Color source changed from Adobe RGB to sRGB and back again

<p>This week I was printing out some photos in PSE6 and noticed that the source color space was sRGP and my printer profile was also sRGB. My camera is set to Adobe RGB. I used "Printer manages colors", for a change and the prints were beautiful. This is a Dell all-in-one printer.<br>

I went back to these pictures last night to make sure that these settings were right and now PSE says the source is Adobe RGB! How is this possible? I wanted to write down the settings for these prints because they came out so great and wanted to be able to reproduce this quality with others.<br>

Anybody have any ideas?</p>

<p>Howard,</p>

 

<p>Before anybody can give you a meaningful answer, you must first get up to speed on basic color

management. In just a couple short paragraphs, you demonstrated all sorts of very common

misconceptions and misunderstandings.</p>

 

<p>There are some excellent resources on the ’Net, including here on Photo.net in the Learning

section. They’ll give you the basic understanding to know why what your question

“isn’t even worng”…and, at the same time, make you realize that this is a

truly insane subject, with no good answers.</p>

 

<p>If it helps, most of the problems stem from the fact that modern systems are a series of cobbled-together hacks built on a foundation never intended for anything more serious than shoot-’em-up

games played on a ’70^{<small><u>s</u></small>} TV. On the one hand, it’s

amazing it all works as well as it does; on the other, it’s no wonder it’s as messed up as

it is.</p>

 

<p>Cheers,</p>

 

<p>b&</p>

<p>Based on the initial details you’ve provided (the main factor being, you are using an all in one printer), I suspect that its not fully ICC savvy and that you probably want to send either sRGB or Adobe RGB using Printer Manages Color. </p>

<p>IF you set the JPEG in camera for Adobe RGB (1998), well that’s what you should be seeing. Its just EXIF data (there is no embedded profile from the camera). If and when Printer Manages Color works properly (and that’s only sometimes, based on the OS, the driver and application), it shouldn’t make any difference if the source is sRGB or Adobe RGB (1998) in terms of correct output (you don’t have to have them match). Again, that’s when PMC works as it should, its quite iffy but you say, in the past, it did work.</p>

<p>I have a similar "all in one" (Epson NX400) and get pretty good results printing AdobeRGB <em>written</em> images using "Printer Manages Color" and selecting AdobeRGB in the Epson driver. Printing sRGB <em>written</em> images with the same driver settings gives over saturated reddish results. This indicates that the Epson driver is applying a color rendering that closely follows AdobeRGB as if assigning it to the image as long as it's written in that space. </p>

<p>However your situation as you describe leaves out a lot of variables that make it hard to determine how your printer driver is interpreting the RGB numbers similar to my Epson making it hard to troubleshoot this.</p>

<p>We have to assume the change to AdobeRGB source space in PSE6 gives undesirable print results.</p>

<p>Is your display hardware calibrated?</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>...noticed that the source color space was sRGB and my printer profile was also sRGB.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Did the preview of your AdobeRGB written images viewed on your calibrated display change as well?</p>

<p>From my limited understanding of PSE6's color management setup I think you have to save an image whose embedded color space differs from PSE6's color management policy setup to get it to stick. Not sure about this.</p>

<p>You also said your printer space is sRGB. Where does this say this? In PSE6 or the printer driver?</p>

<p>We need more information because color management integration with multiple devices and software can become a complicated issue involving not just your printer and imaging software but also system level software updates.</p>

<p>Let me go through this again:</p>

<ul>

<li>I have set my camera to Adobe RGB </li>

</ul>

<ul>

<li>I am in PSE 6</li>

<li>In the print menu it shows me that my source color space is sRGB (a surprise considering the above)</li>

<li>It also says my printer is sRGB</li>

<li>I set the menu so the printer handles the color</li>

</ul>

<ul>

<li>The screen image looks fine</li>

<li>The prints for the most part are excellent and very close or spot on to the screen image (a tiny loss of red in one shot)</li>

</ul>

<ul>

<li>Today, I go back to the print menu to check the settings so I can reproduce the results at another time and the menu tells me that the source color space for the same pictures is Adobe RGB. The printer is still sRGB.</li>

</ul>

<p>I have not tried to print with this setting yet because I would like to know what happened. My printer has 2 profiles - sRGB and Adobe RGB. These pictures are Jpegs.<br>

I have been told that matching the color spaces is important (to keep all the variables the same) I can see that trying to to turn an sRGB into an Adobe RGB would be futile trying to fit a too small peg into a too large whole - there's not enough there, there.<br>

I will print out a photo as the settings are now and get back to everyone later. Thanks for the help.</p>

<p>Howard</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>I have set my camera to Adobe RGB</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That doesn’t mean the document has an embedded ICC profile that specifies this, its EXIF data. </p>

<blockquote>

<p>In the print menu it shows me that my source color space is sRGB (a surprise considering the above)</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That could be the issue. I don’t use Elements, I use Photoshop. But in Photoshop, untagged documents are assumed to be in the working space set in the Color Settings. Do you have such color settings in that app and if so, what are they set to? </p>

<p>From my understanding of PSE's color management policies they only offer AdobeRGB or sRGB working space and basically assign either of these spaces to untagged images.</p>

<p>This app still doesn't give an option to convert to these spaces and when opening an untagged image from a digital camera that wrote the numbers in the AdobeRGB space without embedding the AdobeRGB profile the only way to get a decent preview is to choose Full Color Management option in PSE's Preferences. You still have to save that image to embed PSE's AdobeRGB profile.</p>

