting like, How to Make $25,000 a year in Photography

Anywhere" or something like that. So I figure, how interesting, since I really

need to to make some money, like now. I believe the book was written in

1991, which of course had a better economy, but the ideas in the book are still

sound today. The one thing that was interesting to me, was that the author

(who really came off as an old timer) wasn't really using any fancy equipment

at all; In fact his main camera was a Mamiya C330, but he did also have an

older Canon 35mm with only 2 lenses, one a 200mm which he bought for

something like $25 and the other a 35mm. Later he went and bought a used

Koni Omega I think it was. His light kit was super super simple, one umbrella,

1 lightstand, two lights (one I think was a on camera flash) and he did have a

b&w enlarger, A D2V, and with this he apparenlty did very very well. He gave

alot of different ideas in the book, and I picked up on a couple that I think will

work for me. What I want to say is, maybe just think about photography for

now as a way to help bring in some extra income with the kid coming and all,

and don't get all hung up on the professional full time gig crap. Just do

something simple, and maybe something thats kind of uncommon, but maybe

which there could be customers for, and if you make a few bucks that helps

the family situation, be happy. Cause believe me when I say that in the

greater scope of things, photography means absoutely nothing next to that

wife and new baby coming, Just enjoy your life now that your young and

appreciate the fact that you have a job and hopefully a family and friends

nearby that you love.

To Mike, et al:

 

I simply cannot resist chiming in with my two pennies-worth on this topic which, though it pushes the boundaries of this forum, is close to the heart.

 

I, too, work a job which I consider both thankless and rife with iniquity. I also owe more on student loans than I care to think about. And I don't even use my degree for my job! Very recently (like, yesterday) I was giving this very subject some serious consideration and arrived at some conclusions which, if not entirely satisfying, do give me some peace of mind as to my position in this life.

 

1.) I am very grateful to have a job which DOES pay the mortgage. It's not my first choice of jobs, but at least I have one.

 

2.) The grass always appears greener on the other side of the fence. I have a history of "jumping the fence" to get to the greener grass, only later to regret having made the jump. Perhaps I need to make the most of the grass I have. And perhaps it just might not be so bad.

 

3.) I have an interest, nay, a passion for self-expression through photography. At least I have that. How many people have nothing more to do with their life than to come home from work, turn on the TV to something they're not even watching and do NOTHING? When these people die and look back at their lives, what will they see? What satisfaction will they have that they made something of their earthly existence?

 

4.) No, I do not have the financial burden of a family. That is a mixed blessing. I'll let it go at that.

 

5.) I've discovered how cool ULF is. (This is an admitted triviality gratuitously added simply to keep this post pertinent to the forum.)

 

My point is that none of us live in a perfect world and how we each play the cards we're dealt makes us who we are. I, too, would love to go back and study art and photography. But that is not realistic for me. I hate the fact that I will owe money on student loans 'til death do us part, but I can't change that now. When I think about what is REALLY important to me and what I REALLY want to accomplish in this lifetime so that when I leave this sphere for the next I can feel some sense of satisfaction, the day-to-day rat race becomes almost inconsequential. The quest for further promotions becomes a non-issue. I know what I want to do (and it has NOTHING to do with my "job"). I am grateful that I am developing a personal vision and that I have an opportunity to pursue it.

 

Winning the lottery would be awesome. It would free me from the burden of having to work for a living. But it hasn't happened yet. And I can't sit around waiting for it to happen. I have to choose that which is most important to me and pursue it with the passion it deserves, with freedom from distraction and purity of vision. I am the only one in the universe who can make that happen. And I feel the reward will be commensurate with that responsibility.

 

Cheers,

mike:

 

john cook pretty much painted a realistic picture of what it can be like.

