A Delicate Subject

There are some really good photos posted on this website.

Unfortunately, there are very many that are poor and banal photos,

lacking interest or subject, composition, and proper exposure.

There's more to this than just differences in tastes and style.

Ironically, either out of politeness or political correctness, rarely

are the comments very critical (and perhaps honest). This is

unfortunate and a dis-service to the forum IMO, and perhaps to the

photographer as well.

I find it easier to give constructive criticism face-to-face than on a

public forum such as this. Without the facial expressions and

vocal inflections that make up a substantial part of personal

communication, I find that critical remarks can too easily be

mistaken for put-downs or outright slams. It takes a skilled and

experienced teacher to present on-line criticism in a positive

light. I also feel unqualified to comment on photography that is

outside my field of expertise, wildlife. Certainly, technical details

and basic composition are nearly universal but as far as subject

interest is concerned, I'm limited in what I have to say.

Joseph do you mean the Forum or the whole website?

 

I guess you are a very brave guy (and your portfolio contains nothing but technical and aesthetic masterpieces) if you are now going to become an arbiter of what is good and what is not. Good luck.

 

My own (quite new) portfolio of assorted pics is there for anyone to critique. They are NOT perfect, they are NOT to everyones taste and some may consider them poor and banal. Good, it shows that we all different.

 

Joseph, please start on mine. I will not be upset. I will be one of the 'safer' less volatile members to criticise.

 

I am off now to check out your portfolio. I am expecting a real treat.

 

Thanks.

To save time, here is the link....

 

http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=146784

The other problem with critiques on a forum such as this is that

the people who post on this forum range from new beginners to

amateurs and pros who have been photographing all of their

lives.

 

I might see a photo that I think is lacking in style and substance,

but if someone is just starting out, it might be an

accomplishment and a good step in the right direction for that

person. So I almost always shy away from the critiques, even

though I normally love to discuss photographs.

One of the main problems in my opinion is the lack of editing that occurs here. But as someone else stated many of the users of forums such as these are newcomers, and one of the hardest things to learn is how to properly self edit. I know a number of shooters who have been at it for years yet still don't know how to edit effectively. But forums such as these are replacing to some degree the 'photo-clubs' of the past, in which skills like these were learned. As long as someone is trying I think it's right to try and nurture them, if that's how you'd like to put it. This is a general forum, not a critique service for pros and semi-pros.

"This is unfortunate and a dis-service to the forum IMO, and perhaps to the photographer as well." - I expect you mean yourself with "the photographer". To my humble opinion, if you post a photo here with the subscript "please critique", than everybody should be free to point out whatever critique they have. However, a lot of photo's are posted for very different reasons (lens comparison, composition question, ..), those photographs can be bad (whoever judges that) and do not deserve politically uncorrect comments. Regards Mark Wentink.

I read somewhere recently that photography is the #1 hobby in the world with tens of millions participants. Golf is pretty big too. So it makes sense that there will be a big disparity between good, bad and in-between. The important thing is to enjoy what you are doing, makes no difference whether you are an accomplished pro or a duffer. We all see a lot of 'duffer' quality photography I like to think it is important to revel in the enthusiasm of the duffer. Photography is like a craft, you have to learn how to do it and the more you do it the better you get.

I know there's a range of photographers on this Leica forum from novices to accomplished. Even given that, it's important to provide feedback to the photographer regardless of skill level, perhaps more so for beginners. Lest they will always be duffers. Criticism can be critical and constructive.

IMHO, what we usually see on this forum - - regardless of whether it is a photograph taken by a true artist or the first attempts by a "newbie - - are our individual video screen projections that can only approximate the actual photograph. Much is usually lost, both in scanning and compression for transmission, and then on the monitors most of us use. Monitor size, type, inherent color accuracy and selection of the number of colors displayed will affect what we see. Personally, about the only valid comments I can make pertain to the subject matter and a gross approximation of composition. Anything else would be based on my guess as to what the photograph *really* looks like.

 

Case in point: We've all seen reproductions of Vermeer paintings in newspapers, slick magazines, and even in museum catalogs. You think you understand the paintings, based on these reproductions; however, if you've ever been fortunate enough to actually see a Vermeer painting, you suddenly realize that none of the reproductions you've seen really portrayed the heart and soul of the original.