<p>We need to know what your color management policies for PSE are to sort this out.</p>

<p>The ICC profile as EXIF data explains a lot why Photoshop 7 wouldn't see the embedded AdobeRGB profile when opening my camera's jpegs that were set to capture in that space while CS2 and CS3 (they read EXIF data) now open them without an untagged image dialog box warning automatically showing correct previews and showing the Document space is now AdobeRGB which is what my Working Space in Color Settings preferences is set to.</p>

<p>The thing is CS2/CS3 are really not automatically assigning/embedding the AdobeRGB profile to my jpegs because everytime I close the image without editing, it asks if I want to save changes when I haven't performed any. The automatically assigning my Color Settings Working Space of AdobeRGB is the change to the image that isn't seen.</p>

<p>Confusing as hell.</p>

<p>Elements does not have a color setting that I know of but PSE has an Image drop down dialog when you are looking at a photo that has 1) remove profile 2) apply sRGB profile and 3) Greyed out - apply Adobe profile. I assume this means my selection has the Adobe profile.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>From my understanding of PSE's color management policies they only offer AdobeRGB or sRGB working space and basically assign either of these spaces to untagged images.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That makes it a bit easier. Its probably Assign (or better, assuming) one or the other. The document, as far as its concerned is untagged even though there’s EXIF data from the camera describing the origins set on the camera. </p>

<blockquote>

<p>Elements does not have a color setting that I know of but PSE has an Image drop down dialog when you are looking at a photo that has 1) remove profile 2) apply sRGB profile and 3) Greyed out - apply Adobe profile. I assume this means my selection has the Adobe profile.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Sounds like a good assumption. I don’t use the product so I’m guessing this is correct (it makes sense). IF indeed the document with the EXIF data specifying sRGB is indeed sRGB, what results do you get if you use the apply sRGB option? </p>

<p>I need to make a correction in my last post. </p>

<p>When opening an AdobeRGB written jpeg straight from my digital camera in CS3 with AdobeRGB Working Space set in Color Settings, I don't get an "Ask To Save" prompt when closing the file. However I still do not get a dialog box prompt indicating there is no embedded profile. </p>

<p>Now when I change my Color Settings RGB Working space to sRGB and reopen the same jpeg I now get the prompt that the embedded profile doesn't match the current RGB Working Space.</p>

<p>Decided to test even further whether this image really has an embedded profile or not by attempting to extract the profile using OS 10.4.11's Colorsync action script "Extract Profile" and got nothing except this dialog box warning:</p><div></div>

<blockquote>

<p>However I still do not get a dialog box prompt indicating there is no embedded profile.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>This can depend on the preferences setting in Photoshop>File Handling>Ignore EXIF Profile Tag. </p>

<blockquote>

<p>Decided to test even further whether this image really has an embedded profile or not by attempting to extract the profile using OS 10.4.11's Colorsync action script "Extract Profile" and got nothing except this dialog box warning:</p>

</blockquote>

<p>There is nothing to extract as its EXIF data, not an ICC profile. Try assigning, then saving the document. </p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>

<p>EXIF Data and the Lie about Your Color Space: For whatever reason, when a consortium of Japanese camera manufacturers came up with a method of identifying the RGB color space of their camera data using EXIF data, they did so in an obscure and confusing way. In 1999, the Japanese digital camera industry implemented a “standard format” they called Design Rule for Camera File Systems version 1.0, or DCF for short. In that specification, the EXIF data simply specified whether the camera data was encoded into sRGB based on the matrix setting configured on the camera. If a camera encoded the data to Adobe RGB (1998) or any other available color space besides sRGB, the EXIF tag was set to “none,” causing Photoshop to produce a Missing Profile warning dialog if the color settings were configured to warn the user. This caused all kinds of problems, to the degree that Adobe had to produce a plug-in for Photoshop 7 (and a setting in the general preferences for Photoshop CS as well as CS2) called Ignore EXIF profile tag. This sets Photoshop to ignore the color space specified in the EXIF data and the result is a Missing Profile warning dialog, which allows the user to pick the correct profile to assign. In late 2003, DCF 2.0 was introduced and it does specify Adobe RGB (1998) in the EXIF data. Not all new cameras necessarily support this, however. None of this has any effect on RAW data although it still does apply when a camera is set to shoot RAW+JPEG files. he bottom line is you need to know what EXIF data is being saved in your camera files if you don’t capture and use RAW files. If you set the camera for a specific color matrix for a processed JPEG (or similar file), you will need to assign the correct profile upon opening the document in Photoshop.</p>

</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Andrew, much appreciate your reminding me of information I had long forgotten about which supports my claim of how confusing all this crap is, and no, I'm not blaming Adobe for it. Interesting FYI, though, about the Japanese "standard format" DCF and all the other stuff.</p>

<p>Don't know how photographers are expected to know/remember all this, but I guess that's the price to pay for using a digital camera.</p>

<p>How the heck do you remember this, Andrew? Your mind must be a steel trap.</p>

<p>I can't imagine what Adobe has implemented as a work around for Elements/PSE6 or even if there is one.</p>

<p>Just turned on "Ignore EXIF Profile Tag" in CS3's File Handling Preferences and now I get the prompt of no embedded profile in my AdobeRGB encoded jpeg.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>

<p>How the heck do you remember this, Andrew? Your mind must be a steel trap.</p>

</p>

</blockquote>

Hardly! I just looked it up in my book (PDF).

<p>Wow! You have to go back and reread and review your own stuff.</p>

<p>I get that.</p>

<p>Thanks for the reminder.</p>