 

when you do photography for a living a HUGE amount goes to pay taxes, studio rent,

overhead, insurance ( liability ) - unless your wife / husband / s-o has health

insurance you have to pay out of pocket too. and that ain't cheep! yeah - you can

sign up for the insurance companies advertised on telephone poles with 1-800 phone

numbers, but they offer catastrophe insurance ( maybe ) or coverage with some

provider you have never heard of, that has one or 2 physicians in your area. with a

kid on the way you are going to need a full boat of insurance and if your employer

isn't hooking you up, that is another expense that costs about $1400 / month ( if you

have dental too ) ...

 

gotta have steady work since you do not get paid every week ...

60 day 90 day waits are not uncommon. often times the bigger the client is, the

longer you have to wait - sometimes a l-o-o-o-o-n-g time ( i have waited 14

months for a check before) ...

 

did i forget to mention equipment? you are going to have to buy respectably new

equipment that will pretty much "impress" your clients - as a potential photographer

they might hire, they are buying " trust" in you that things will come out they way they

want - they don't really " trust " people shooting jobs with miss - matched lighting

cameras held together by duct or gaffer tape, or stuff that has been around a long

block a handful of times. sure, if you want to pull out your speed graphic or whatever

piece of nostalgia you might have to shoot jobs - they might like that. while they

aren't stigmatized as much as they used to be, they'll probably smile and say " wow,

that reminds me of when i was in art school ... " &c ...

but sometimes they might think " jeeze, this guy is using a rag-tag set of gear, is he

ever hired? can he afford new equipment ...? i know i sort of liked his portfolio, but

is he going to be able to do this job for me ...?"

 

portfolio? unless you have a commercial portfolio tailored for the kind of work you

are going for, landscapes & art isn't really going to get you work. maybe for assisting

work ... maybe not

 

sure you can write everything off at the end of the year - insurances, other overhead,

purchases ( equipment ) but you still have to front the money, and pay your bills

when they come in, and if you don't have a steady gig, you are sunk.

 

it's tough - about 90% of the time looking for work (marketing & endless self

promotion ) and 10% actually doing it ...

 

yeah winning the lottery would be great, you could pretty much do whatever you

want, and not have to worry about anything moneywise but the reality is you have a

better chance waking up dead than you do winning the lottery :)

 

good luck!

 

- john

<i>they don't really " trust " people shooting jobs with miss - matched lighting cameras held together by duct or gaffer tape, or stuff that has been around a long block a handful of times</i>

<p>

Interesting. Is this from personal experience? All the pros I've seen working (admittedly, only 4 or 5) have absolutely beater-looking equipment. It's the amateurs with spare cash that have the new, attractive, expensive stuff.

Just an extra point that I remembered from the author I mentioned above is

that he made a point of working locally. Small jobs lead to big jobs as you

network your way along. Alot of the above chatter is about whole hog

commercial photography and you don't get to that stage instantly. You do a

small wedding, a portrait, some signage, photogaphy a sports team, and it

grows. There's alot of ways to make money in the field, and of course hard

work and a continual commitment is the basis for success. I'm learning this as

you are. I have some ideas for me, maybe you can figure out something

interesting to provide some extra money and satisfy your creative need.

William (Whitaker), I was almost nodding my head when I read your point #3. I've said similar things MANY times about my fellow employees. Way too many of them have nothing in this life except steady employment, a DVD player, and a super-size widescreen TV they can spend all weekend in front of, getting fat (or fatter). I am not like that, and I do consider myself fortunate in that respect. I guess you could say that at least some of my ambition in photography comes from trying to lift myself away from those types of people.

 

Now please understand, I didn't post this thread hoping somebody could tell me the best way to quit my day job tomorrow or anything. I realize it will take years of steady progress for that. I was just looking for people in similar situations, and it looks as though there are in fact people like me. I wasn't aware there were so many engineers around this site!

