A Delicate Subject

[joseph_barbano]

There are some really good photos posted on this website.

Unfortunately, there are very many that are poor and banal photos,

lacking interest or subject, composition, and proper exposure.

There's more to this than just differences in tastes and style.

Ironically, either out of politeness or political correctness, rarely

are the comments very critical (and perhaps honest). This is

unfortunate and a dis-service to the forum IMO, and perhaps to the

photographer as well.

[doug herr]

I find it easier to give constructive criticism face-to-face than on a

public forum such as this. Without the facial expressions and

vocal inflections that make up a substantial part of personal

communication, I find that critical remarks can too easily be

mistaken for put-downs or outright slams. It takes a skilled and

experienced teacher to present on-line criticism in a positive

light. I also feel unqualified to comment on photography that is

outside my field of expertise, wildlife. Certainly, technical details

and basic composition are nearly universal but as far as subject

interest is concerned, I'm limited in what I have to say.

[terry_rory]

Joseph do you mean the Forum or the whole website?

 

I guess you are a very brave guy (and your portfolio contains nothing but technical and aesthetic masterpieces) if you are now going to become an arbiter of what is good and what is not. Good luck.

 

My own (quite new) portfolio of assorted pics is there for anyone to critique. They are NOT perfect, they are NOT to everyones taste and some may consider them poor and banal. Good, it shows that we all different.

 

Joseph, please start on mine. I will not be upset. I will be one of the 'safer' less volatile members to criticise.

 

I am off now to check out your portfolio. I am expecting a real treat.

 

Thanks.

[terry_rory]

To save time, here is the link....

 

http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=146784

[noah]

The other problem with critiques on a forum such as this is that

the people who post on this forum range from new beginners to

amateurs and pros who have been photographing all of their

lives.

 

I might see a photo that I think is lacking in style and substance,

but if someone is just starting out, it might be an

accomplishment and a good step in the right direction for that

person. So I almost always shy away from the critiques, even

though I normally love to discuss photographs.

[bobtodrick]

One of the main problems in my opinion is the lack of editing that occurs here. But as someone else stated many of the users of forums such as these are newcomers, and one of the hardest things to learn is how to properly self edit. I know a number of shooters who have been at it for years yet still don't know how to edit effectively. But forums such as these are replacing to some degree the 'photo-clubs' of the past, in which skills like these were learned. As long as someone is trying I think it's right to try and nurture them, if that's how you'd like to put it. This is a general forum, not a critique service for pros and semi-pros.

[mark a hrefhttpwww]

"This is unfortunate and a dis-service to the forum IMO, and perhaps to the photographer as well." - I expect you mean yourself with "the photographer". To my humble opinion, if you post a photo here with the subscript "please critique", than everybody should be free to point out whatever critique they have. However, a lot of photo's are posted for very different reasons (lens comparison, composition question, ..), those photographs can be bad (whoever judges that) and do not deserve politically uncorrect comments. Regards Mark Wentink.

[sl]

I read somewhere recently that photography is the #1 hobby in the world with tens of millions participants. Golf is pretty big too. So it makes sense that there will be a big disparity between good, bad and in-between. The important thing is to enjoy what you are doing, makes no difference whether you are an accomplished pro or a duffer. We all see a lot of 'duffer' quality photography I like to think it is important to revel in the enthusiasm of the duffer. Photography is like a craft, you have to learn how to do it and the more you do it the better you get.

[joseph_barbano]

I know there's a range of photographers on this Leica forum from novices to accomplished. Even given that, it's important to provide feedback to the photographer regardless of skill level, perhaps more so for beginners. Lest they will always be duffers. Criticism can be critical and constructive.

[george_b1]

IMHO, what we usually see on this forum - - regardless of whether it is a photograph taken by a true artist or the first attempts by a "newbie - - are our individual video screen projections that can only approximate the actual photograph. Much is usually lost, both in scanning and compression for transmission, and then on the monitors most of us use. Monitor size, type, inherent color accuracy and selection of the number of colors displayed will affect what we see. Personally, about the only valid comments I can make pertain to the subject matter and a gross approximation of composition. Anything else would be based on my guess as to what the photograph *really* looks like.

