Chemical Free For All

Okay...

First of all, a disclaimer. I don't know if it's going on FOR SURE,

or if any of what I suspect is indeed happening. It's just a

personal observation and curiosity.

At my work, there are both kodak and fuji starters, and kodak and

fuji replenisher boxes lying around. (Frontier 340 and FP363SC-AL

film processor).

Lets say you're redoing the chemistry at the monthly dump, you could

use a kodak starter in the first tank, but you don't have all kodak

starters, you have a couple of fuji. so it could be fuji starter

here kodak starter there, and then when it asks for a replenisher

cart, you drop in the Fuji box, or Kodak, depending on which one is

lying around and if the photo tech feels like going to the back to

get the same box as the one that's in there. so you could very well

have Kodak paper that's going through several different combinations

of starters and replenishers... I mean, surely there must be

something going on, with all these different possible combinations

of chemicals?

for instance, your film could have been run through a fuji-

replenished bleach that was started with kodak, fixed in a fuji-

started, fuji replenisher, washed in a kodak started, fuji

replenished rinse solution. then for your prints, kodak-started,

fuji replenished developer, etc etc etc.

Originally, as some of you may remember me posting, we were supposed

to go ALL kodak by a certain date and not use any more fuji

chemicals. now it's basically "use whatever we send you." we have

fuji 8 and 5 inch, kodak 6 and 4 inch paper. Mostly Fuji starters.

The Frontier's drank 3-4 Fuji carts, so I guess it should be pretty

Fuji-d out by now... but it makes me curious.

Remind me not to go to your lab!

Starters are not interchangeable. You wouldn't want to use Fuji developer(or bleach)with a Kodak starter, or vice-versa.

You are smart for recognizing the potential problem. I suggest you bring it to the attention of your co-workers and manager so that you don't get into colossal control problems.

If I understand what you are trying to ask buried in there, yes you can mix Kodak and Fuji chemistry. The Bleach, Fix, Blix and Stabilzers of both companies can be mixed. This is with the understanding that the stabilizers that I refer to are the older formalin stabilzers, and the chemistry is intended for the same process.

By the latter I mean mixing Kodak and Fuji C41 is legitimate in the above instances, but not RA with C41. It also means that it should be deep tank with deep tank or minilab with minilab, but not across processing equipment types.

Make sure that treatment time is the longer of the two treatment times for the chemistry involved, if there is any published difference in the time that a solution is to be used.

Developers and starter solutions are quite 'iffy' for mixing. I would not recommend mixing any of those. You may end up in a big mess as far as seasoning your process goes.

Ron Mowrey

This is the very first time I'm proferring a disagreement with Ron. He wrote:

"Developers and starter solutions are quite 'iffy' for mixing. I would not recommend mixing any of those. You may end up in a big mess as far as seasoning your process goes."

...And I agree 1000% with his contention with the E6 process! :)

BUT...

The Fuji Frontier uses a closed loop system for controlling process shifts... That is, if the operator has sense enough to run control **film** strips -- which I give Jesse credit for! -- to feed back the shifts in the film process variables, so the printer's CPU can apply the proper control vectors to compensate... Just like it does when the paper is changed.

Essentially, my point is this: Don't try this trick with analog minilabs; but digital minilabs that can **properly** compensate for **small** upsets in the C41 and RA4 processes.

--------------

All that being said, I would still borrow a few teaspoons of the right starter from another lab if it involves the C41 or RA4 developer. If the C41RA bleach isn't seasoned, I wouldn't worry, since it's a terminal process: All that will happen is that it will be a little on the strong side.