 

And while I understand the basics of a free market economy, I have to agree with Glenn Kroeger's assessment more than with Dave Schneider's. I could drum up plenty of people in my field who would disagree with the notion that we are paid what we are worth. It's not merely hyperbole when I say that there is human life at hand every day we do our jobs. We take on a lot of liability for little compensation. Someone above mentioned the high costs of health insurance. I pay a substantial portion of mine, because my employer doesn't pick up the full tab. Check out the story above about the hard-working photographer who spends days or weeks shooting plumbing fixtures, only to not get paid because some other guy will do it for 10% of the fee "just to get his foot in the door," and now you have to drop your fees or lose work, etc. I can assure you this does not only happen in the fine arts. And incidentally, I've never been a cable TV subscriber, my wife and I almost never go out to eat, I take public transportation to work at a discounted price, I do put money into a 401(k), and I drive a 13-year-old truck. I am saving whatever I can wherever I can to make this happen.

 

Thanks for all the informative responses. This is great stuff, the likes of which I'll never get from the people I know personally.

 

Mike

Boy, I have heard this question before but never have I seen such a comprehensive and accurate range of answers. Please read and absorb.

 

The business of business. You will know if you are cut out for business. Do you fight to win? Are you self confident? Did you chase a buck as a kid? Or did you rather whimsically muse on the beauty of life and it's pleasures. The Cost of running a business is far more that you will ever imagine. Photography is just what your business is about, the letter head, your business will be essentially business. Cost of marketing will blow your socks off and eventually wear you down. With out it, nothing. A somewhat repeat industry but not in the field of nails, hair, clothing, food, building supplies etc...

 

No doubt you will be taking on what ever comes through the door. The customers expectations and demands will surprise you. Your work most probably will never good enough. Winging customers demanding absolute perfection, beyond what they understand. You are creating an end product that is personal, that if defaulted is not resalable to any one else.

 

Commercial? Try having your invoices payed 60 Days, 90 Days 120+? Photography is the only industry where you pay up front for EVERYthig and bill out on lay-by's, never-never, defaulted invoices or the dreaded dollar down and a dollar a week client. Some times you have to make an image out of nothing. Seldom the choice of emotion. You do learn photographic short cuts quick smart.

 

If the lab which you have pre paid should stuff up , and they do, it's your nose that's bloodied.

Your last image is the sum reckoning of your worth. i.e. your only as good as your last print. esp. in commercial work. Arguably the highest capital investment with the highest operating costs and the highest amount of paperwork for the return of any industry. You will need to keep relatively abreast of technology, this costs $$'s. At the moment the digital move offers an unprecedented cost movement against you requiring constant updating to stay abreast. Remember you are competing, not just doing in a static industry, those days are past.

 

Competing for a slice of the cake with wide eyed enthusiasm is the part time adventurer that will cut your prices to shreds and I may add get the work, for and remember this, your target audience regardless of who they are pretty shy on quality recognition but extremely keen on a cost saving.

 

Finally look at a fair group of historical photographic figures. Seldom will you find one that just walked in with out some adjoining fortune or circumstance. What's more, most started early in their lives before acquiring the somewhat dubious taste for wearing the most common of western accessories - the mortgage belt.

 

Cheers from a retired studio peddler now photographing with the comfort of selection.

Well first of all, much of your complaint seems to be about money, and changing to photography will likely make that situation much, much worse, not better. At least initially, and for quite a long time thereafter. And your debts for engineering school don't go away because you decided not to be an engineer!

 

As far as striking a balance, I wouldn't work overtime for mediocre pay. Of all people, an engineer should be able to pay the bills by working minimal hours. Think of all the artistic types who wait tables or do construction for barely over minimum wage while doing their art or going to auditions or whatever in their spare time.

 

Your professional status gives you a lot more options than these people. Consider freelance consulting, for example. Or just look for a job with less responsibility. Then use the spare time to stick your toe in the water as a photographer.

 

If your debts are getting to you, consider what you can do to downsize your life. Move to a smaller place. (Yes, even with the baby -- you'll survive). Sell your new SUV (or whatever) and buy a 4-year-old Honda Civic. It'll run forever. Hold an eBay garage sale of all that crap you've bought over the years that seemed like a good idea at the time. Be resourceful.

 

It's easy to get trapped in a mindset that says you need to live a certain lifestyle. Corporate America wants you to believe this. The government wants you to believe this. (Go shopping at the mall and take a vacation to Disney World or the terrorists win!) It's what keeps us all on our little hamster wheels.