 

Case in point: We've all seen reproductions of Vermeer paintings in newspapers, slick magazines, and even in museum catalogs. You think you understand the paintings, based on these reproductions; however, if you've ever been fortunate enough to actually see a Vermeer painting, you suddenly realize that none of the reproductions you've seen really portrayed the heart and soul of the original.

[ray .]

Excellent point George. I've noticed some of my own photographs translate well to the screen, and some indeed do not.

[nesrani]

You're quite right, of course, Joseph. But this is more of a social club than anything else, and people don't like to piss off the other club members, understandably enough. Really good, successful snappers would be unlikely to post their pictures here - why should they?

[preston_merchant]

The Photo Critique Requests section of photo.net (the one in which people use any ol' camera) is often quite good--a crop of rich, compelling, even challenging images in a host of styles.

 

Well worth regular perusal.

[bobflores]

IF there is one thing I've learned, there is no accounting for taste or sense of "art". I recently heard on an NPR interview, that these days, in order for a photographer to be considered artistic, his subject has to be "almost unrecognizable, have some sort of 'artistic' out of focus subject, printed very high contrast, and have almost no literal representation". This from an art critic as an international art sale held in Florida last week.

 

The message was that, Dorthea Lange, Ansel Adams, et. al. with their perfect composition, exposure, and focus was passe'.

 

So, given all of that, what is "art"?... this subject has been pounded into the ground. Personally, I don't know if I subcribe to the HCB quote that 'focus is a burguois concept', but I generally don't care TOO much if focus isn't exacly perfect.

 

I also, don't personally enjoy looking at a shallow DOF photo of an ingrown toenail, but apparently some people do.

 

I guess "art", like "beauty" is in the eye of the beholder....

[terry_rory]

Bob, do you mean like this?

 

(I dont have an ingrown toe-nail pic. Sorry.)<div></div>

[kevin m.]

I agree that criticism is best done in person. It will certainly be more effective if you know something of the shooters background, abilities and what they were trying to achieve with a particular photo before you make a comment. On the receiving end, any criticism you get on this forum might be easier to take since there is a degree of anonimity; the posters don't really 'know' you, after all, so it's easier to ignore any comments of the 'your pic sucks' variety.

 

I will say that I have to wonder when someone on this particular forum posts a pic to demonstrate the superior 'bokeh' of their Summinocticron when all the pic really proves is that they should sell the damn thing and use the money to fill their fridge with film until they learn something about lighting and composition.

[preston_merchant]

The other matter that affects the shots posted here is the lack of a true audience for them. Plenty of people around here are competent, even talented, photographers who could produce work of distinction--if they truly set their minds to it.

 

But this board is all about "Leica Photography," which term would be incomprehensible to the luminaries (and Leica users) we champion.

 

So the posted photos tend to coalesce around narrowly defined and sanctioned ideas about street photography and portraiture--which can be pretty mundane, given the small sample of what's posted.

 

Then there's the prevailing notion that this is an equipment forum, not an image forum.

 

Occasionally we get some great series from India, Tibet, the West Bank, Vietnam, the adoption of a child from Asia, protests in New York and Paris, etc. Let's not forget that we've seen some good stuff. We just don't see it very often--which is the nature of good stuff.

[dford]

I agree with Preston. There are quite a few very accomplished photographers that post on this site regularly. (See Ian MacEachern) Still others that don't, but have their own websites. Its also obvious that whether a photogragher posts here or not, has their own website or not, is not an indication on the quality of their work/ability. If all members of this site completed an indepth member profile stating their level of expertise/experience, the critiques could be tailored to the experience level of the member posting the photo. This forum should be a place where honest and constructive critiques from experienced photogs are valued. Constructive criticism will help raise the quality of ALL our efforts, be it newbie, amateur or professional.

[dpablo]

interesting topic -- right up my alley as i tend to say exactly how i feel about others work (and prefer the same). i agree, way toooooooo many ass kissers on this site... all that beginner/expert crap is b.s. too. we all know when a picture is good or not so good... a great picture is a bit different but has usually passed the good mark... as far as beginning photographers and where they are supposed to post... that is certainly a valid point and would account for some of the so-so pictures (which in time will get much better)... however, i had always told myself that i wouldn't get a leica (much less spend six grand on photo gear) until i knew how to shoot and considered myself a pretty solid photographer... i personally think that most leica users are either rich men who think they know how to shoot, or spoiled young people who don't know how to shoot at all... as for me, i went to art center on scholarship and shot with the worst piece of shit camera you could find and it wasn't until working for almost five years that i was able to afford a leica much less felt i was ready to use a leica... i can't tell you how much total crap i see when i'm printing that was shot on leica's and other expensive gear... learn the craft first is what i usually say... spend time learning how to expose more correctly and then move up in price...