[Ron: Since both E6 and C41 bleaches are terminal processes, why bother with starter to begin with when mixing working tank solutions??]

well we run strips in the morning after we rinse the racks, etc. we're a 24hr store. the fuji guy that does the 6 month inspection/service was shocked at how clean our machines were, even left a note saying "cleanest I've seen so far". it made me proud. :) I subbed at another store for someone who called in (a store that closes) and the sludge and build up deposits in their film processor was absolutely appalling. I stayed there for a good 30 minutes cleaning all the crap off the rollers and guides.

i guess my concern is that I would feel more comfortable with ALL the solutions being started with fuji starters, and being replenished by only Fuji chemicals, or vice versa with Kodak. I don't like the idea of all these combinations.

Jesse:

What exactly is the calibration "workflow" you use when you run test strips on the Frontier? I.e. is it two closed loops, or is it a single closed loop?

[The first is where you run a C41 film test strip and check it with a densitometer & adjust the film chemistry; then output a digitally printed paper test strip and run it through a densitometer, where the curves are fed back into the controller. The second is where a film test strip is run, scanned and printed, with the paper exposure compensating for process shifts in both the C41 and RA4 baths.]

Just curious which shortcuts, if any, Fuji takes... After all, we're talking washless C41-RA in the Frontier, and C41-SM in the FP363SC! :(

Dan;

See the response above my first post from Dan Sapper.

He is right and my comment agrees with his. Don't mix developers by Fuji and Kodak and don't mix developer starters by Fuji and Kodak!

As for the other solutions in any process, you may mix and match to your hearts desire (except for non formalin with formalin stabilizers), and there will be no problem. I have even added C41 bleach and fix to RA blix (knowing the proportions) and have mixed C41 bleach with Bleach III, (knowing how). The trick is to use the longest time published for the slowest acting single product in the mix.

As for starters, these preseason the solution to contain ingredients that may not be there in the fresh solution, but the starters are (IMHO) not necessary in the bleach unless it is to adjust the pH more finely. I have never checked that out in a seasoned process, so I cannot answer your question. Perhaps Dan Sapper has more information that he can share.

Bleach pH will tend to rise during seasoning if no stop is used in C41 and will tend to go down if a stop is used. The same is true of RA processes. You have to be careful of both situations. Going down will lead to more rapid bleach / blix exhaustion and going up will lead to stains.

Ron Mowrey

i don't think you guys understand what im saying.

what i'm saying is that, let's say you have three tanks

[1][2][3]

Tank 1 was started with Fuji, tank 2 with Kodak, 3 with Fuji.

that's what I'm saying. i'm not saying "mix the kodak and fuji starter in tank 1 because I have half a bottle of both."

as for the calibration... first we run a C41 test strip through the FP363SC, which comes out in about 13-14 min. Usual while the film strip is running through I'm rinsing the Frontier racks/rollers. Then when the film strip comes out, I let the densitometer do its thing, and start up the Frontier. if the filmstrip comes out good, then I initial it and put it in the drawer where this week's strips go. When frontier warms up I run the paper control strip through. That gets fed into the densitometer too.

<i>"As for starters, these preseason the solution to contain ingredients that may not be there in the fresh solution, but the starters are (IMHO) not necessary"</i>

okay. let me clarify. lets say the developer gets contaminated. you have to drain the tank, and then flush it out with 7L of water. then you put in 4L of water, and add "Part A" of the developer starter kit. then you add another L of water and add "Part B" followed by more water. (the amounts may be off. been a while since I started a tank). when I say "starter" that's what i mean, those chemicals you use to make a fresh batch from a dry tank.

<p></p>

<i>"check it with a densitometer & adjust the film chemistry"</i>

HAHA.... can you imagine how many labs would be down each day if the toddlers that ran them actually had to do more than drop a new replenisher cartridge in?? (I shouldn't talk; put me in with an older minilab and I'd probably do the same thing ;)) our Frontier and the 363 have an ethernet connection so that they, Kodak (we're schizophrenic; one week we'll be sending our test results to Kodak and Fuji the next. I think it's based on whoever happened to be cheapest that week), and the densitometer can have their chats. we don't adjust anything unless the p1 tank has turned to orange juice and the densitometer is screaming bloody murder "PAPER PROCESSOR BAD - DO NOT PROCESS CUSTOMER WORK - Technical Support will call within One Hour." when that happens, the nice lady from Fuji or the evil wench from Kodak will call and tell you what to do. usually just drain the offending tank and pour a starter kit in...