 

Personally, I'm a software developer switching to another (still technical) field, so I'm working about 15 hours a week while attending school full-time. I eat out less and vacation less and buyer fewer DVD's and other crap, but that's OK because I don't have time any more anyway.

 

A final bit of advice: between having a new baby on the way and the economy being in the state it is, this may not be the best time to make a move. Eventually the economy will improve and your wife will be able to work again. So consider sticking it out where you are a little while longer.

Hmm, I just noticed in your second post that you say you don't spend much money. This leads me to wonder why your income is so modest.

 

I went to an engineering school and I know what engineers make. Some of them don't make a great deal of money, but they all make a pretty decent salary. The ones that are real go-getters do pretty well. Ones with an entrepreneurial bent can become quite wealthy.

 

Some people are natural go-getters and some aren't. If you have any doubts as to where you are on this scale, photography probably isn't the field you want to go into.

 

Personally I've always admired go-getters, but I'm not one of them. I'm more interested in ideas and substance than I am in doing the hundred mundane tasks you need to do to hustle a buck.

Mike Lopez..............You are quite wealthy in fact, assuming that you and your family are in good health, that your family is fed, many folks in this country have families that don't have enough to eat, out of work, and around the world of course you have people/children who haven't had a meal in two weeks.

 

I'm at the age where a good percentage of my friends and relatives that I grew up with are dead, I know someone close to me who's paralyzed on one side with a heart pacemaker, he got that way because he had his teeth cleaned and no one discovered his early stage of strep throat, which traveled through the micro-cuts of his teeth cleaning into his bloodstream and turned into meningitis which was mis-diagnosed by his doctor, the infection grew and disintegrated a valve in his heart causing a stroke, open heart surgery, a pacemaker, paralysis, and a medical bill of over a million dollars for his time in intensive care. He competed in long distance bike races, and even at age 51 he was in top physical condition which saved his life since the doctors say that only 10% of folks could've survived advanced meningitis, a blown out heart valve, a stroke, and open heart surgery all within a time frame of 4 weeks.

 

Now he quite depressed and has a reason to be but is beginning to appreciate that he like you still has his life, there's plenty of things you don't have, but you have a wealth of things other folks don't have, you and your photography have a future that will be there until the day you die.

I'll say it again:

 

I'm not poor. I'm not complaining of being poor. I'm not trying to quit my job tomorrow. In my first post I said that my job pays the bills but "does not leave a whole lot of discretionary money at the end of the month." That is not the same as saying I'm broke. Please don't assume you know what I make because you know some engineers. Even if you know an engineer who has exactly the same job description, geographical differences will probably negate your "knowledge" of my income. I don't drive an SUV, nor a 4-year-old Honda Civic. That would in fact be a step up. I was only asking if there are people out there who feel the same way I do, or have similar situations. I appreciate the attention, but I'm not looking for people to question my income and spending, nor am I trying to sound like I'm feeling sorry for myself while there are hungry or paralyzed people in the world. (!)

Well excuse the fuck out of me for offering advice. Sorry I didn't give you whatever answer it was that you were wanting to hear. No, I don't know what you make, and could care less. I do know many, many engineers who make extremely good livings. I guess they just must be smarter, or have more on the ball than you.

 

I suggest it might have something to do with your attitude.

Actually, Mark, I didn't post the thread "wanting to hear" anything. As stated several times now, I was wondering whether there were other people in similar situations. I certainly was not looking for someone as presumptuous as yourself to make so many assumptions about my lifestyle. (Actually, the SUV/Civic comment likely would not have been made if you had actually read my second post before making your own). For you to drop your F-bomb and then question my attitude is very amusing, though. I'll give you that much.

 

And since you want to bring into question how smart I am relative to your engineering buddies, I'll let you in on something: when you say that you "could care less," about how much I make, I think you really mean to say that you "couldn't care less." Or maybe you do actually care about my salary. I don't really care either way.