Excellent point George. I've noticed some of my own photographs translate well to the screen, and some indeed do not.

You're quite right, of course, Joseph. But this is more of a social club than anything else, and people don't like to piss off the other club members, understandably enough. Really good, successful snappers would be unlikely to post their pictures here - why should they?

The Photo Critique Requests section of photo.net (the one in which people use any ol' camera) is often quite good--a crop of rich, compelling, even challenging images in a host of styles.

 

Well worth regular perusal.

IF there is one thing I've learned, there is no accounting for taste or sense of "art". I recently heard on an NPR interview, that these days, in order for a photographer to be considered artistic, his subject has to be "almost unrecognizable, have some sort of 'artistic' out of focus subject, printed very high contrast, and have almost no literal representation". This from an art critic as an international art sale held in Florida last week.

 

The message was that, Dorthea Lange, Ansel Adams, et. al. with their perfect composition, exposure, and focus was passe'.

 

So, given all of that, what is "art"?... this subject has been pounded into the ground. Personally, I don't know if I subcribe to the HCB quote that 'focus is a burguois concept', but I generally don't care TOO much if focus isn't exacly perfect.

 

I also, don't personally enjoy looking at a shallow DOF photo of an ingrown toenail, but apparently some people do.

 

I guess "art", like "beauty" is in the eye of the beholder....

Bob, do you mean like this?

 

(I dont have an ingrown toe-nail pic. Sorry.)<div></div>

I agree that criticism is best done in person. It will certainly be more effective if you know something of the shooters background, abilities and what they were trying to achieve with a particular photo before you make a comment. On the receiving end, any criticism you get on this forum might be easier to take since there is a degree of anonimity; the posters don't really 'know' you, after all, so it's easier to ignore any comments of the 'your pic sucks' variety.

 

I will say that I have to wonder when someone on this particular forum posts a pic to demonstrate the superior 'bokeh' of their Summinocticron when all the pic really proves is that they should sell the damn thing and use the money to fill their fridge with film until they learn something about lighting and composition.

The other matter that affects the shots posted here is the lack of a true audience for them. Plenty of people around here are competent, even talented, photographers who could produce work of distinction--if they truly set their minds to it.

 

But this board is all about "Leica Photography," which term would be incomprehensible to the luminaries (and Leica users) we champion.

 

So the posted photos tend to coalesce around narrowly defined and sanctioned ideas about street photography and portraiture--which can be pretty mundane, given the small sample of what's posted.

 

Then there's the prevailing notion that this is an equipment forum, not an image forum.

 

Occasionally we get some great series from India, Tibet, the West Bank, Vietnam, the adoption of a child from Asia, protests in New York and Paris, etc. Let's not forget that we've seen some good stuff. We just don't see it very often--which is the nature of good stuff.

I agree with Preston. There are quite a few very accomplished photographers that post on this site regularly. (See Ian MacEachern) Still others that don't, but have their own websites. Its also obvious that whether a photogragher posts here or not, has their own website or not, is not an indication on the quality of their work/ability. If all members of this site completed an indepth member profile stating their level of expertise/experience, the critiques could be tailored to the experience level of the member posting the photo. This forum should be a place where honest and constructive critiques from experienced photogs are valued. Constructive criticism will help raise the quality of ALL our efforts, be it newbie, amateur or professional.

interesting topic -- right up my alley as i tend to say exactly how i feel about others work (and prefer the same). i agree, way toooooooo many ass kissers on this site... all that beginner/expert crap is b.s. too. we all know when a picture is good or not so good... a great picture is a bit different but has usually passed the good mark... as far as beginning photographers and where they are supposed to post... that is certainly a valid point and would account for some of the so-so pictures (which in time will get much better)... however, i had always told myself that i wouldn't get a leica (much less spend six grand on photo gear) until i knew how to shoot and considered myself a pretty solid photographer... i personally think that most leica users are either rich men who think they know how to shoot, or spoiled young people who don't know how to shoot at all... as for me, i went to art center on scholarship and shot with the worst piece of shit camera you could find and it wasn't until working for almost five years that i was able to afford a leica much less felt i was ready to use a leica... i can't tell you how much total crap i see when i'm printing that was shot on leica's and other expensive gear... learn the craft first is what i usually say... spend time learning how to expose more correctly and then move up in price...