 

trevor - i like the color stuff but your black and white shots are flat... if you wet printed try a 3 1/2 or a bump for a few extra seconds -- you'll get a deeper black... you might also look into 1/4 black pro-mist on the enlarger lens.

 

 

dpablo

[douglas k.]

I agree that many poor photos are posted to this forum, and I also agree that this may be a good venue for helping photographers (of all skill levels) to improve their work. My only objection is to folks who proudly post photos and then complain when they receive any degree of less-than-complimentary feedback. At least this process may help some people begin to recognize the stronger and weaker elements in their own photos. As Janet Malcom once wrote, and I'm paraphrasing: Many good photographers could become great photographers simply by burning much of their work.

[kevin m.]

Douglas, That reminds me of the Ansel Adams quote about the trashcan being the most under-utilized tool in the darkroom.

[albert knapp md]

May I propose a solution ? Whenever a photograph is presented

for criticism, why don't we make it a rule that all responses are

e-mailed directly to the photographer. In this way privacy and

perhaps potential humiliation are avoided. A second e-mail to

Tony can also be sent so as to grade the photograph.

[fotografz]

This is a difficult subject at best. Probed deep enough, it could disuade

anyone from revealing their work here. IMO, posting a picture here is an

act of sharing. We all have something to share be it a novices' discovery

of a well explored path, or an accomplished photographers latest

evolution. If someone has a POV concerning any picture, it would

perhaps be better stated in the spirit of sharing their experience, or of

something they have learned from someone else along the way. It makes

people less defensive.

 

I've managed hundreds of creative people during my career as a Creative

Director. I never got anywhere by telling someone their work sucked.

Questions often were more thought provoking. "Did you think of this or

that?". "What was your thought process that led you to this? Have you

tried pushing the envelope of this notion into new territory?" It is

obviously a critique based on opinion (hopefully informed opinion), but

one that encourages consideration of the critique on the part of the

presenter.

 

The best critiques I've received on this forum acknowledged an

accomplishment, yet spurred me on to explore the initial notion further.

Every photograph is a start of the next. It can be horrible to the eyes of

others, yet a leaping off point for that persons' next venture on their own

unique path.

[preston_merchant]

In my experiences of offering creative work (written or photographic) for public comment in workshops, I found it's best to think of the respondents as a focus group, not as a team of critics. There are very few actual critics in the world but plenty of people willing to offer an opinion--which is fine.

 

If you want actual criticism of your photo or project, you would do better to email people off list, folks whose comments you appreciate and whose judgment you trust. There are plenty of sensitive, intelligent people around here who would be happy to sustain an email dialogue about the work.

 

If you want public reaction, post here. If you get comments that the photo sucks, then there you go. You may get some useful nuanced responses. You'll get plenty of praise for the tonality or the proper exposure. But the point is that most of the comments will be reactions, not well considered criticism.

 

Public reaction is useful--don't discount it. If you are trying to sell your photos, it helps to know which ones grab people right away and which ones turn them off. Public reaction, when negative or harsh, can also help you detach yourself emotionally from a photo and evaluate it on its own merits.

 

At a writing workshop for high school kids I once observed, one boy who had just read his short story was receiving comments from the class. "Dude, cool story"; "great"; and "I like it" were the remarks.

 

"Tell me what you really think," he said. "When I want comments like those, I ask my mom."

[james_.1]

"Really good, successful snappers would be unlikely to post their pictures here - why should they?"

 

Whenever I think about the ideal web photo forum and constructive criticism site, I think of www.naturephotographers.net. I'm not really into nature photography, besides the ocassional scenic, but we're talking about a fairly wide-ranging level of photographers, with published pros regularly posting as well. If I want a critique I'm sure as hell not going to post it here, what with probably the majority here discussing incessantly Leica products as opposed to photos, I do not see the point. How can I appreciate someone's viewpoint much when the comments are vague and blanketing, and with absolutely none of their work to relate their comments to. Please...