Jesse;

What I said does not go against what you describe. That mixture is possible and should cause no control probems whatsoever.

Ron Mowrey

(this was also posted on myspace, but it's late and i don't feel like cleaning it up)

well kiddies, today i walk into work and see one of our photo techs (the one i used to fight with and say was lazy as hell, now we're cool) taking the front cover off of fujimie. i ask her whats wrong, and she says that she needs to replace the P1 tank solution, because kodak FINALLY called, about 7 hours later for the "PAPER PROCESSOR BAD - DO NOT PROCESS CUSTOMER WORK" error [DO NOT PROCESS CUSTOMER WORK and that little screebly noise it makes shold have been a really big indicator to NOT PRINT]. keep in mind that she had been printing on and off all day for the 1hrs that came in. i wasnt mad at her because i was proud of her for trying to bring the lab back up. i was also proud of her for running 3 ctrl strips to confirm the problem. [i think they learned from my last rant ;)] so one of the assts tells me to clock in early so i could help her. she had like 12398719187 customers. so i was like "let me do the chem cuz Ive done it before" she was like "ok cool." so i dump the tank and refill it, and restart the machine.

the reason she was printing is because our head photo told her to, "as long as the "print condition setup" comes out okay." that's fucked up logic right there. The PCS is based on the calibrations the densitometer makes by reading the control strip. If you run a PCS after getting a bad result, you're throwing off the calibrations. basically it's telling Frontier "This is how it should look based on the control strip readings I got." it's the same thing as making a milkshake with rotten milk, if there is indeed a problem with the solutions. only by running control strips do you know if the milk tastes good or not enough to drink, basically, and the PCS print makes it taste perfect, based on the milk you have.

after restarting frontier i get a [PAPER PROCESSOR QUESTIONABLE] result, which isn't good enough for me. i don't process for anything other than [PAPER PROCESSOR OK - PROCESS CUSTOMER WORK]. would you eat at a restaurant with "questionable" food preparation practices, or go to a hospital with "questionable" equipment? the next photo tech coming in is like "ok" when i tell him i got a questionable result, and not to print until i get a call from kodak. well so i call kodak like 20 times during the time he's on break. no joy. there's also another photo tech there, the same whore who only ran ONE control strip months back when the 363 was down. she really, really pissed me off. she told him to go ahead and start printing, because "it wasnt a bad result and YVONNE SAID TO GO AHEAD AND START PRINTING AS LONG AS THE PCS COMES OUT OKAY", she freakin yelled over me when i was trying to explain to her that just because the machine says 'the density and setup corrections were ok' does NOT mean that it's okay to process. you could have half cranberry juice in P1, and frontier would use the readings from the contorl strip passed through that to create a ctrl strip which would OF COURSE come out okay.

so anyway, as if that wasn't enough. the poor photo tech [not the whore] made the mistake of saying "the oasis hasn't worked right for a couple of months now, it's always acting up." then he had that "oh i shouldnt have told him" kind of look. I didnt get angry at him because it's not his fault.

HOW MUCH MORE OF THIS AM I SUPPOSED TO TAKE?!!

the very instrument which is supposed to ensure that our processing solutions are kept up to par, within spec, is FUNCTIONING ERRATICALLY OR NOT AT ALL?!!!!!!!!!

I've seen a few times now where it says NETWORK ERROR - FTP mumbo jumbo.... but in my view you SHOULD NOT PROCESS until you recieve the OK from the oasis. otherwise you're putting the quality of the customer's work on the line!!!!!!!!!!! "we don't want the downtime" and "we need to make photo sales" thinking.