 

trevor - i like the color stuff but your black and white shots are flat... if you wet printed try a 3 1/2 or a bump for a few extra seconds -- you'll get a deeper black... you might also look into 1/4 black pro-mist on the enlarger lens.

 

 

dpablo

I agree that many poor photos are posted to this forum, and I also agree that this may be a good venue for helping photographers (of all skill levels) to improve their work. My only objection is to folks who proudly post photos and then complain when they receive any degree of less-than-complimentary feedback. At least this process may help some people begin to recognize the stronger and weaker elements in their own photos. As Janet Malcom once wrote, and I'm paraphrasing: Many good photographers could become great photographers simply by burning much of their work.

Douglas, That reminds me of the Ansel Adams quote about the trashcan being the most under-utilized tool in the darkroom.

May I propose a solution ? Whenever a photograph is presented

for criticism, why don't we make it a rule that all responses are

e-mailed directly to the photographer. In this way privacy and

perhaps potential humiliation are avoided. A second e-mail to

Tony can also be sent so as to grade the photograph.

This is a difficult subject at best. Probed deep enough, it could disuade

anyone from revealing their work here. IMO, posting a picture here is an

act of sharing. We all have something to share be it a novices' discovery

of a well explored path, or an accomplished photographers latest

evolution. If someone has a POV concerning any picture, it would

perhaps be better stated in the spirit of sharing their experience, or of

something they have learned from someone else along the way. It makes

people less defensive.

 

I've managed hundreds of creative people during my career as a Creative

Director. I never got anywhere by telling someone their work sucked.

Questions often were more thought provoking. "Did you think of this or

that?". "What was your thought process that led you to this? Have you

tried pushing the envelope of this notion into new territory?" It is

obviously a critique based on opinion (hopefully informed opinion), but

one that encourages consideration of the critique on the part of the

presenter.

 

The best critiques I've received on this forum acknowledged an

accomplishment, yet spurred me on to explore the initial notion further.

Every photograph is a start of the next. It can be horrible to the eyes of

others, yet a leaping off point for that persons' next venture on their own

unique path.

In my experiences of offering creative work (written or photographic) for public comment in workshops, I found it's best to think of the respondents as a focus group, not as a team of critics. There are very few actual critics in the world but plenty of people willing to offer an opinion--which is fine.

 

If you want actual criticism of your photo or project, you would do better to email people off list, folks whose comments you appreciate and whose judgment you trust. There are plenty of sensitive, intelligent people around here who would be happy to sustain an email dialogue about the work.

 

If you want public reaction, post here. If you get comments that the photo sucks, then there you go. You may get some useful nuanced responses. You'll get plenty of praise for the tonality or the proper exposure. But the point is that most of the comments will be reactions, not well considered criticism.

 

Public reaction is useful--don't discount it. If you are trying to sell your photos, it helps to know which ones grab people right away and which ones turn them off. Public reaction, when negative or harsh, can also help you detach yourself emotionally from a photo and evaluate it on its own merits.

 

At a writing workshop for high school kids I once observed, one boy who had just read his short story was receiving comments from the class. "Dude, cool story"; "great"; and "I like it" were the remarks.

 

"Tell me what you really think," he said. "When I want comments like those, I ask my mom."

"Really good, successful snappers would be unlikely to post their pictures here - why should they?"

 

Whenever I think about the ideal web photo forum and constructive criticism site, I think of www.naturephotographers.net. I'm not really into nature photography, besides the ocassional scenic, but we're talking about a fairly wide-ranging level of photographers, with published pros regularly posting as well. If I want a critique I'm sure as hell not going to post it here, what with probably the majority here discussing incessantly Leica products as opposed to photos, I do not see the point. How can I appreciate someone's viewpoint much when the comments are vague and blanketing, and with absolutely none of their work to relate their comments to. Please...