Bronica SQ-Ai vs. Pentax 67II

I have posted this message to the Pentax 67 group and do so now to

Bronica users in order to receive the benefit of their input as well.

For P67 users, please accept my apologies if you receive this cross

posting.

 

I am in the process of purchasing my first medium format camera and

have decided that I'd like to have at least a 6x6 or 6x7 format, with

metering through the lens as a basic feature. I will want to use this

camera in the field, mostly landscapes and closeups of floral

subjects, but also informal portraits. While expecting to use a

tripod, I will also want to be able to take handheld shots. I'm in

Canada and cannot afford to get into the Hasselblad system, or the

Rollei, and do not want a rangefinder (although, because I will want

to take handheld shots on occasion, I will look again at Mamiya

rangefinders before making a final decision on this type of camera,

which would be more accomodating of hand-held shots, I am told).

 

I am attracted to both the Bronica SQ-Ai (with the AE prismfinder) and

the Pentax 67II (withthe AE pentaprism). However, given my desire to

use my new camera in the field, I am mindful of the ongoing debate

about the stability of such large cameras when handheld at slower

speeds, and I have some other questions as well:

 

1. Which system would perhaps work best as a handheld field camera

given their different operating components. At what speeds can I

expect to go down to with each, or will it be more or less the same

for both system? In other words, can I expect to get steadier results

with hand-held shots (taken in reasonable light with reasonably fast

film) at, say, 1/125 or perhaps even slower, with one camera or the

other?

 

2. In general, which system would seem to offer the best range and

quality of lenses and results? Which system, in the long run, is

likely to allow me to add lenses at a more reasonable cost?

 

3. Which wide-angle lens and which macro would be the preferred

choices for each system?

 

4. Finally, have I missed a possible competitive camera selection in

this price range, given my desire for at least 6x6 and metering

through the lens? Both the Mamiya RZ67 and the Bronica GS-1 seem very

heavy by comparison and may rule out handheld shots altogether. I

will, however, look again at the Mamiya rangefinders.

 

Thanks in advance for any advice or opinion that anyone might have.

And, again, my apologies to anyone who receives this posting twice.

 

Peter Gale, Toronto

A few suggestions based on my experience with the SQ-Ai, I have never used the Pentax. First, forget the AE prism. It has limited metering capability, it's heavy, makes the camera clumsy to handhold and it costs a bundle. A good quality handheld meter gives you so much more metering capability at a lower cost. For landscapes and closeups you certainly don't need the speed of the internal metering, for portraits you'll probably need fill flash so the AE prism is sort of a waste. For handholding an SQ-Ai the waist level finder is the best solution. It allows you to brace the camera with your body and suspend it with a neck strap. That said I rarely use it handheld, if the shot is worth getting it's worth lugging the tripod along is my opinion. With any prism the SQ-Ai really needs the grip to be used handheld for any extended shooting, it's ackward to hold the body at eye level otherwise.

 

I use the PS50 lens which is excellent, the 40 is reported to have more distortion and is also bulkier and takes a huge front filter. I use a S18 extension tube on the 80 or 150 lenses when I need to get closer and also use diopters on occasion. (You certainly are going to have to have the tripod along when using any of these combinations.) I also use a PS250 which is a fantastic lens.

 

The Pentax 67 has a reputation for more mirror and shutter vibration than many medium format systems. With mirror lock up on a tripod this wouldn't be a factor.

Peter:

 

>4. Finally, have I missed a possible competitive camera selection in this price range, given my desire for at least 6x6 and metering through the lens?< and earlier... >I will want to use this camera in the field, mostly landscapes and closeups of floral subjects, but also informal portraits.<

 

Well, it is NOT 6x6, but it has the BEST macro lens in MF history, which would also serve admirably as a portrait lens -- Contax 645 + 120 Macro.

 

While the C645 is an auto-focus capable camera, the 120 is a manual focus lens -- but it is incredibly sharp. Contax's TTL metering is superb, and even works (albeit in spot mode only) with the prism removed. It is also fairly light and very hand-holdable. IMO the grip makes verticals easy (assuming the prism is attached) so the main advantage of the square format gets somewhat mitigated. As a small bonus, you'll pick up 4 extra images per roll of 120 over the B and 6 over the P.

 

Lastly with your desire for macro, Contax offers a 220 "Vacuum" insert which insures that the film is dead flat at the moment of exposure, providing the utmost in critical sharpness is obtained at the film plane.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

I've been using a SQ-A for 5 years now. I have the body, AE prism, WL finder (which rarely gets used, but is useful for low level shots), 2 6x6 backs, 1 645 back, the speed grip, and 40, 50, 80, 150 & 250 S lenses (these are the older version).

 

With the speed grip and AE prism, it is as easy to shoot handholding as my Nikon. Feels more secure than the P67 I have held. You can literally wrap your hand around the grip. I rarely shoot handheld but should easily work at 1/125 or 1/60 with shorter focal lengths.

 

I shoot mainly B/W landscapes but the versatility of changing film backs in mid-roll is the #1 advantage over the P67. If I want to shoot the same scene in color, it takes 30 sec. to change backs.

 

Again, I'm shooting the older S versions of the lenses and so for have no qualms with them. The newer versions are supposed to be better. Would like to have the half stop apertures though. I use the 40mm alot, but then I live in the open expanses of New Mexico. (I also use 20mm on my Nikon alot.) I have no experience with macro but would recommend extension tubes over the macro lens.

 

The P67 lenses will be cheaper to buy because they don't have the leaf shutter built in. The P67 is at a disadvantage for flash/fill flash because it syches at 1/30, the Bronica at any speed.