[vic_.]

"People ask for criticism, but they only want praise." -- W. Somerset Maugham

 

There have been some critics (good photographers with extensive portfolios on this forum) who were hounded into silence because some perceived their bluntness to be an extreme form of rudeness. This is possibly due to differences in grammatical style of different nationalities. Or possibly due to fragile egos. After all, one would surely know that $5,000 worth of Leica guarantees that any "image" penetrating the lens body combination will qualify as high art.

[bobflores]

TREVOR - You could have probably scored a cool $100K at last weeks Modern Art Sale in Florida with that one...

 

Who can say.

 

I still say that good or even "GREAT" photography, may or may not be art. It may just be a terrific representation of the the mood, surroundings, circumstances surrounding the subject at that moment in time.

 

Take for example the photos in National Geographic. Ostensibly some of the best photos around today ( okay, the Magnum folks too ). But I personally cannot imagine taking your typical, or even exeptional Nat Geo Photo, blowing it up, framing it and hanging it on my wall. That's just not their purpose. So, I maybe tonight I'll take a good, hard look at my toenails and start shooting. Who knows? I may just become the next hot thing in art photography ;-)

 

I say, shoot what makes you happy and DAMN the CRITICS!

b~

8-)

[larry_kincaid1]

Frankly, I think that many of the comments on this subject apply to the winning photographs of contests that I have seen in magazines or on the web. Many, of course, may make take your breath away for a moment, but there are many others for which you wonder why they got there at all. "Ordinary," "unremarkable," etc. Those are the ones where you say, "Several of mine are better than that!" These are the ones that encourage you to keep trying; the spectacular ones make you wonder why you bother at all. There may be three categories: 1) "Wow," with almost total consensus, 2) "Aghh," take it away with almost total consensus, and then 3) almost total disagreement, neither good nor bad, and everyone seems to use different criteria.

[travis1]

Joseph, just wondering. Are you more pissed with bad photos or with dishonest (politically correct, polite) critiques to those photos?

[travis1]

It puzzles me. If the photo pisses you off, then don't look at it. If the comments seemed dishonest to you, then don't trust it. Most of us, fortunately, have brains to decide.

[hoyin_lee1]

Praise the good ones, encourage the promising ones and ignore the bad and banal ones. This way, nobody's feeling should get hurt and everyone should get the message.

[joseph_barbano]

"Pissed-off" is not the operative verb. I am not pissed-off with either the quality of the photos or the political correctness. Rather, some photos are good and some not. The criticism of the photos on this site is not consistent, thoughtful (knowledgeable), and constructive. Some, if not many, of the criticisms do not identify for both good and bad pictures, why a photo succeeds or why it fails. I'm not sure if it's politeness or inexperience. After posting this thread yesterday, my observations are: (1) there is a significant number of photographers who visit this site which feel the same as I do about this subject, (2) there are also a large number of photographers who feel that they will dash the spirits of aspiring photographers by being critical (and I don't mean telling them their work "sucks"), and, finally, a number of reponses to this thread seemed indignant and were sarcastic to the entire concept of critical evaluation.

[travis1]

YEA, looks like Joseph wants most of us to go back to basic photography class or a least learn how to properly critique before we can ever post here?

 

Let it go pal..when was the last time you ever gave a critique here anyway?

[Tony Rowlett]

I agree that a dishonest yet polite critique does a disservice to the photographer, but an honest critique that is impolite is much worse and usually any positive "critique" virtues go unnoticed due to the impoliteness.

<p>

Critiquing photography is just as much an art form as photography itself. (Where o' where is that one post that made reference to an honest and polite critique made by Ansel Adams... it was posted on photo.net a few years ago, and it is a great example of hot wo critique.)

<p>

Proper photographic critiques are <b>always polite</b> (even when they need to be negative), and they <b>never</b> contain useless and crude words such as "suck" or "pissed." Being Leica enthusiasts, we can converse better than that. I don't care if we are looked upon as stuck up or elitist (we may even be so), but I do very much care that we're looked on (from out, and from in) as being polite with each other.

[Spearhead]

<i>great example of hot wo critique</i><p>

 

Tibetan? Nepalese? Mongolian? Tony, I'm at a loss for which language you are using.<p>

 

I think not saying anything about a photograph that misses isn't helping the photographer at all.