 

Brian, Albuquerque

Hello Peter,

 

both Pentax and Bronica make superb cameras and lenses. Don´t forget Mamyia and the fully mechanical (!) Hasselblad. SLRs with an exchangeable back are more flexible (changing type and/or speed of film in the middle of the roll) - not possible with Pentax P67.

 

From my own good experience with Bronica (SQ-B, a SQ-Ai without all the electronics) for landscape and macro work I can say the following:

 

1. An external handheld meter is much more useful than an internal meter.

 

2. A waist-level-finder is much better for macro work and landscape photos. With portraits, many models feels more relaxed working together with a photogreapher who doesn´t stare at them with a camera at eye-level, but looks down instead - so again better suited.

 

3. With 1. & 2. being like that, the through-the-lens-metering isn´t relevant for you in the first place.

 

Because of 3., think about non-electronic SLRs like SQ-B, Mamyia RB, Hasselblad 500CM etc. They all are really cheap compared to their fully-electronic brothers.

 

50mm for wide-angle perspective, 80mm for normal perspective and 150mm or 180mm for portraits are the standard. All big and renowned companies produce lenses that are extremely well nowadays - forget the differences between Hasselblad, Rollei, Bronica etc.

 

With Bronica lenses (called "Zenzanon") the "PS" line is thought to have slightly better colour-transmission due to an improved coating.

 

I use a 150mm with a +2 diopter lens for macro work, although the PS 180mm (a macro lens) is better and more flexible, but also way more expensive.

 

In MF I always use a solid and sturdy tripod, i.e. a wooden one (Berlebach, german brand) or a Manfrotto 055 ("Bogen" in the U.S.) - forget handheld shooting unless you have e.g. 1600ISO B/W-Film and you want to shoot "on the run".

 

Regards,

 

Gereon

By virtue of the fact that you intend to move into Mf,I guess you plan to obtain the best results from your photography.In this case,I would second the use of a tripod for your landscapes and all bar informal portraits(it will be a must for 'flower work).Other than that,the Pentax 67II is a fantastic camera and would be the better choice if you didn't mind whether your pictures are squares or not-the Sqai's prism is pretty archaic though there's nowt wrong with the rest of the system.

I'd suggest two things: first of all, get these cameras in your hands. The Internet only goes so far. There may be something about a camera that you love or hate, and you won't know it until you get the camera in your hands. This is a major capital outlay--don't let the first time you see the camera be *after* you've purchased it.

 

Secondly, you might want to think more about whether or not the square is really for you. Some love it, some leave it. Format choice is often said to be the first issue one should solve before deciding what camera to get.

Peter,

 

(1) I agree with Garvey P. Take a look at whether the 6x6 format will ultimately satisfy you. I find it constraining for landscapes, even though I currently own the Bronica

 

Second, decide whether interchangeable backs and leaf shutters are necessary. I use Bronica, because of its leaf shutters and its portability. I use fill flash a great deal. Most of what I do now is environmental protraiture, often candid, rather than pure landscape.

 

(2) Over many years I've owned five 6x6s and two 6x7s. I had the original P67 system for at least 15 years. I thought highly of it; however, hand-holding the normal lens below 1/125 was problematic often enough to be annoying.

 

The SQAi has proved superior in this regard for me. With the motor drive, AE prism, and a large Linhof quick release plate attached, I handhold the 80mm lens with sharp results to 1/30. (I added the extra weight, because I'd learned I was a much steadier combat shooter with heavier firearms.) I do my own darkroom work, so I'm able to eliminate some of the variation that comes from comparing systems via someone else's lab work.

 

(3) I once owned a Mamiya RB. I sometimes used it handheld, but it was vastly inferior to the Bronica. The RZ is a wonderful system, but I think it belongs on a tripod most of the time. The revolving back is great for landscapes.

 

(4) Bronica and Pentax are perhaps the best values in initial purchase price in medium format. Bronica, especially, is a comparative steal used, but you have to be patient. Most US sellers overprice their used Bronica equipment. I also wouldn't pay US prices for new Bronica, because their resale is (undeservedly) low.

 

(5) If pressed, I would select the P67 or RZ for landscape work. I'm used to using 4x5 and 8x10, so the tripod limitation doesn't bother me for landscape use. I like both systems. If I was doing a significant percentage of portrait work, I'd buy the RZ. If I wanted to do a significant percentage of sports or wildlife, I'd buy the P67.

 

(6) I backpacked the 6x7s frequently. But they don't have the easy mobility of 35mm. In my opinion, if mobility (a la Galen Rowell) and handholding are significant concerns for you, I'd probably stay with 35 or seriously consider 645.

 

(7) 6x6 is a compromise system in my view. It allows one to do a bit of everything. But there are tradeoffs. I often miss the 6x7 rectangle.

 

Very best wishes.

I've already given my two pennyworth elsewhere but if you do take format issues seriously you might like to look at my web site on www.photography001.com where there are a lot of square images , and a few 6x7's.

Wonderful website, David. Wonderful photos too.

this idea that the Bronica GS-1 is heavier than the Pentax is not accurate. The GS-1 is marginally lighter than the Pentax, and a fine choice for the purposes listed. My personal feeling is that none of the 67 SLR's are compatible with "handholding".

 

www.georgestocking.com

You too George. Excellent work.

If you are going to carry a heavy camera, better do it for a good reason. That good reason (apart from the large area of the captured image) is the flexibility of having intergeangeble backs.

 

Holding is no problem with the speed handle or motordrive for the SQAi - comparable with the Pentax. You'll find that projection of 6x7 transparencies more complicated by the lack of projectors - no problem with 6x6.

 

The only fact that Pentax has for it is that 6x7 frame. rintingwise, the 6x6 format poses no problems: after all, it was good enough for A. A.

 

Even with the advent of digital, the medium format still holds the supremacy in optical projection of transparencies.